ESPN Path to the Draft down to top 6

[intlzncster]

I think UNC has a legit case, but it won't be because of their name. They do produce great pros. Ray over Carter on the Olympic team was a legit controversy. Stackhouse did average 30 ppg.

Don't know why that was. If I'm starting a team, I'm taking Ray over Carter 100 times out of 100. Unless we are getting big marketing dollars....Carter's dunking is legit and sells.

 

[intlzncster]

Donyell did have a good run in Utah. But man did his career get ugly at the end. On those Cleveland teams with LeBron he was the prototypical shooter who can't shoot.

That would be the 'Antoine Walker' award.

 

[intlzncster]

Mutombo is legendary: http://rumorsontheinternets.org/201...d-where-was-it-uttered-an-roti-investigation/

Shouldn't he get superstar status for the finger wag? I mean, hardly ever got t'd up for the wag, it was that strong.

 

[specialisthusky]

Shouldn't he get superstar status for the finger wag? I mean, hardly ever got t'd up for the wag, it was that strong.

I have a Mutumbo bobble head who's finger also bobbles. I have nothing to add to the conversation, except that I am huge fan of the finger wag.

 

[nomar]

Don't know why that was. If I'm starting a team, I'm taking Ray over Carter 100 times out of 100. Unless we are getting big marketing dollars....Carter's dunking is legit and sells.

Carter at his peak was better than Ray at his peak. But Ray's peak lasted a lot longer, and as complementary players, Ray's been better.

 

[Gurleyman]

Carter was really good around 2000, and Ray was still on the upswing of his career. Ray got the edge because of the need for pure shooters in the international game, but it was a contentious decision. I remember it led to Carter coming out and basically punking Ray one day to send a message - clocked him with an elbow, dropped 50 on the night, etc. The rematch a week or two later, Ray dropped 25 in the first quarter in just an epic "f-u" performance (or a "get those motherbleepin ropes outta here" performance, if you will) and coasted from there to a 35-point night and a blowout win.

 

[Gurleyman]

Carter at his peak was better than Ray at his peak. But Ray's peak lasted a lot longer, and as complementary players, Ray's been better.

Although I agree with you, even that is really close. Carter's best season scoring was 27.6 and Ray's was 26.4. Carter, being a little bigger, would typically average a rebound more per game (6 rpg to 5 rpg) at their best. They were both second-team All-NBA once and third-team once. But without looking at the stats, I feel like there's an abstract sense that Carter hit a level of "any night you tune in, he might score 40" that perhaps Ray didn't quite reach.

 

[intlzncster]

Carter at his peak was better than Ray at his peak. But Ray's peak lasted a lot longer, and as complementary players, Ray's been better.

Carter was more show than go. Put up big numbers but was soft as . If I need a shot, I'm taking Ray every time.

 

[intlzncster]

Although I agree with you, even that is really close. Carter's best season scoring was 27.6 and Ray's was 26.4. Carter, being a little bigger, would typically average a rebound more per game (6 rpg to 5 rpg) at their best. They were both second-team All-NBA once and third-team once. But without looking at the stats, I feel like there's an abstract sense that Carter hit a level of "any night you tune in, he might score 40" that perhaps Ray didn't quite reach.

Yah but if you actually wanted to win the game, you'd take Ray. Carter is one of the greatest 'underachieving winners' in the NBA. So friggin' talented, but didn't have that 'it' factor.

 

[Gurleyman]

Yah but if you actually wanted to win the game, you'd take Ray. Carter is one of the greatest 'underachieving winners' in the NBA. So friggin' talented, but didn't have that 'it' factor.

There's some truth to that in hindsight, but at the time, neither had won anything - just put up some numbers on bad teams. Ray was coming into his own in Milwaukee, still two years away from his ECF run. Carter was averaging 25+ in Toronto.

 

[Inyatkin]

Vince Carter's long slide to mediocrity made people forget what he had going in Toronto, I guess. It wasn't just putting up big numbers on a bad team.

 

[RS9999X]

We've lived through the debates if whether Uconn was legit Top 25 program (1997) A legit Sweet 16 program (2002) An Elite program (2007) . A Final Four Program on a trumped up suspension charge (2012).

This one's been a long time coming. I'm exhausted.

 

[Gurleyman]

Vince Carter's long slide to mediocrity made people forget what he had going in Toronto, I guess. It wasn't just putting up big numbers on a bad team.

People on this board forget what Ray did in Seattle, and we're UConn fans. He was really good there - averaged 25 a night and it wasn't even really his best three-point shooting years percentage wise (i.e. he took tough shots against teams geared to stopping him). How many people even know about his playoff series vs. Sacramento (granted it was only first round), when he averaged almost 30? With a 2-1 lead and the Kings up 19 looking to even the series, he went gonzo and scored 45 on 18-27 shooting, capping it off with a ridiculous three to seal it. Start this video at 2:30:



He followed that up with 30 in the clincher to end it in five, even though the Kings doubled him over the place, and with the Sonics only up by two after a Peja three, he drove to the hoop through three guys with 12 seconds left for the bucket to seal it right at the end of the shot clock. It was a frickin' big-time play, but so forgotten I can't even find a highlight of it. They took the eventual champ Spurs to six in the next round, losing on a Duncan game winner with 0.5 left in game six (doubt they would have won game 7 in SA - Rashard Lewis and Vladamir Radmanovic were both done with injuries). Ray missed the ensuing three off the inbounds with 0.5 left, but it wasn't a shot so much as a prayer/chuck with Duncan in his face that would have been a miracle.

Wish they could have kept that crew together for another run at it, but half the team went elsewhere and Nate McMillan was hired away by the Blazers, and the path from the penthouse to the outhouse in the Western Conference in those years didn't take much.

 

[Inyatkin]

The memory of Ray's overall game has been dimmed by his three-point greatness. It gives the impression that's all he ever was.

 

[tzznandrew]

People on this board forget what Ray did in Seattle, and we're UConn fans. He was really good there - averaged 25 a night and it wasn't even really his best three-point shooting years percentage wise (i.e. he took tough shots against teams geared to stopping him). How many people even know about his playoff series vs. Sacramento (granted it was only first round), when he averaged almost 30? With a 2-1 lead and the Kings up 19 looking to even the series, he went gonzo and scored 45 on 18-27 shooting, capping it off with a ridiculous three to seal it. Start this video at 2:30:



He followed that up with 30 in the clincher to end it in five, even though the Kings doubled him over the place, and with the Sonics only up by two after a Peja three, he drove to the hoop through three guys with 12 seconds left for the bucket to seal it right at the end of the shot clock. It was a frickin' big-time play, but so forgotten I can't even find a highlight of it. They took the eventual champ Spurs to six in the next round, losing on a Duncan game winner with 0.5 left in game six (doubt they would have won game 7 in SA - Rashard Lewis and Vladamir Radmanovic were both done with injuries). Ray missed the ensuing three off the inbounds with 0.5 left, but it wasn't a shot so much as a prayer/chuck with Duncan in his face that would have been a miracle.

Wish they could have kept that crew together for another run at it, but half the team went elsewhere and Nate McMillan was hired away by the Blazers, and the path from the penthouse to the outhouse in the Western Conference in those years didn't take much.

People even forget about his epic 51 points against Chicago when he was in Boston.

 

[TracerBullet]

The memory of Ray's overall game has been dimmed by his three-point greatness. It gives the impression that's all he ever was.

^^^This. Most people forget Ray's overall talent since he went to Boston. The year before in Seattle he averaged 26.4 ppg. He sacrificed the most out of Boston's big three.

 

[intlzncster]

There's some truth to that in hindsight, but at the time, neither had won anything - just put up some numbers on bad teams. Ray was coming into his own in Milwaukee, still two years away from his ECF run. Carter was averaging 25+ in Toronto.

Which is a good argument why there was controversy at the time. I just don't see how anyone, in hindsight, could take Carter in a contest that meant anything.

 

[Gurleyman]

Which is a good argument why there was controversy at the time. I just don't see how anyone, in hindsight, could take Carter in a contest that meant anything.

Agreed. Now it should be a no contest. When they made the Olympics selection in 2000, it caused some issues - some thought Ray didn't deserve it. Carter peaked early in Toronto and was at his best around then and was probably a better player at the time, but they leaned toward Ray just for another pure shooter, a key part of the international game.

 

[CTBasketball]

When I think of Vince Carter, I think of slam dunks and that Slam Dunk Contest in 2000. Not as a scorer. Sure he put up big numbers, but his superstardom was created because he was a high flyer. Ray on the other hand was a great all around player in his prime, and a great scorer. I'd rather have Ray's 3-pt ability than Vince's dunking ability any day. 3 points over 2 c'mon. We're really not that stupid are we?

 

[Mike Honcho]

When I think of Vince Carter, I think of slam dunks and that Slam Dunk Contest in 2000. Not as a scorer. Sure he put up big numbers, but his superstardom was created because he was a high flyer. Ray on the other hand was a great all around player in his prime, and a great scorer. I'd rather have Ray's 3-pt ability than Vince's dunking ability any day. 3 points over 2 c'mon. We're really not that stupid are we?

I think you're falling into the same trap that Inyatkin just pointed out. Just as Ray will be recalled as a 3 point specialist, Carter will be recalled as a dunker. That's doing both a disservice. They were much more complete players than the public will give them credit for. It's the availability bias at play.

 

[BoatShow]

I'm pretty sure in his later years Carter has had some of the best 3 pt numbers in the league.

 

[babysheep]

So Kuntucky at 4 means ourselves, UNC and Gtown will make up the top 3

 

[willinphilly]

I think you're falling into the same trap that Inyatkin just pointed out. Just as Ray will be recalled as a 3 point specialist, Carter will be recalled as a dunker. That's doing both a disservice. They were much more complete players than the public will give them credit for. It's the availability bias at play.

Precisely. People forget that he was a uber-athletic guy who could throw down. Not the same level as Carter, but not too shabby. My first memory of Ray Allen was his freshman year came against Virginia (i think). He drove the lane, I thought he'd lay in it, and then he kept rising, rising, and threw it down. If anyone can find that clip, I'd be very grateful.

 

[sammydabiz]

So Kuntucky at 4 means ourselves, UNC and Gtown will make up the top 3

Capt Obvious to the Rescue! Thanks for clearing that up

 

[UConnSwag11]