Dupree and DT Join - BG still being evaluated [merged thread]

[phil sampieri]

Hey Phil, you wouldn't have happened to play baseball with a Mike Sciortino would ya have???

No Mike, I'm 79 years old, played a lot of baseball but you may be thinking about Chris Samperi my cousins son.

 

[easttexastrash]

Actually, it was Tina who guarded Cambage; AJ guarded Lauren Jackson for the most part. I re-watched the game not too long ago. Cambage's ineffectiveness in the 2nd half (0 points) was a combination of fatigue and Tina putting her body on her before she could set up in the lane. AJ played 10 very effective minutes and contained LJ.

I also felt that Cambage fizzled out in the second half due to fatigue. She gave almost all she had in the first half. I suspect that she will be in much better shape now and will be prepared to give a full effort for the entire game.

 

[Orangutan]

The stats from the WNBA indicate that Lavender is a better offensive player and Dolson is a better defensive player, I didn't think her defense looked good against Canada, but maybe it's just a thing with adjusting to international basketball.

If you're picking purely on defense, Dolson is the pick. Overall, advanced metrics like Lavender a little better but some of the things Dolson does well do necessarily make the stat sheet.

Forced to choose, I'd probably take Dolson because in a couple of years I think she will be much better than Lavender. If it's close now, I'd give her the tiebreak.

 

[easttexastrash]

Is it moot? I view BG as someone recovering from an injury and thus she could still get reinjured. If I were on the committee, I still think I'd want a backup.

Do we think that Charles is incapable of playing the 5? We seem to have plenty of firepower at the 4 with Nneka, Stewart and Dupree. It seems to me that Charles and Griner would be able to play the 5 with Stewart pulling some time at that position if necessary. I can't imagine that anyone would think that Dolson and Lavender would be more capable of playing the 5 than Charles, but I could be wrong.

 

[easttexastrash]

The stats from the WNBA indicate that Lavender is a better offensive player and Dolson is a better defensive player, I didn't think her defense looked good against Canada, but maybe it's just a thing with adjusting to international basketball.

If you're picking purely on defense, Dolson is the pick. Overall, advanced metrics like Lavender a little better but some of the things Dolson does well do necessarily make the stat sheet.

Forced to choose, I'd probably take Dolson because in a couple of years I think she will be much better than Lavender. If it's close now, I'd give her the tiebreak.

I agree that Dolson has a lot more upside than Lavender and I can see her as part of Team USA for years to come. She is a big body that can lean on opposing centers and can shoot the 15-footer. We are going to need big bodies to match up with Cambage going forward. The only issue I can see with her is the ability to cover players that can extend the defense away from the basket.

 

[UcMiami]

Do we think that Charles is incapable of playing the 5? We seem to have plenty of firepower at the 4 with Nneka, Stewart and Dupree. It seems to me that Charles and Griner would be able to play the 5 with Stewart pulling some time at that position if necessary. I can't imagine that anyone would think that Dolson and Lavender would be more capable of playing the 5 than Charles, but I could be wrong.

I think he is suggesting if BG is on the team and then in the third game has an issue with her eye that prevents her from continuing, then Charles would have no back-up. That was the situation with Sylvia going into the last WC as she was nursing an injury and no one was sure she would be able to go 9 games straight so the USA committee added Appel as insurance. Same sort of thing happened with the Olympic team and the choice of Jones as insurance as a PF/Center.
I think the eye thing is probably a less likely 'recurrence' if BG gets cleared to join the team, but they might still go that direction.

 

[UcMiami]

The stats from the WNBA indicate that Lavender is a better offensive player and Dolson is a better defensive player, I didn't think her defense looked good against Canada, but maybe it's just a thing with adjusting to international basketball.

If you're picking purely on defense, Dolson is the pick. Overall, advanced metrics like Lavender a little better but some of the things Dolson does well do necessarily make the stat sheet.

Forced to choose, I'd probably take Dolson because in a couple of years I think she will be much better than Lavender. If it's close now, I'd give her the tiebreak.

I think that is probably the strongest argument in favor of Dolson over Lavender - the future and not the present. But I do think the international game with a few exceptions tends toward more mobile centers with good mid-range to 3 point range. That is slowly changing in the US as well - C. Paris type centers are more difficult to find in HS as everyone wants to shoot threes. CD and Geno have both talked about that change.

Edit: Look at the bigs in the incoming freshman for example: Turner, Wilson. Everyone wants to be the next Jackson, Parker, Stewart and not the next Paris/Fowles.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I think it is a silly argument in some ways. Both players have shortcomings and both have plus sides. Some are related to their skill set, some only to their experience and again, both pluses and minuses on both issues.

As above, I think the idea of the "future" may tilt it in Dolson's favor, as well as presumed familiarity with general system and expectations.

 

[geneticrex]

No Mike, I'm 79 years old, played a lot of baseball but you may be thinking about Chris Samperi my cousins son.

That's exactly who I'm thinking of. I saw the last name and just now remembered that it was Chris......

I'm Michael's older and FAR wiser brother (with the questionable memory).

 

[Beemer]

Look further down my boyo - Jim refuted his post and confirmed the Yet to be determined story re BG....FYI

For the record I'm not a boyo

I hope Griner can go. I read a Norwich Bulletin article today that said USA is thin in the post this year.

 

[easttexastrash]

For the record I'm not a boyo

I hope Griner can go. I read a Norwich Bulletin article today that said USA is thin in the post this year.

None of our post players are that thin. Maybe they were thinking of Dewanna Bonner.

 

[Beemer]

None of our post players are that thin. Maybe they were thinking of Dewanna Bonner.

LOL I believe the writer meant thin as in not many

 

[easttexastrash]

LOL I believe the writer meant thin as in not many

In all seriousness, we do need BG ASAP. We are not looking very strong in the paint.

 

[Beemer]

In all seriousness, we do need BG ASAP. We are not looking very strong in the paint.

I agree. Apparently the game vs Australia today was closer than it should have been:

http://www.swishappeal.com/2014/9/8...team-2014-fiba-world-championship-storystream

 

[ChicagoGG]

I saw in a recap that Cambage fell down in the first half and did not play the rest of the game. Does anyone know what happened? Is she okay?

 

[UcMiami]

I agree. Apparently the game vs Australia today was closer than it should have been:

http://www.swishappeal.com/2014/9/8...team-2014-fiba-world-championship-storystream

Thanks for posting - they are apparently the only non-USA basketball folks in Paris this weekend from stateside

 

[dtbtbtb]

We need BG! get her on a boat to Europe and then a train to Istanbul so she does not need to fly…by the 27th she’ll make it there

 

[easttexastrash]

We need BG! get her on a boat to Europe and then a train to Istanbul so she does not need to fly…by the 27th she’ll make it there

BG also enjoys kayaking and I hear can get up to a pretty nice clip.

 

[baggerbob]

By the time this world championship is over, the world will know about Stewie, they were talking about a spark off the bench, I believe she will supply it.

 

[OneTrickPony]

I saw in a recap that Cambage fell down in the first half and did not play the rest of the game. Does anyone know what happened? Is she okay?

Might be an Achilles' tendon injury...being evaluated, but she was crying when she left the floor...

 

[hoophuskee]

Doggyd first off want to say I enjoy these discussions – no UCONN yet to talk about and these are basketball discussions. Hope you, icebear, Phil and of the others I have spoken with in the past and had disagreements such as Uconncat and anyone in the future don’t take my posts the wrong way. I’ll also add I had another screename a long time ago and you and I often agreed --and now I think we still often agree. And I want to reiterate here to icebear and Phil – please do NOT take what I say as any type of derogatory manner. If it does seem so let me know – not my intent.

DD- I can only post so much so when you say to me “you’re only looking at 8 minutes” it’ just an example that I can recall quickly in my head. Whatever is rattling around up there. For this post I’ll do a bit of a novel but in general I won’t/ can’t cite everything. Takes too long. Nor do I go write down plays in anticipation of what might be a subject on the boneyard so when I reference the game I can’t recall the specific Washington games/plays. Or the comments Geno made for example if his team had a weakness this past championship year it was rebounding among other things. It’s a summation of what I think – and I’m just giving brief examples. Too brief for you- okay. But they are just moments I can recall . I can’t jot done or remember everything. Anyhow- Phil differentiated himself from me when he said “he was at the game.” I differentiated from him saying I watched the 2nd half and listened to Peck who I agreed with and respect. I remember the play Phil remembers. I remember what Peck had to say (I wasn’t taking notes nor do I have a replay of the game. I saw how Canada attacked and it’s how I would envision a palyer like SD to be attacked and it’s how I feel she is attacked at Washington and the type of attack if a team – if they were good enough in college- which generally they weren’t – could expose. No player is perfect. And I also remember one play in the exhibition in which Chiney went by SD.IMO I wouldn’t remember it if I didn’t think there were other plays too. I can’t remember every play so I can only reference what I can reference- so when you say I’m only picking up 8 minutes her and a little with Washington it’s also what I’ve seen at UCONN and trying to project how she’ll do early on. Plus I make a projection she’ll be better that JL as time goes on. If I felt she had done real good things before or during those minutes I would have blown off her mistakes. But if you saw her play well with Washington – fine – I didn’t really see that. Her game has transitioned to WNBA as I thought. Struggle early but will become a fine player. Not a superstar.

And you’re right - – how can I make a judgment. Well the reason why I mentioned I saw SD only for a half (I didn’t mention I saw her a little in the USA Team exhibition), and at Washington is just for the reason you cite – then go ahead throw my opinion way. But imo that can be said for the many that now are projecting what Kia Nurse would be and many other projections posters make, wouldn’t it? IS there a timeline of too little to make an evaluation? I didn’t clock my view of SD as I watched her with Washington. Maybe it’s a little to some and others a lot because they rarely watch WNBA. I mean I’ve watched enough of the WNBA to see that JL had changed her game a bit in that she could face the basket. And more importantly as you cite some of us know more than the announcers – but I’ll add to that- sometimes we don’t but think we do. Anyhow, can’t most of us look back on the limited time we’ve seen a player in high school or before a player entered the WNBA -but we saw a ton at UCONN- and sometimes make a spot-on correct projection that others missed that may have seen her more? Here are a few of the projections I nailed over the years without much of a look:


I knew Dolson was a terrific recruit that was going to project very well. I read that she was the best center coming out of high school and I saw one brief video of her and I just knew it. I wouldn’t have bet top 5, I can remember I wasn’t that specific but I knew she was darn good. If you’ll recall on the old ESPN board you had Glen MaGrady talking about “going on the Magic bus” to watch her play metioning how good eh thought she was. I frequently thought Glen was wrong on many of his opinions but this one I agreed with him on.

Within the next several months you may recall that Brianna Banks had a terrific showing in the McD AA game. There were those such as Glen that thought after viewing that game that she should be among the top scorers on the team (the wow factor). There were quite a few that held that opinion. I disagreed with it for up to 3 reasons, one was she came up at UCONN known as a defender- we were/are a premiere team. Super teams like ours in your 1st or 2nd year you aren’t going to become a go-to scorer if your high school career you weren’t an elite offensive player. In a struggling era you might be. But we weren’t struggling. Secondly her outside shot didn’t seem that great/smooth and her slashing seemed a bit wild. Of course I can’t remember what exactly I said but I still picture that AA game and I value experience, always have, so without a year or 2 under a player’s belt, I’ll be a bit more skeptical unless you are KML type etc We all have certain things we value. Such as the poster I think you can recall - cth values “big guards.” There were those that thought Mel Thomas was a waste the 1st moment they saw her and continued with that philosophy. I didn’t. Not at all.

Kelly Faris. The moment I saw her at the McD game I knew she was a terrific catch. But I only had to watch her a little at the McD AA game to know that she wasn’t a pg. You may recall there were quite a few projecting her as a pg with one person in particular stating they saw her for nearly her entire high school career and he or she used the “I saw her a lot.” This person claimed without a doubt she is a pg. Well I saw her a little and I didn’t see a pg. I saw a wing that would be special in part because she could handle the ball very well. A wing with her handle is a strength.

Maya Moore – on the old espn board I can recall one poster which I regret I was rude too – that person is a very nice poster- we had different opinions of Maya’s position she should play. Once I saw that little stretch in that one tape that was being passed around - I knew she would be a terrific pf. The poster thought she was too small. That person’s opinion after watching her a lot in the summer was that she’d get abused on the boards. Just as kibitizer made note of a possibility of Team USA not necessarily having to have another truce center, I look at the pf as not necessarily have to be very tall. Whether it be Maya or anyone else in the future such as Collier. And I can say that about Collier with just the few minutes of watching her too.

Tiffany Hayes. Wasn’t it ridiculous she was picked in the 2nd round? We didn’t have to watch one second of the WNBA to know that she in no way should have been a 2nd round pick, right?

DD- I included these as a point that we don’t need to see a lot in some cases. I’ve been wrong a lot too- both on surprises to the good and bad. I don’t project every player. Many I have little to no idea. I just can’t believe that there aren’t some players you couldn’t predict after watching them for a short time. So when you say to me that I’ve only seen Dolson for so little – I say -----so what. Many of us do it, and I brought it up that I hadn’t seen her much thus I understand my opinion will be thrown away by many. So be it. I just feel that my opinion is correct and the above are examples of players as such I’ve been right about even though I’ve seen them so little before their jump to the next level.

Absolutely I could be wrong. It’s just my opinion. In this case I’d love to see her on the team. She can make it imo for the 3 reasons I cited in prior posts in my eyes. And maybe The Committee could wind up picking her for competently different reasons too. Heck maybe SD is dominating practices. None of us can really know that, right? So what’s the timeline of appropriate evaluation on here?

Two final points—if I see something in a game which I think is happening and an announcer is mentioning what I’m thinking, then I’ll bring it up especially if it is Carolyn Peck. And secondly, I think if SD makes the team she is the 12th player. You say I think she is a “weakness.” I can see how you think that I’m thinking that way -- but as I said – you could put the worst WNBA player on Team USA and we probably still blow everyone out. And I’ll add I think SD would probably start for every other team- -maybe one or two might not? I don’t know --but regarding SD as a “weakness” for a team that I think has nearly no chance to be beaten is a bit harsh. Whether SD or JL get on the team – we aren’t losing. For me - weakest link is more appropriate than weakness-- imo -- but whatever.

I enjoy this talk. Hope I haven’t offended. Usually when we go back and forth like this – inevitably insults fly. I hope this isn’t the case. I value your opinion (As I do for everyone on this thread ) – always have valued yours—I’m not brown-nosing -and it sounds corny but I mean it - from ESPN board to here. We can’t agree on everything. And what can I say – I enjoy these discussions. If everyone agreed on every opinion then wouldn’t it be extremely boring? Thanks!!

 

[hoophuskee]

I think that is probably the strongest argument in favor of Dolson over Lavender - the future and not the present. But I do think the international game with a few exceptions tends toward more mobile centers with good mid-range to 3 point range. That is slowly changing in the US as well - C. Paris type centers are more difficult to find in HS as everyone wants to shoot threes. CD and Geno have both talked about that change.

Edit: Look at the bigs in the incoming freshman for example: Turner, Wilson. Everyone wants to be the next Jackson, Parker, Stewart and not the next Paris/Fowles.

Here's the problem regarding SD for the future. For the next two Olympics you'll have Griner, Tina, EDD and BS as combo pf's and centers. Parker at 34 may still be in there too. For versailtiy you may even have Maya as a pf. There is a possibility for SD but there isn't much room. And you may end up with another young player coming up that you want to give her expereince becuase she will wind up being the next superstar by the time 2020 rolls around.

 

[doggydaddy]

When I saw how long the post was, I stopped reading after the first few sentences.

Wow. All right, I'll give it a go.

Ok....I just read your post and I'll just say that I now have a headache.

I'll just agree that we all should be able to debate stuff here without getting nasty.

But it would make it easier if you would just always agree with me. Think about it.

 

[Gate81]

With all due respect to Stef, who was a great college player and is still excellent in many ways, the bottom line is she isn't quick enough for this international game -- at least to be on the US team. BTW, notice that in today's game her minutes, fouls and points remain consistently disappointing...on the other hand, two players had more points than minutes played and were significant: Nneka Ogwumike and Jantel Lavender.

I don't think Stef's problem is BG, Tina Charles, EDD et.al. but just that she's not as fast or versatile. Nneka's growth the past two years (the difference between not making the 2012 team and being a front-runner now) is that she expanded her versatility, so watch to see how Chiney looks in 2016 too!

 

[hoophuskee]

The stats from the WNBA indicate that Lavender is a better offensive player and Dolson is a better defensive player, I didn't think her defense looked good against Canada, but maybe it's just a thing with adjusting to international basketball.

If you're picking purely on defense, Dolson is the pick. Overall, advanced metrics like Lavender a little better but some of the things Dolson does well do necessarily make the stat sheet.

Forced to choose, I'd probably take Dolson because in a couple of years I think she will be much better than Lavender. If it's close now, I'd give her the tiebreak.

I agree but what stats for defense are you looking at? The def rating stats? The defensive stats are highly suspect. Heck look at the NBA stats for as recent as 2013-2014.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_top_10.html


Bogut number 2? I don't know- he's good but imo not top 2 good. Paul George at 3 over LBJ? No LBJ in the top 10? Maybe but I don't think so on either. Danny Green at 5? No way. And Carlos Boozer at number 9? Not a chance never never never. He is not regarded as much of a defensive player.

Regarding the stats - who would we say is the better passer- Dolson or Lavender? I'd go with SD no problem. JL's stats show she has a slightly better assist to turnover ratio. IMO SD is the better passer despite what the stats say. Despite what the stats say Boozer is nowhere near among the top 10 defensive players in the NBA.