Duke and Tennessee

[HuskyNan]

Duke is 15-6 with games vs Notre Dame, Miami, and Florida State left to play

Tennessee is 12-7 with games vs Miss State (still not sold on them), Texas A&M, and South Carolina remaining

Tremendous talent on both teams; both with, let's say, questionable coaching. Would the Athletic Directors stand for this if it were the men's teams?

Years ago the Syracuse women tried to pull a coup, going into the AD's office and demanding a coaching change because the coach had been racially insensitive and demeaning and they were tired of losing. The AD basically told them to suck it up. And then, the newspapers got a hold of the story and the coach evenutally "retired". Where's the outrage in Knoxville and Durham? Are people "disappointed" the women's teams are losing rather than fighting mad? C'mon people, show your women's teams the same support.

 

[Nuyoika]

If it isn't Football, they likely don't care.

 

[CocoHusky]

Would the Athletic Directors stand for this if it were the men's teams?

Yes for Duke. Coach K is the defending NCAA Champion with a current record (15 & 6) not unlike women of Tenn. and Duke. He not going anywhere because he fully branded & integrated into the Business School at Duke.
Maybe for Tennessee. Call it a mass distraction but Tenn. is trying to become relevant again in SEC football and everything else will be a distraction. Don't imagine anything will be done at either school until the current contracts and extensions are up-which is a darn shame IMO. The best way to speak up for women is to demand excellence and not tolerate mediocrity in coaching & mediocrity might be significant oversell of Holly and JPM coaching ability. Niele Ivey should be coaching Lady Vols & Courtney Banghart should be coaching Duke TODAY, NOW, Last Season even!

 

[jdubct]

I don't think either coach would voluntarily resign. Would either school be willing to buy out the remainders of their coach's contract?

 

[CocoHusky]

I don't think either coach would voluntarily resign. Would either school be willing to buy out the remainders of their coach's contract?

I doubt it because it is not good business sense to buy out a Women's basketball coach's contract because WCBB is for the most part a money losing enterprise.

 

[cohenzone]

I've said for years that athletic departments accept losing or underachieving far longer in women's hoops than with men. Or if not underacheing totally, never being in a position to make some real noise at the end of the year. My two favorite examples, Andy Landers, now retired, and Harry Perreta, never would have lasted so long in a men's hoop program at those universities. Tte picture has changed a bit over the last few years, but not anywhere near what it is for men. Of course money (or lack of important revenue) has a lot to do with it.

 

[UcMiami]

I think there is some 'fighting mad' in TN - there have been a couple of stories in the local papers, and there is a rabid fan base that is shouting. But it is also a money thing for ADs, and the big money continues to roll in from boosters with I suspect an imperceptible hiccup from LadyVol fans that could as easily be attributed to the other turmoil rather than the WCBB team. They are still drawing big home crowds which if slightly smaller than usual could be attributed to seasonal variation.
Duke ... this is not that different from the last few years - maybe it cannot be attributed to injury like previous years, but they have been 'just good enough' for a while, and they don't have the 'storied history' though they did have a very nice run of really strong teams with GG.

 

[Bonpland]

We should try to remember that we had a 25-8 season two years after Taurasi left. Reorganizations happen and teams have lulls. With Tennessee and Duke it has now progressed well passed being considered a lull. The Lady Vols showed enough last night to encourage their fans that things might improve and they surely remember that they won a NC with ten losses (giving us in the Tournament what I consider to be our most painful loss).

Of course that team and the ones that won back to back with Parker were coached by a long term, extremely successful. coach. Neither Tennessee nor Duke have that luxury but to be fair no one picked Duke this year to make the final four.

Watching last night's game I was struck with just how badly coached both teams seemed to be. I don't say that in reference to Geno, or Pat but rather in comparison to many of the teams we face. We beat Maryland, DePaul, and ND but it wasn't because their players didn't know what to do the ball, or failed to run a play when they needed it.

As to Nan's question, I think that for most AD's women's sports are just an activity required by legislation that was passed forty years ago. That's sad, but true. In most places men's sports are expected to do everything they can to win, while women's sports have merely to exist.

 

[Kibitzer]

OK, you're Dave Hart. You are paying Holly $665,000 and she is locked in for several years. There are no issues like moral turpitude or racism on the horizon. She has been winning about 80% of her games. To fire her (not for cause) would cost $2+million buyout. Then the hassle and cost of finding and hiring a replacement (and staff). What will you do and how will you explain your actions to the Board of Trustees, not to mention media?

 

[HoopsFan21]

I think Maya's senior year tourney loss was the most painful.

 

[TRest]

OK, you're Dave Hart. You are paying Holly $665,000 and she is locked in for several years. There are no issues like moral turpitude or racism on the horizon. She has been winning about 80% of her games. To fire her (not for cause) would cost $2+million buyout. Then the hassle and cost of finding and hiring a replacement (and staff). What will you do and how will you explain your actions to the Board of Trustees, not to mention media?

You can't fire someone because they aren't getting Pat's results. Look at how long Rutgers has tolerated CVS stumbling toward oblivion. Most AD's don't want to take on the added cost of a contract buyout for a sport that loses money at all but a couple of schools.

 

[msf22b]

OK, you're Dave Hart. You are paying Holly $665,000 and she is locked in for several years. There are no issues like moral turpitude or racism on the horizon. She has been winning about 80% of her games. To fire her (not for cause) would cost $2+million buyout. Then the hassle and cost of finding and hiring a replacement (and staff). What will you do and how will you explain your actions to the Board of Trustees, not to mention media?

I certainly agree about the money Kib.

But there is a hue and a cry going on.
In the fan base, in the media, less quantifiable but certainly among a portion of the major donors and Pat supporters.
The AD and college Prez cannot help but notice that a flagship programs is steering into the rocks.;they read about it and cannot put on ignore, the daily bombast that is becoming a (smalltime) national obsession.

There are also the storied alumni of the program who have been remarkably silent in public. Has anyone heard a peep from Parker? from Kara Lawson?
God knows what they are saying behind the scenes, possibly as advisors.

No, the pressure is building for change...Hart may not be obsessed with the program but he will not want to be held responsible for its downfall.

if he doesn't watch out that will be next.

 

[UcMiami]

You can't fire someone because they aren't getting Pat's results. Look at how long Rutgers has tolerated CVS stumbling toward oblivion. Most AD's don't want to take on the added cost of a contract buyout for a sport that loses money at all but a couple of schools.

But, at least at Rutgers, CViv's team was 'the shining light' in a sea of really bad stuff with the rest of the sports teams (and bad results.) And Rutgers WCBB wasn't an iconic program, they had good years, but Cviv took them farther than they had ever been. Holly - yeah the TN Men's teams have been a disaster over the last 5 years, but I wouldn't say the women's side has been a feel good story what with lawsuits and upheaval.

On the plus side, they have won part of the SEC title every year but last, and they have made it to the second weekend of the tournament - so the results really are relatively good. And if not for the continued rise of SC, something she really has no control over, they would (until this year) have continued their dominance of the SEC.

 

[UcMiami]

OK, you're Dave Hart. You are paying Holly $665,000 and she is locked in for several years. There are no issues like moral turpitude or racism on the horizon. She has been winning about 80% of her games. To fire her (not for cause) would cost $2+million buyout. Then the hassle and cost of finding and hiring a replacement (and staff). What will you do and how will you explain your actions to the Board of Trustees, not to mention media?

He has an even tougher sell, because he just gave her her third raise and extension - something he has down for basically identical results I think each of the last three off-seasons.

 

[HuskyNan]

We should try to remember that we had a 25-8 season two years after Taurasi left. Reorganizations happen and teams have lulls. With Tennessee and Duke it has now progressed well passed being considered a lull. The Lady Vols showed enough last night to encourage their fans that things might improve and they surely remember that they won a NC with ten losses (giving us in the Tournament what I consider to be our most painful loss).

Yes, the Huskies lost 8 games that year but only one to an unranked team. The team just had too many flaws to cover up that year but only once did the team look disinterested in playing, and that was the Michigan State game. That game was an embarrassment from beginning to end. Tennessee has had several of those games this season and with FAR more talent than that 2004-2005 UConn team.

UConn lost to these teams in 2004-2005:
#9 North Carolina, 71-65 (on the road)
Unranked Arizona State 61-50 (on the road)
#10 Michigan State, 67-51 (at home, and this was the ugliest loss I've ever seen by UConn)
#10 Tennessee, 68-67 (at home)
#7 Notre Dame, 65-59 (at home)
#11 Rutgers, 76-62 (on the road)
#20 BC, 51-48 (on the road; this was also a painful loss but not as ugly as the MSU game)
#1 Stanford, 76-59 (NCAA tournament regionals final)

However, UConn beat:
Notre Dame, twice, once in South Bend, once in the Big East tourney semifinals
#15 Texas (at home)
Rutgers, twice, once at home and in the finals of the BE tourney
BC (at home)

And while Tennessee fans like to point to that 10-loss season in which their team won the championship, once again, point guard Kelly Jolly missed many of those games while she sat out with an injury. The LVs were a different team with her in the lineup, which she was for the tournament.

 

[CocoHusky]

Kellie Jolly (Harper), actually surprised that her name has not come up more as HC candidate within the Lady Vols family. I'm rather fond of her because she made my daughter a solid offer to play at Western Carolina, she was rather pedestrian as HC of NC State and Missouri State but she is of the LV family. Any of Pat's other recent players have HC experience?

 

[EricLA]

I was going to quote Nan's post but it was long and I thought instead I'd just reply...

True story - I live in Southern Cal and attended the ASU game that they lost. Actually flew out and attended the game. Was so excited to see them play in person. BOOM... I also have a friend who works at Stanford so I thought I'd go up and visit him at the time of the UCONN/Stanford game last year. BOOM.

Needless to say I won't be "traveling" any longer for UCONN regular season games. Don't want to bring the bad mojo! Tourney games are a different story, though!

Also on Mississippi State - I'm not sold on them either (nor on Missouri or aTm). I think Tennessee could beat all those teams. Heck - even SC doesn't appear to be light years ahead of the other top teams in the SEC. I don't think there is very much that separates the top 8 teams in the SEC...

 

[HuskyNan]

Kellie Jolly (Harper), actually surprised that her name has not come up more as HC candidate within the Lady Vols family. I'm rather fond of her because she made my daughter a solid offer to play at Western Carolina, she was rather pedestrian as HC of NC State and Missouri State but she is of the LV family. Any of Pat's other recent players have HC experience?

Tenn should hire Carolyn Peck for head coach. She played in the SEC (Vandy), has been an assistant at Tenn, and won a championship at Purdue (with Lin Dunn's players, but still...). Added bonus - it gets her off TV.

 

[Nuyoika]

Tenn should hire Carolyn Peck for head coach. She played in the SEC (Vandy), has been an assistant at Tenn, and won a championship at Purdue (with Lin Dunn's players, but still...). Added bonus - it gets her off TV.

Hallelujah! Can I get an amen?

 

[hjoerring]

I don't think either coach would voluntarily resign. Would either school be willing to buy out the remainders of their coach's contract?

Am I to understand that you

Yes for Duke. Coach K is the defending NCAA Champion with a current record (15 & 6) not unlike women of Tenn. and Duke. He not going anywhere because he fully branded & integrated into the Business School at Duke.
Maybe for Tennessee. Call it a mass distraction but Tenn. is trying to become relevant again in SEC football and everything else will be a distraction. Don't imagine anything will be done at either school until the current contracts and extensions are up-which is a darn shame IMO. The best way to speak up for women is to demand excellence and not tolerate mediocrity in coaching & mediocrity might be significant oversell of Holly and JPM coaching ability. Niele Ivey should be coaching Lady Vols & Courtney Banghart should be coaching Duke TODAY, NOW, Last Season even!

Are you calling for the Duke's mbb coach to retire or fired? Really?

 

[Wbbfan1]

Tenn might consider letting Holly go as some in the fan base are upset and IMHO a more important factor is their recruiting. Unless there are strong indications that the Lady Vols will have a Strong 2017 Recruiting Class, I would let Holly go.

 

[CocoHusky]

Are you calling for the Duke's mbb coach to retire or fired? Really?

Neither. Really not. Was responding to a question which was" Would the Athletic Directors stand for this (poor coaching/record) if it were the men's teams? "

 

[hjoerring]

Duke is 15-6 with games vs Notre Dame, Miami, and Florida State left to play

Tennessee is 12-7 with games vs Miss State (still not sold on them), Texas A&M, and South Carolina remaining

Tremendous talent on both teams; both with, let's say, questionable coaching. Would the Athletic Directors stand for this if it were the men's teams?

Years ago the Syracuse women tried to pull a coup, going into the AD's office and demanding a coaching change because the coach had been racially insensitive and demeaning and they were tired of losing. The AD basically told them to suck it up until the newspapers got ahold of the story and the coach evenutally "retired". Where's the outrage in Knoxville and Durham? Are people "disappointed" the women's teams are losing rather than fighting mad? C'mon people, show your women's teams the same support.

I am thinking that the point you are making cannot be the obvious one- firing a 15-6 and 12-7 coach in women's basketball. If geno goes 15-6 next year should he be fired? The Syracuse situation was radically different and should not pay service for the argument you would like to make. Push to the logical conclusion, firing would become the new norm. No way the top schools would play each other and risk losing. Mark my words- our day will come!

 

[UcMiami]

Tenn should hire Carolyn Peck for head coach. She played in the SEC (Vandy), has been an assistant at Tenn, and won a championship at Purdue (with Lin Dunn's players, but still...). Added bonus - it gets her off TV.

She is a common choice of the fire Holly now and bring in someone to save the season!
On the SEC - the lack of quality of road team play is very real, so I give TN an advantage over most SEC teams that come to their court, and flip it for the away games. It is why the middle of the pack so often beats the ranked teams on their home floors and you get so many split series.

 

[CocoHusky]

I am thinking that the point you are making cannot be the obvious one- firing a 15-6 and 12-7 coach in women's basketball. If geno goes 15-6 next year should he be fired?

You are not firing just based on this year's record. You would be firing based on a series of failed years relative to expectation and the talent of the roster. Tenn was ranked as high as #3 this year and has multiple losses to unranked teams. Despite multiple years with rosters loaded with multiple MacDonald's All-American both Duke & Tenn. have not reached even a FF since 2008.
If Geno happens to go 15-6 next year he should not be fired because that would be based on 1 year & would discount recent years where the team has actually over achieved relative to expectations like 2013.