Elam Ending

[Waquoit]

Anyone else take a gut at UConn called "Philosophy of Sports"? The instructor posited that an intentional foul is cheating. I immediately thought that was ridiculous. But my thinking quickly reversed. Intentional fouls are cheating. Intentionally breaking the rules for competitive advantage is cheating, period. That breaking the rules in these situations is expected is a major flaw in the game. It's a flaw that hasn't be able to be fixed to date with the punishment approach. But this flaw is eliminated with the Elam Ending. And by not requiring our student-athletes to cheat, it's the moral choice as well.

 

[whaler11]

Anyone else take a gut at UConn called "Philosophy of Sports"? The instructor posited that an intentional foul is cheating. I immediately thought that was ridiculous. But my thinking quickly reversed. Intentional fouls are cheating. Intentionally breaking the rules for competitive advantage is cheating, period. That breaking the rules in these situations is expected is a major flaw in the game. It's a flaw that hasn't be able to be fixed to date with the punishment approach. But this flaw is eliminated with the Elam Ending. And by not requiring our student-athletes to cheat, it's the moral choice as well.

It’s not breaking the rules....

 

[Dogdeacon]

It’s not breaking the rules....

I can't think of any other sport where repeated and constant committing fouls/penalty or other rules violation is such an accepted part of the strategy. We've gotten used to it, the semantics of whether its 'cheating' or not aren't important as it absolutely is not in the spirit of the game.

 

[whaler11]

I can't think of any other sport where repeated and constant committing fouls/penalty or other rules violation is such an accepted part of the strategy. We've gotten used to it, the semantics of whether its 'cheating' or not aren't important as it absolutely is not in the spirit of the game.

It’s not cheating though.

FWIW soccer has plenty of strategic fouls.

The CFB penalty for DPI rewards the defense at times.

It’s not even gaming the rules. It it was thy would increase the penalties.

 

[Waquoit]

It’s not even gaming the rules. It it was thy would increase the penalties.

They've tried. But the cure was deemed worse than the disease

 

[Dogdeacon]

It’s not cheating though.

FWIW soccer has plenty of strategic fouls.

The CFB penalty for DPI rewards the defense at times.

It’s not even gaming the rules. It it was thy would increase the penalties.

How can your reply to me saying it is semantics be "It's not cheating though" ? That is what I said. 'Strategic fouls' in soccer, football or basketball is definitely 'gaming the rules'; I'd define a strategic foul as 'a purposeful rule violation to force or accept the lesser of two bad outcomes' if that's not gaming the rules we are back to arguing over semantics which thus far eludes your grasp. I can't make a point if you are gaming the rules of grammar solely to further your objectives.

The difference in basketball vs soccer or football is it occurs far more regularly & frequently (multiple plays within a game, a high % of games) and negatively impacts both the time and flow at arguably the most important point of many games. Soccer and football don't have a time loss etc...

 

[TKs]

TBT game I watched recently with the Elam Ending still had a bunch of late fouling by the trailing team. Trailing team was down about 8 points and was well under the team foul limit. They became super aggressive/physical (basically hacking the out of the other team) trying to create turnovers on D hoping the refs might miss a foul call and they would get a turnover as a result. If the ref calls the foul no harm done, game stops, clock stops and leading team gets no free throws and has to inbound the ball. This happened about 5 times in last few minutes. Lots of starts and stops. Did not make for a smooth ending. Did like the game ending shot though.

 

[husky429]

I agree that end-game fouling needs to have more of a consequence.

But the solution needs to involve overtime and clock-management skills. Elam ending takes a lot of that away. Those are integral parts of the game that make it enjoyable to watch for fans like me. This solution feels as gimmicky as advancing the ball to half court (which I hate).

Fouling in the late-game has been incentivized. Start making free throws fellas. Or come up with another solution. 2 free throws and the ball under 2 minutes for each half. Start calling intentional fouls. I don't know.

 

[temery]

I agree that end-game fouling needs to have more of a consequence.

But the solution needs to involve overtime and clock-management skills. Elam ending takes a lot of that away. Those are integral parts of the game that make it enjoyable to watch for fans like me. This solution feels as gimmicky as advancing the ball to half court (which I hate).

Fouling in the late-game has been incentivized. Start making free throws fellas. Or come up with another solution. 2 free throws and the ball under 2 minutes for each half. Start calling intentional fouls. I don't know.

The last two minutes of a game is little more than sloth . We all know how it's going to end, but it's painful to watch.

(Yes, in graduate school I was tortured with a video and presentation on sloth reproduction. The only thing that made it bearable was the girl behind me moaning, "faaaaaastuuuuuuur, faaaaastuuuuur ..." during the video)

 

[Dogdeacon]

The last two minutes of a game is little more than sloth . We all know how it's going to end, but it's painful to watch.

(Yes, in graduate school I was tortured with a video and presentation on sloth reproduction. The only thing that made it bearable was the girl behind me moaning, "faaaaaastuuuuuuur, faaaaastuuuuur ..." during the video)

I've got a lot of questions.
Was she good looking (not the sloth, the girl behind you)?
If so what was your follow-up line?
I'm thinking either:
1) So you like it faster than sloths do?
2) You think that's slow love making, I will make you beg

 

[the Q]

I agree that end-game fouling needs to have more of a consequence.

But the solution needs to involve overtime and clock-management skills. Elam ending takes a lot of that away. Those are integral parts of the game that make it enjoyable to watch for fans like me. This solution feels as gimmicky as advancing the ball to half court (which I hate).

Fouling in the late-game has been incentivized. Start making free throws fellas. Or come up with another solution. 2 free throws and the ball under 2 minutes for each half. Start calling intentional fouls. I don't know.

I disagree it “needs” that. Especially in the nba where you have that ridiculous advance the ball after a time out rule.

 

[temery]

I've got a lot of questions.
Was she good looking (not the sloth, the girl behind you)?
If so what was your follow-up line?
I'm thinking either:
1) So you like it faster than sloths do?
2) You think that's slow love making, I will make you beg

The entire section was laughing too hard to notice anything else.

 

[J187Money]

I saw them use this in that TBT Tournament - I liked it. The NIT needs juice. Love the idea.

 

[BlueMAB]

come up with another solution. 2 free throws and the ball under 2 minutes for each half. Start calling intentional fouls. I don't know.

let's say they do that. teams will not foul right? so then the other team just kills the clock, making the games less competitive, less compelling, and more likely to be turned off (or fans leaving early). We're now just waiting for the team to kill the shot clock, and shorten the game.

With the Elam ending, fouling is penalized (as it should be) but more importantly, the incentive to foul is removed. Your suggestion of making the penalty even more harsh would make teams less likely to foul, but it would also make the end of games less compelling.

With Elam, good defense/rebounding/good offense are rewarded. And that's far more compelling than free throw shooting contests.

 

[auror]

Great Elam ending example in TBT semis.

Team Jimmer down 4 (or 5?) starting Elam. Other team gets within 2 of target, Jimmers get a few stops, cuts it to 2 behind (4 off target), gets a fast break. Jimmer misses a contested layup to tie it (2 off), other team goes back the other way and gets a transition dunk to win it.

Fun.

If non-Elam, Jimmer's team would have been fouling (especially after missed layup) and it would have added 10 minutes of real time. Instead we got nice, quick, game-winning dunk.