ESPN Path to the Draft down to top 6 | Page 2 | The Boneyard

ESPN Path to the Draft down to top 6

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uconndennis said:
Zo, Mutombo, Iverson is going to be tough to beat
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Its a toss up 50/50 I think. UConn or Gtown. An argument can be made for either to be #2.
 
They seem to be ranking high off of superstars and HOFer's.

Georgetown
  • HOFer's/Superstars: Mourning, Mutombo, Iverson
  • Good Players: Hibbert, Green, Monroe
  • 19 drafted players w/ 6 active
UNC
  • HOFer's/Superstars: R. Wallace, Jamison, Stackhouse, Carter
  • Good Players: Barnes, Lawson, Felton
  • 38 drafted players w/ 17 active
UConn:
  • HOFer's/Superstars: Allen, Gay, Marshall, Robinson, Hamilton (maybe?)
  • Good Players: Walker, Gordon, Ollie, Butler, Drummond, Okafor
  • 27 drafted players w/ 14 active
You can debate whose UConn's superstars, they're kind of interchangeable. I think we finish 2nd ahead of Georgetown. There's no way anyone is ranking higher than UNC.
 
So which UConn players are going to be ranked 1-6 ?

My guess:
1. Ray Allen
2. Rip Hamilton
3. Cliff Robinson
4. Caron Butler
5. Rudy Gay
Sixth Man: Donyell Marshall
 
I think Gtown has a depth problem. They get a little boost from the recent Green/Hibbert/Monroe group, but it kinda stops there. Plus they can't field a team - no guards other than Iverson (not sure if that really matters). I guess it depends on what they favor - two HOFers (maybe 3) vs one HOFer (I think VC makes it) and a lot more depth. I thought Gtown would go a couple notches ago, so I've underrated them.

UNC depends a little on what you think of Carter-Wallace-Stackhouse-Jamison vs Rip-Ray-Caron-Cliff. All had great careers and periods of dominance. Ray eclipses Carter. Rip was actually traded for Stackhouse and the Pistons won that trade easily. Caron and Jamison, and Cliff and Wallace are probably close to equals, with perhaps Wallace getting an edge.

Now you go Kemba v Felton. Okafor v Montross, Burrell v Marvin Williams, Gay v Barnes, Donyell v Hansbrough, Drummond v Ed Davis, Gordon v Lawson and on down the line. I'm sure I'm missing someone.

Feels really close.
 
CTBasketball said:
They seem to be ranking high off of superstars and HOFer's.

Georgetown

  • [ ]HOFer's/Superstars: Mourning, Mutombo, Iverson
    [ ]Good Players: Hibbert, Green, Monroe
    [ ]19 drafted players w/ 6 active
UNC

  • [ ]HOFer's/Superstars: R. Wallace, Jamison, Stackhouse, Carter
    [ ]Good Players: Barnes, Lawson, Felton
    [ ]38 drafted players w/ 17 active
UConn:

  • [ ]HOFer's/Superstars: Allen, Gay, Marshall, Robinson, Hamilton (maybe?)
    [ ]Good Players: Walker, Gordon, Ollie, Butler, Drummond, Okafor
    [ ]27 drafted players w/ 14 active
You can debate whose UConn's superstars, they're kind of interchangeable. I think we finish 2nd ahead of Georgetown. There's no way anyone is ranking higher than UNC.
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Butler was an All-Star. Deserves to be in the top row ahead of Gay or Marshall (Marshall had a solid career after being initially labeled a bust, but fell short of star status). Hamilton is a top-row guy: he was a multiple All-Star and major part of a title (and a near miss).

Possible Ray may be the difference in a narrow edge over UNC - clear first-ballot HOFer, and depending on how you feel about VC, Carolina might have none.
 
CTBasketball said:
They seem to be ranking high off of superstars and HOFer's.

Georgetown

  • [ ]HOFer's/Superstars: Mourning, Mutombo, Iverson
    [ ]Good Players: Hibbert, Green, Monroe
    [ ]19 drafted players w/ 6 active
UNC


  • [ ]HOFer's/Superstars: R. Wallace, Jamison, Stackhouse, Carter
    [ ]Good Players: Barnes, Lawson, Felton
    [ ]38 drafted players w/ 17 active
UConn:


  • [ ]HOFer's/Superstars: Allen, Gay, Marshall, Robinson, Hamilton (maybe?)
    [ ]Good Players: Walker, Gordon, Ollie, Butler, Drummond, Okafor
    [ ]27 drafted players w/ 14 active
You can debate whose UConn's superstars, they're kind of interchangeable. I think we finish 2nd ahead of Georgetown. There's no way anyone is ranking higher than UNC.
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Ray is the only one who belongs in that HOFer/Superstar category, possibly Rip because of his college career combined with his NBA career but thats it. lol @ Rudy and Donyell, cmon. You would probably be better off creating another distinction, Caron did far more in his career than Rudy has so far.
 
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Marat said:
So which UConn players are going to be ranked 1-6 ?

My guess:
1. Ray Allen
2. Rip Hamilton
3. Cliff Robinson
4. Caron Butler
5. Rudy Gay
Sixth Man: Donyell Marshall
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Sounds right. Don't think you can put Kemba there yet after one good season, unless you are trying to balance positions, which they are not. Okafor probably ends up a cut below Marshall for sixth man. Ben could have been there, too - feel like he was on his way and the change of scenery blew it for him. Burrell had a solid run, but it was too short.
 
aceboon said:
Ray is the only one who belongs in that HOFer/Superstar category, possibly Rip because of his college career combined with his NBA career but thats it. lol @ Rudy and Donyell, cmon. You would probably be better off creating another distinction Caron did far more in his career than Rudy has so far.
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I don't think of Jamison, Stackhouse and Wallace in that category, either. I know Stackhouse averaged 30 one year as a chucker, and Wallace had a pretty damn good career with a lot of deep playoff runs. Carter reached that elite/superstar level for a little while though, I think.

Mutombo as a "superstar" is debatable. Averaged 9 ppg in his career. Led the league in rebounding and blocks a couple times, so you can make a case that he was dominant within his role, and that's enough to reach exalted status.
 
UConn has a decent shot at #1. Could help with recruiting. Being named by ESPN as a top 3 school to get to the NBA in addition to that article where UConn was #2 in NBA salaries last year shouldn't hurt.
 
Gurleyman said:
I don't think of Jamison, Stackhouse and Wallace in that category, either. I know Stackhouse averaged 30 one year as a chucker, and Wallace had a pretty damn good career with a lot of deep playoff runs. Carter reached that elite/superstar level for a little while though, I think.

Mutombo as a "superstar" is debatable. Averaged 9 ppg in his career. Led the league in rebounding and blocks a couple times, so you can make a case that he was dominant within his role, and that's enough to reach exalted status.
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Just noticing that now, I had zoomed past that and went straight to UConn. Yea there definitely needs to be another level created b/w good player & HOF/Superstar in his post. There are truly only a handful of superstars in the league at one time, it definitely doesn't apply to guys like Jamison, Stack, and Wallace.
 
aceboon said:
Ray is the only one who belongs in that HOFer/Superstar category, possibly Rip because of his college career combined with his NBA career but thats it. lol @ Rudy and Donyell, cmon. You would probably be better off creating another distinction, Caron did far more in his career than Rudy has so far.
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Yeah - there's a notch between HOF/superstar and good player that a lot of these people fall into for all three teams. I'd say only Allen, Mourning, and Iverson reach that level for sure, and Carter is on the cusp. There's a whole lot of "elite" guys at UConn and UNC that weren't quite HOF/Superstar types but bring a lot to the table.
 
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UNC I still think will be #1 just because of their name. Fair? no.
 
I think UNC has a legit case, but it won't be because of their name. They do produce great pros. Ray over Carter on the Olympic team was a legit controversy. Stackhouse did average 30 ppg.

And let's be honest - the arbitrary choice of 1989 as a start (when they went to two rounds) was a huge advantage to us. Move back five years and they get that Jordan guy on their list. Move up one year and we lose Cliff. Move back 10 years to Bird-Magic and the start of ESPN and all we get added to our list is about a dozen games with the Mavs from Corny Thompson and we might not be top 10.
 
I think we're underestimating Okafor a little. He's not Dwight Howard (though he might not be much worse, all things considered), but he averaged a double-double each of his first five years, and is close to that for his career. He has dropped off noticeably in recent years, but you could put him above Donyell, I'd think
 
Donyell ended up with a better career than people think, too. He was labeled a bust after a year or two, but became a pretty solid pro - peaking as a 15+10 guy. He was close to All-Star caliber in Utah, when his numbers were around 15+7, but he was playing a key role on a top team and was more efficient than he was early in his career. His career averages (11.2, 6.7) are weighed down by hanging on for a while as a guy who stands in the corner and chucks (although he does still share the NBA record for threes in a game).

I think Okafor also has a case as a consistent double-double guy for a while, although he never did figure out how to be a scorer in the NBA. When he was drafted, I was convinced he would develop a reliable 15-18 foot jumper and be the type of guy who could average 15, but get you 20-25 on any given night, but it didn't happen. I'm hoping in his later years he can become a hustle/role player on one of the top teams in the league (like a Haslem, when he was actually in the rotation) - get a ring or two and leave more of a mark. Some of it is dumb luck with contracts, cap space, etc. It seems that we are in more of a floor-spacing era, which means that people may prefer that their rebounding specialists can also spot up.
 
Donyell did have a good run in Utah. But man did his career get ugly at the end. On those Cleveland teams with LeBron he was the prototypical shooter who can't shoot.
 
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I think it's fairly clear cut. UNC's bevy of All-Stars in the 90's will push them over the top. Our depth is much better than Georgetown's, despite their top-heaviness.

#2 is pretty damn good.
 
Gurleyman said:
I think UNC has a legit case, but it won't be because of their name. They do produce great pros. Ray over Carter on the Olympic team was a legit controversy. Stackhouse did average 30 ppg.
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Don't know why that was. If I'm starting a team, I'm taking Ray over Carter 100 times out of 100. Unless we are getting big marketing dollars....Carter's dunking is legit and sells.
 
Inyatkin said:
Donyell did have a good run in Utah. But man did his career get ugly at the end. On those Cleveland teams with LeBron he was the prototypical shooter who can't shoot.
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That would be the 'Antoine Walker' award.
 
intlzncster said:
Shouldn't he get superstar status for the finger wag? I mean, hardly ever got t'd up for the wag, it was that strong.
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I have a Mutumbo bobble head who's finger also bobbles. I have nothing to add to the conversation, except that I am huge fan of the finger wag.
 
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intlzncster said:
Don't know why that was. If I'm starting a team, I'm taking Ray over Carter 100 times out of 100. Unless we are getting big marketing dollars....Carter's dunking is legit and sells.
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Carter at his peak was better than Ray at his peak. But Ray's peak lasted a lot longer, and as complementary players, Ray's been better.
 
Carter was really good around 2000, and Ray was still on the upswing of his career. Ray got the edge because of the need for pure shooters in the international game, but it was a contentious decision. I remember it led to Carter coming out and basically punking Ray one day to send a message - clocked him with an elbow, dropped 50 on the night, etc. The rematch a week or two later, Ray dropped 25 in the first quarter in just an epic "f-u" performance (or a "get those motherbleepin ropes outta here" performance, if you will) and coasted from there to a 35-point night and a blowout win.
 
nomar said:
Carter at his peak was better than Ray at his peak. But Ray's peak lasted a lot longer, and as complementary players, Ray's been better.
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Although I agree with you, even that is really close. Carter's best season scoring was 27.6 and Ray's was 26.4. Carter, being a little bigger, would typically average a rebound more per game (6 rpg to 5 rpg) at their best. They were both second-team All-NBA once and third-team once. But without looking at the stats, I feel like there's an abstract sense that Carter hit a level of "any night you tune in, he might score 40" that perhaps Ray didn't quite reach.
 
nomar said:
Carter at his peak was better than Ray at his peak. But Ray's peak lasted a lot longer, and as complementary players, Ray's been better.
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Carter was more show than go. Put up big numbers but was soft as . If I need a shot, I'm taking Ray every time.
 
Gurleyman said:
Although I agree with you, even that is really close. Carter's best season scoring was 27.6 and Ray's was 26.4. Carter, being a little bigger, would typically average a rebound more per game (6 rpg to 5 rpg) at their best. They were both second-team All-NBA once and third-team once. But without looking at the stats, I feel like there's an abstract sense that Carter hit a level of "any night you tune in, he might score 40" that perhaps Ray didn't quite reach.
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Yah but if you actually wanted to win the game, you'd take Ray. Carter is one of the greatest 'underachieving winners' in the NBA. So friggin' talented, but didn't have that 'it' factor.
 
intlzncster said:
Yah but if you actually wanted to win the game, you'd take Ray. Carter is one of the greatest 'underachieving winners' in the NBA. So friggin' talented, but didn't have that 'it' factor.
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There's some truth to that in hindsight, but at the time, neither had won anything - just put up some numbers on bad teams. Ray was coming into his own in Milwaukee, still two years away from his ECF run. Carter was averaging 25+ in Toronto.
 
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