Don't mean to start a men vs women thing, but...

[vtcwbuff]

There is a huge difference between social reform and market reform. Perhaps the government should impose Title IX type restrictions on the media. Maybe require equal media coverage for men's and women's sports? Force the NBA to cough up the money to make WNBA pay scales equal to that of NBA players?

My old man outdated thinking still believes that the onus is on women. If women's sports are struggling than shame on women for not supporting it. Businesses flourish when there is demand for their product.

If somebody was offended by my cosmetic spending - prove me wrong. Those that think women dress for men are soooo wrong. That may be true for the woman looking for a mate, but most women dress for other women because in truth most men don't care.

A true last Friday evening conversation at my house. We were about to leave for dinner.

Wife - do these shoes look OK?
Me - You're asking me?
She - You see anyone else here?
Me - Nobody will be looking at your shoes.
She - Women will.

We met another couple at the restaurant. The first words out of the other woman's mouth were "Ooooh, I love your shoes."

 

[ursusminor]

My old man outdated thinking still believes that the onus is on women. If women's sports are struggling than shame on women for not supporting it. Businesses flourish when there is demand for their product.

We have already discussed some reasons why women may not be interested in sports, and why we are hopeful that the situation will change in the future. Women have long been taught that they are not supposed to be interested in sports, and that will take time to change.

If somebody was offended by my cosmetic spending - prove me wrong. Those that think women dress for men are soooo wrong. That may be true for the woman looking for a mate, but most women dress for other women because in truth most men don't care.

The point is not that men do or don't care. The point is that women are judged - yes, by other women - from the perspective of a male gaze. That is to say, if I think another woman looks good, that means I think that a man would find her attractive. I may think a woman's comfy clothes look sloppy even if it's exactly the same thing I chose to wear that day, for the same reason (comfort), because it's not up to the standard of looking attractive to men. It's messed up because half the time we don't even realize why we're thinking that way. It's not about who is doing the judging; it's about how the standard is set.

 

[alexrgct]

More of the same.

A recent study by Univ of Del -- article linked at womenshoopsblog.wordpress.com -- found differences in how sportscasters talked about athletes depending on race, gender and nationality.

The gender-based study published in the Journal of Broadcasting and Electronic Media found:

• When female athletes succeed, commentators tend to focus on luck and less on physical ability.
• When female athletes fail, physical ability and commitment are noted.
• When male athletes succeed, commentators applaud their skill and commitment to the sport.
• When male athletes fail, it is not necessarily about their failure, but about how their competitors succeeded.
• In 2010, 75 percent of the most-mentioned athletes were male.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120618161903.htm

While interesting, I don't know a) how signigicant the study actually is, or b) the tangible impact.

"Tend" is a term that is based on statistically significant differences in studies like this. The link between statistically significant difference and real-world difference can be tenuous. From there lies the question of to what extent any of these differences account for the variability in how women playing sports or "women's sports" are perceived.

The last bullet point is the most striking and easily measurable/connectable of them all...but honestly, I was surprised to read it was only 75-25 in favor of male athletes. Twenty-five years ago, it would have been more like 90-10, if that. So while the intent of the statistic is leave the reader a bit dismayed, I'm actually encouraged.

 

[alexrgct]

We have already discussed some reasons why women may not be interested in sports, and why we are hopeful that the situation will change in the future. Women have long been taught that they are not supposed to be interested in sports, and that will take time to change.

I don't entirely agree with that. I think the distinction is more HOW women consume sports. Many, many women consume sports; they just do so less maniacally, with fewer dollars, and, generally with a focus on men's sports (in large part very few places have a women's sport followed to the extent to create a community around them).

 

[ursusminor]

I don't entirely agree with that. I think the distinction is more HOW women consume sports. Many, many women consume sports; they just do so less maniacally, with fewer dollars, and, generally with a focus on men's sports (in large part very few places have a women's sport followed to the extent to create a community around them).

I was also speaking of women playing sports, and as I discussed a page or two ago, a lot of women, particularly those who are now over 40, would have been discouraged from playing sports when they were kids. That mindset has not entirely gone away, although it has been greatly reduced. I think this has a lot to do with the lack of fan interest.

 

[arty155]

And the average age 60+. Hence many of the outmoded attitudes.

Says you, Whippersnapper!!

 

[vtcwbuff]

We have already discussed some reasons why women may not be interested in sports, and why we are hopeful that the situation will change in the future. Women have long been taught that they are not supposed to be interested in sports, and that will take time to change.


The point is not that men do or don't care. The point is that women are judged - yes, by other women - from the perspective of a male gaze. That is to say, if I think another woman looks good, that means I think that a man would find her attractive. I may think a woman's comfy clothes look sloppy even if it's exactly the same thing I chose to wear that day, for the same reason (comfort), because it's not up to the standard of looking attractive to men. It's messed up because half the time we don't even realize why we're thinking that way. It's not about who is doing the judging; it's about how the standard is set.

Your points are your opinion from your perspective. Mine is different and probably a lot simpler and closer to reality. Men and women are different. We have different interests, not because we are taught different interests by a male dominated society, although that happens, but primarily because we are wired different. Most of the teaching that made women's interests what they are was done by evolution.


However, all that bears no relevance. Stand on a street corner in Hartford with a pocketful of 50 dollar bills (do it in broad daylight). Offer a bill to each woman that passes with just one condition. Spend it on tickets at Gample or spend it in Bucklands Mall. How many additional tickets do you think will be sold?

 

[pinotbear]

Your points are your opinion from your perspective. Mine is different and probably a lot simpler and closer to reality. Men and women are different. We have different interests, not because we are taught different interests by a male dominated society, although that happens, but primarily because we are wired different. Most of the teaching that made women's interests what they are was done by evolution.


However, all that bears no relevance. Stand on a street corner in Hartford with a pocketful of 50 dollar bills (do it in broad daylight). Offer a bill to each woman that passes with just one condition. Spend it on tickets at Gample or spend it in Bucklands Mall. How many additional tickets do you think will be sold?

Stand on that same corner and make the same offer to each man that passes. How many additional tickets do you think will be sold?
I will say, you'll probably get more dirty looks from the women, and perhaps an inquiry from a passsing gendarme as to your purpose.

"Mine is different"..no problem so far.."and probably a lot ..closer to reality". Assumption there, VTC.

 

[vtcwbuff]

"Stand on that same corner and make the same offer to each man that passes. How many additional tickets do you think will be sold?"

My guess is that more men than women would take the ticket option. Just as there are more men than women on the BY and more men than women at the games. Besides, I don't know any guy that enjoys shopping at a mall. It might be different if Home Depot were offered as an option.

 

[Waquoit]

Women have long been taught that they are not supposed to be interested in sports, and that will take time to change.

I'll call BS on that.

 

[OneTrickPony]

FWIW...most of the attendance at Houston Comet games during their 4-year run of WNBA Championships and most of the attendance at the Atlanta Dream games I've attended...including the WNBA Final last year...were women! I'll be surprised if this bucks the trend anywhere but UCONN or TENN...

 

[alexrgct]

I was also speaking of women playing sports, and as I discussed a page or two ago, a lot of women, particularly those who are now over 40, would have been discouraged from playing sports when they were kids. That mindset has not entirely gone away, although it has been greatly reduced. I think this has a lot to do with the lack of fan interest.

That's an interesting question- what is the correllation between playing and following/consuming? Or perhaps, more specifically, what is the correllation between wishing at some point you could play and following/consuming? Your average guy at a bar or in the stands at a football game never played a down of competitive football in his life. Of course, he may have grown up with fantasies of being able to play in a way a woman would likely not have.

 

[alexrgct]

FWIW...most of the attendance at Houston Comet games during their 4-year run of WNBA Championships and most of the attendance at the Atlanta Dream games I've attended...including the WNBA Final last year...were women! I'll be surprised if this bucks the trend anywhere but UCONN or TENN...

This wouldn't surprise me, but if you went to a Falcons or Texans game, you'd see way more women than you did at the basketball games. And they'd be more likely to have purchased associated merchandise.

 

[OneTrickPony]

This wouldn't surprise me, but if you went to a Falcons or Texans game, you'd see way more women than you did at the basketball games. And they'd be more likely to have purchased associated merchandise.

No doubt

 

[UConnChapette]

I was also speaking of women playing sports, and as I discussed a page or two ago, a lot of women, particularly those who are now over 40, would have been discouraged from playing sports when they were kids. That mindset has not entirely gone away, although it has been greatly reduced. I think this has a lot to do with the lack of fan interest.

I am female, over 40 (heck, over 50). I spent the first 12 years of my life in Southern California. I played softball for many years. I LOVED running more than just about anything, and beat the boys regularly throughout elementary school, and not by a nose either. I beat them badly. I was fast, so much so that my 7th grade gym teacher was suggesting I get a track coach and started looking into setting me up with one. Then - my father ruined my life and destroyed my dreams by getting transferred to the middle of nowheresville. Nebraska for cripes sake! Track coaches don't live in Nebraska! My most fervent dream was to run the 100 and 200 meters in the Olympics - but it was not to be. Even if I HAD a track coach (and assuming I could have competed against the likes of Evelyn Ashford and Valerie Brisco-Hooks), the 1980 Olympics were boycotted.

My parents encouraged my participation in sports.. And I love to watch most sports today. I have no interest in American Idol or So You Think You Can Dance. My sister had no interest in sports (she liked music and ballet) To this day, she doesn't watch sports - except the Super Bowl. But she loves AI and SYTYCD. Our interests from childhood followed us into adulthood. So, there may be something to your assertion.

3 days to the Olympics! Can't wait!!!

 

[HuskyJohn]

I am female, over 40 (heck, over 50). I spent the first 12 years of my life in Southern California. I played softball for many years. I LOVED running more than just about anything, and beat the boys regularly throughout elementary school, and not by a nose either. I beat them badly. I was fast, so much so that my 7th grade gym teacher was suggesting I get a track coach and started looking into setting me up with one. Then - my father ruined my life and destroyed my dreams by getting transferred to the middle of nowheresville. Nebraska for cripes sake! Track coaches don't live in Nebraska! My most fervent dream was to run the 100 and 200 meters in the Olympics - but it was not to be. Even if I HAD a track coach (and assuming I could have competed against the likes of Evelyn Ashford and Valerie Brisco-Hooks), the 1980 Olympics were boycotted.

My parents encouraged my participation in sports.. And I love to watch most sports today. I have no interest in American Idol or So You Think You Can Dance. My sister had no interest in sports (she liked music and ballet) To this day, she doesn't watch sports - except the Super Bowl. But she loves AI and SYTYCD. Our interests from childhood followed us into adulthood. So, there may be something to your assertion.

3 days to the Olympics! Can't wait!!!
]

A very interesting story. Although these topics are and will continue to be controversial, everything I’ve read leads me to believe that what we become is a complicated nature/nurture interaction. In most all areas we have inherent predispositions about health, abilities of various kinds, etc. which can be altered significantly by our life experiences. You clearly had a special athletic talent which instilled dreams at an early age. I have to wonder if your interest in sports would be as strong if you lacked athletic ability and received no recognition and encouragement.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I have to wonder if your interest in sports would be as strong if you lacked athletic ability and received no recognition and encouragement.

 

[arty155]

I have to wonder if your interest in sports would be as strong if you lacked athletic ability and received no recognition and encouragement.

- You can say that again!
- Seriously, I enjoyed Chapette’s perspective which, as always, seems germane. I too found HuskyJohn’s thoughts (complicated interaction) particularly compelling [Thanks to you both!] .
- Like others, I am not sure yet lack of buying tickets reflects a woman’s lack of participation in sports...
- Personally, I like to think we spent a lot of time introducing our daughters to playing sports, not watching them.
- For whatever the reason, now in their mid-twenties, they do.
- They certainly pay entry fees for road races and equestrian events, and pay plenty for all the horse publications, tack, Runners World, gym membership, etc… but generally just don’t watch sports (aside from infrequent MLB-game dates, or TV figure skating) unless they are there actively supporting another buddy in an event.
-On the other hand they do watch American Idol,… so heck, I dunno, Chapette. I suppose it could stem from being piano players/music lovers, but I’ve been writing that off as just good old mindless entertainment.
-I certainly would not want any of that to change (OK, maybe the AI part), and so far, doubt I could have done much to make them WCBB fans/ticket buyers today, unless as kids, they had picked BBall as one of their favorite sports, instead of picking the others.

 

[JSB60]

Reading through this thread I am struck by how much individual variation trumps any gender stereotype. But then any group with about half the human race as members is likely to have a certain amount of variation.

 

[HuskyNan]

Your points are your opinion from your perspective. Mine is different and probably a lot simpler and closer to reality.

And with this rather breath-taking conclusion, I hereby declare this thread officially dead, although that's not necessarily the first adjective that came to mind.