Do we need OFFENSE from the post to win it all? | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Do we need OFFENSE from the post to win it all?

I don't believe Golden State's style was another Villanova just as I don't believe UCONN is another Nova. Both had/have limited posts too. Well as I have said I love Geno's style. As a former guard in measly high school I want to see running. I want to see shots jacked up. And I want to see great players shoot the basketball and make tremendous passes. I don't find this last game monotonous, I call it heaven. :)

And Geno's style always seems to be attracting the next Sarah. The next Paige etc. This is much more exciting to me than worrying about which of our centers might get "9 points and 6 rebounds." The shot making was a thing of beauty.
My point is simply this: the best basketball has both. If girls keep growing then we'll end up with truly positionless basketball. 6'5" point guard? Maybe not. Although I have found I make myself the biggest fool when I say NEVER.
 
I don't believe Golden State's style was another Villanova just as I don't believe UCONN is another Nova. Both had/have limited posts too. Well as I have said I love Geno's style. As a former guard in measly high school I want to see running. I want to see shots jacked up. And I want to see great players shoot the basketball and make tremendous passes. I don't find this last game monotonous, I call it heaven. :)

And Geno's style always seems to be attracting the next Sarah. The next Paige etc. This is much more exciting to me than worrying about which of our centers might get "9 points and 6 rebounds." The shot making was a thing of beauty.
Of course it was a thing of beauty, but also rare enough to be a record and against an unrated team. Have a night when all the 3 ballers have pnuemonia and you might want a few more plays in the arsenal. This does happen you know. I think the men had a 3-18 night in the Elite 8; something like that.
 
When UConn plays against teams with a big who is an important part of their success, the chance of that big getting into foul trouble increases if UConn has a scoring center- it forces that big to play defense. For that reason, having centers who score is a good thing and may be needed against a team like, for example, UCLA.
 
Some comments on new posts (fun thread).:)

We don't want our centers to shoot as they are our worst option.

Well, they are missing half their shots!:eek:...but they are making half too.

Jana fg% is 50%, and Ice 49%. Not such a bad option, especially if I compare with some stars like JuJu at 45% and our friend Hidalgo at 48%. They both seem to be pretty good options for their teams.:confused:

We don't get production from our center, or our point guard.

Center: 11.5 ppg 9.5 rpg

Point: 10.9 ppg 7.0 apg

That's if we look at the platoons we are using, Ice/Jana & Chen/KK.

If these stats were coming from one person, rather than utilizing our depth, there would be less concern.

This should all keep improving, as we move through the Big East schedule. I think we CAN use BE games to work on developing our centers. Paige, Azzi, Chen and Sarah(amazingly) are already quite developed as players, but Jana, Ice and KK(+others) are still developing every game. The investment in improving our center (and point) play in relatively easier games will have a big return vs SC and in March.
Nice to see that someone understands this. If 8-9 kids are getting decent PT, there are not going to be enough possessions/shots for everyone to get 8-10 shots. With Auriemma using a lot of 4 guard/wing and 1 post lineups and as in the ISU game 3 players (Bueckers, Strong, and Shade) take 70% of the shots, neither Brady or El Alfy is going to get 30 MPG or enough shots to average 15-18 PPG. The 70% shot distribution makes sense because he runs the offense to maximize the number of shots for his 2-3 best scorers. If Bueckers and/or Strong is having an off night they're still not coming out of the game and they don't have 1-2 other kids that are going to replace that production because they're just not as talented. And because of her inconsistent availability he can't bank on Fudd every game to bail them out. People worry too much about individual stats. If the team is generating around 80+ PPG and playing good defense, the stats don't matter. They'll win almost all their games with that.
 
lso,
Of course it was a thing of beauty, but also rare enough to be a record and against an unrated team. Have a night when all the 3 ballers have pnuemonia and you might want a few more plays in the arsenal. This does happen you know. I think the men had a 3-18 night in the Elite 8; something like that.
I agree with you. It was a thing of beauty. And please not a rank on you. But when you mentioned Nova and UCONN in similarity I just believe UCONN is galaxy far far away from Nova. And you say "what if they catch pneumonia." And if that's how you like to enjoy a game is looking at these type of things in this manner - then great. For me I'm not that way.

I prefer to watch my team put their foot on a team's throat and don't let up (be classy but destructive.). As a result if I see that a team can't stop us then I want to do and run to keep it up until the flag is raised. But once the flag is raised there are other jerseys’ on the court besides Jana. They came to UCONN to play too. And if they fit into UCONN's style of play - then why is it that they can't improve to be better contributor than Jana? It's not only Jana is the only one that can improve is it? One of the comments has been what if 3big starts go 3-18 again? Well first off there have been games that Michale Jordan and Diana Taurasi had bad games too. But secondly, there is always talk about a bench so this last game Celi drilled another 3. She's shotting excellent from 3. SO now that UOCNN has given her the green light as well as Allie - if they show consistency then in that game that UCONN is struggling wouldn't it be fantastic that they could step in drill 3's? Or are they going to have caught pneumonia too?

And in regard to having only 3 players-- well what about Iowa? If Iowa got as far as they did with just Clark, and their limited bench, and this UCONN team is more talented than that Iowa team, then why should UCONN go away from their strength if Iowa didn’t have to and still beat them once and gave them a pretty tough time the 2nd time?

And in regard to their shooting, I believe if this team did it once then they have the ability to do it again even if it isn't "20."
 
And in regard to having only 3 players-- well what about Iowa? If Iowa got as far as they did with just Clark, and their limited bench,
I’m not sure I follow this part of your post. But you may have a good point t here. The way I see it, it took Lisa Bluder a couple of years to build the roster she had into something really special. It wasn’t only Clark. And when it was just Clark, they didn’t get very far. Czinano, Martin and Warnock were important contributors and very good players. Once they’d become a well-oiled machine, they made two serious runs. I give all the credit to Bluder for taking a team with one superstar and several supremely well-coached supporting players as far as she did.
 
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lso,

I agree with you. It was a thing of beauty. And please not a rank on you. But when you mentioned Nova and UCONN in similarity I just believe UCONN is galaxy far far away from Nova. And you say "what if they catch pneumonia." And if that's how you like to enjoy a game is looking at these type of things in this manner - then great. For me I'm not that way.

I prefer to watch my team put their foot on a team's throat and don't let up (be classy but destructive.). As a result if I see that a team can't stop us then I want to do and run to keep it up until the flag is raised. But once the flag is raised there are other jerseys’ on the court besides Jana. They came to UCONN to play too. And if they fit into UCONN's style of play - then why is it that they can't improve to be better contributor than Jana? It's not only Jana is the only one that can improve is it? One of the comments has been what if 3big starts go 3-18 again? Well first off there have been games that Michale Jordan and Diana Taurasi had bad games too. But secondly, there is always talk about a bench so this last game Celi drilled another 3. She's shotting excellent from 3. SO now that UOCNN has given her the green light as well as Allie - if they show consistency then in that game that UCONN is struggling wouldn't it be fantastic that they could step in drill 3's? Or are they going to have caught pneumonia too?

And in regard to having only 3 players-- well what about Iowa? If Iowa got as far as they did with just Clark, and their limited bench, and this UCONN team is more talented than that Iowa team, then why should UCONN go away from their strength if Iowa didn’t have to and still beat them once and gave them a pretty tough time the 2nd time?

And in regard to their shooting, I believe if this team did it once then they have the ability to do it again even if it isn't "20."
We're much the same. But I am a belt and suspenders guy, meaning in basketball I want versatility, including having both a high and low game. I accepted Geno's optimism on Jana because it was exceptional. She certainly will improve. And yes, you are right to expect the outside game to be strong and if Azzi gets going that is a lot of long guns firing. But I want a big who is more than a rim protector. And Nova, do you remember the team I call the Blonde Bombers? 3s, 3s, 3s 'til daddy takes the T-bird away.
 
Of course it was a thing of beauty, but also rare enough to be a record and against an unrated team. Have a night when all the 3 ballers have pnuemonia and you might want a few more plays in the arsenal. This does happen you know. I think the men had a 3-18 night in the Elite 8; something like that.
Don't be surprised to see Iowa St rise like a phoenix back into the rankings. In theory they will still be a contender in the Big12.

They have 4 quality players in Ryan, Harris, Jones and Crooks. Basically this same team lost in overtime to Stanford w Brink and Kiki last year at ncaa. (That's also how Crooks became a name, and they were invited to Mohegan Sun, and they were #8 in pre season.)

I think they will find their mojo again in league play.

Good for our SOS if they do.
 
I’m not sure I follow this part of your post. But you may have a good point t here. The way I see it, it took Lisa Bluder a couple of years to build the roster she had into something really special. It wasn’t only Clark. And when it was just Clark, they didn’t get very far. Czinano, Martin and Warnock were important contributors and very good players. Once they’d become a well-oiled machine, they made two serious runs. I give all the credit to Bluder for taking a team with one superstar and several supremely well-coached supporting players as far as she did.
But we are talking about competing vs teams like SoCar, right? The big bruisng frontlines? And that you can't have so few scorers? Granted Scizano scored 18 but in that game it was just her and Clark (scoring 59 of the team's 77 points), and they beat not just a tall frontline but a mammoth one. And she had 3 rebounds. Three. So, would you agree that Sarah could equal the overall performance to some degree? And I believe Paige and Azzi in combo could certainly equal Clark too.

And my argument with Rocky also continued with his or her comment that you can't survive with just 3 players. The way I see it that in part Rocky was talking about this past game when he or she made reference to only having 3 players?. So, do you think no one else contributed this past game but the 3? So, I was taking Rocky's post in context.If someone is going to say UCONN's other players didn't contrubute other than the 3 and that you need more, then the same can be said of Iowa's vs big-bad SoCar. But we know that wasn't the case in that game.

So, in that game Warnock, Martin, and O'Grady were 7,5, and 4 points respectively shooting 4-10 (2-6 from 3). UCONN's other starters and bench could defintely do better than that. While they scored the same amount of points, UCONN doesn't have Azzi or Griffin either. SO, it should be a game we are thriled about, right? Rocky and some other posters don't seem to be thrilled. If Rocky is and others that have agreed with Rocky are, it sure doesn't sound like that to me.
 
We're much the same. But I am a belt and suspenders guy, meaning in basketball I want versatility, including having both a high and low game. I accepted Geno's optimism on Jana because it was exceptional. She certainly will improve. And yes, you are right to expect the outside game to be strong and if Azzi gets going that is a lot of long guns firing. But I want a big who is more than a rim protector. And Nova, do you remember the team I call the Blonde Bombers? 3s, 3s, 3s 'til daddy takes the T-bird away.
Excellent post. Thank you for civil back and forth.

For me things that stick in my head for example one instance was years ago when the Giants were great and had Lawrence Taylor. They had a playoff game vs the Rams led by Anthony Dickerson. Late in the game the Giants were winning but the Rams were doing what they tried all game and it was run Dickerson. They started marching down the field. He was getting 3/4/6 yards per carry. Then they are near the goal line very late in the game and on a big play the Rams coach, Robinson, decides to call a running play up the gut hoping to trick the Giants with their fullback. Needless to say the Giants stuffed the run and ended up winning the game.

That was a HOF running back in a groove, and the coaching staff decides to take the ball out of his hands? That was nuts. Thus (other instances too) I have grown up believing stars win. And you play them and run them and play them until the other team screams UNCLE. I do understand exceptions however.
 
And I believe Paige and Azzi in combo could certainly equal Clark too.
I’m often confused by your posts, though it’s probably my fault. It seems like you shift the topic in midstream, or maybe I just can’t keep up.

As for this remark, I’m particularly puzzled. In head to head competition, Paige alone has been the equal of Caitlin, splitting the series, and Azzi by herself proved that she’s at least Caitlin’s equal in their only game together. I’d express a caveat with regard to the last final four game, in which Caitlin, surrounded by a veteran squad put up better numbers.

The notion that a lineup with both Paige and Azzi would merely equal Caitlin seems odd to me.
 
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Excellent post. Thank you for civil back and forth.

For me things that stick in my head for example one instance was years ago when the Giants were great and had Lawrence Taylor. They had a playoff game vs the Rams led by Anthony Dickerson. Late in the game the Giants were winning but the Rams were doing what they tried all game and it was run Dickerson. They started marching down the field. He was getting 3/4/6 yards per carry. Then they are near the goal line very late in the game and on a big play the Rams coach, Robinson, decides to call a running play up the gut hoping to trick the Giants with their fullback. Needless to say the Giants stuffed the run and ended up winning the game.

That was a HOF running back in a groove, and the coaching staff decides to take the ball out of his hands? That was nuts. Thus (other instances too) I have grown up believing stars win. And you play them and run them and play them until the other team screams UNCLE. I do understand exceptions however.
You,re welcome. It's so much better this way. Barking dogs should be left outside.

Lawrence Taylor was so much fun to watch. Using French for football, he was the definition of a nonpareil.
 
Very accurate. Great post!
we didn't have a sarah strong or this ashlynn with liv or edwards. But I guess we'll see when we play SCs
While playing at the high post, Ice would be more effective by adding a short spin move toward the basket or at least see if any teammates are breaking and then pass to them or Sarah who might be a better choice to break for the hoop. She has size and great hands and can finish well. Ice normally doesn't look inside, just to pass to the wings.
 
Not concerned with the total points from Ice and Jana. Would like to see more shot blocking with less fouls. In close games, 1-2 denied layups can change the momentum and foul shots made or missed often determines the final outcome.
Totally agree about the shot blocking. It is mostly missing by our two Bigs. A serious blocked shot can get in the head of an opponent. Unfortunately, in women's basketball, such attempts by players often result in ghost fouls being called. IMO, quick whistles plague inside play. The NBA seems to have settled this problem by not blowing the whistle if the shot is made. College basketball are endless calls and reviews to the determent of the game. The two-hour game is history.
 
I’m often confused by your posts, though it’s probably my fault. It seems like you shift the topic in midstream, or maybe I just can’t keep up.

As for this remark, I’m particularly puzzled. In head to head competition, Paige alone has been the equal of Caitlin, splitting the series, and Azzi by herself proved that she’s at least Caitlin’s equal in their only game together. I’d express a caveat with regard to the last final four game, in which Caitlin, surrounded by a veteran squad put up better numbers.

The notion that a lineup with both Paige and Azzi would merely equal Caitlin seems odd to me.
I was being kind.
Anyhow, my posts have been saying UCONN is fine with just 3 players. And I use Iowa as a case in point. That's the context of my posts. What's confusingto me is why you brought up Wornack and Martin as if they were significant difference makers in 2022-2023 offensively while I was disagreeing wiht anyone that suggested UCONN needs more than 3 scorers vs a team like SOCar.
 
I was being kind.
Anyhow, my posts have been saying UCONN is fine with just 3 players. And I use Iowa as a case in point. That's the context of my posts. What's confusingto me is why you brought up Wornack and Martin as if they were significant difference makers in 2022-2023 offensively while I was disagreeing wiht anyone that suggested UCONN needs more than 3 scorers vs a team like SOCar.
In the game against us on the OOC in 22-23, Martin shot the lights out from 3. Warnock also played really well. But that was only in the context of misreading your kindness. Interestingly, we had 4 or even 5 serious scorers that season with Azzi Caroline Lou and Aaliyah//Dorka. Of course, it all went to heck with injuries before January. This is also where we are this season with 4 or 5 scorers in Paige Sarah Azzi Ash and Aubrey, if only the injury gods will allow it.

And by “serious scorer” I mean someone who will average 8-10+ points all season but can bust out for 20+ points when needed.
 
I think yes. Its a big issue because UConn does not have the post play required to win in March. Not even close. Ice isn't ever going to happen. Maybe Jana someday, but not this season. Sarah as a 5 could work, but not sure that's a solution in the long run.

Honestly, not sure what they can even do at this point. Maybe Geno will figure it out. Hoping he does.
 
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Did Boston's presence limit SC guards or Stewart limit UConn's guards? No! Also, while Jana has not been blocking many shots she has been altering a number of them and causing shots to be missed.
Which year? It doesn't matter. South Carolina guards were never consistent
 
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For years, I have been saying that we need "big" players 6' 5" and over. Now that we got one: WHAT?
Geno had one last year (Amari) and Piath a couple years before. Next year, he’ll add 6-6 Gandy Malou-Mamel

A 6-6 center from Limerick, Ireland, Malou-Mamel represented Ireland at the 2024 FIBA U20 Women's EuroBasket Division B tournament. She averaged 10.6 points and 10.0 rebounds in the tournament.

"Gandy is in some ways raw, but she has a couple characteristics that are really valuable," Auriemma said. "She runs the floor great, and she wants to play defense and rebound the ball. We certainly could use another big post presence, and she'll be a great compliment to the bigs we have on the roster now."

Malou-Mamel attends Gill St. Bermard's in Gladstone, N.J. She averaged 16.6 points, 9.6 rebounds and 2.6 blocks per game in 2023-24.


 
Geno had one last year (Amari) and Piath a couple years before. Next year, he’ll add 6-6 Gandy Malou-Mamel

A 6-6 center from Limerick, Ireland, Malou-Mamel represented Ireland at the 2024 FIBA U20 Women's EuroBasket Division B tournament. She averaged 10.6 points and 10.0 rebounds in the tournament.

"Gandy is in some ways raw, but she has a couple characteristics that are really valuable," Auriemma said. "She runs the floor great, and she wants to play defense and rebound the ball. We certainly could use another big post presence, and she'll be a great compliment to the bigs we have on the roster now."

Malou-Mamel attends Gill St. Bermard's in Gladstone, N.J. She averaged 16.6 points, 9.6 rebounds and 2.6 blocks per game in 2023-24.


How come other colleges/university acquire big players and they are used and turn out well. All over especially South Carolina.
 
Geno had one last year (Amari) and Piath a couple years before. Next year, he’ll add 6-6 Gandy Malou-Mamel

A 6-6 center from Limerick, Ireland, Malou-Mamel represented Ireland at the 2024 FIBA U20 Women's EuroBasket Division B tournament. She averaged 10.6 points and 10.0 rebounds in the tournament.

"Gandy is in some ways raw, but she has a couple characteristics that are really valuable," Auriemma said. "She runs the floor great, and she wants to play defense and rebound the ball. We certainly could use another big post presence, and she'll be a great compliment to the bigs we have on the roster now."

Malou-Mamel attends Gill St. Bermard's in Gladstone, N.J. She averaged 16.6 points, 9.6 rebounds and 2.6 blocks per game in 2023-24.


Geno had me at “(Gandy) wants to rebound.” :)
 
Geno had one last year (Amari) and Piath a couple years before. Next year, he’ll add 6-6 Gandy Malou-Mamel

A 6-6 center from Limerick, Ireland, Malou-Mamel represented Ireland at the 2024 FIBA U20 Women's EuroBasket Division B tournament. She averaged 10.6 points and 10.0 rebounds in the tournament.

"Gandy is in some ways raw, but she has a couple characteristics that are really valuable," Auriemma said. "She runs the floor great, and she wants to play defense and rebound the ball. We certainly could use another big post presence, and she'll be a great compliment to the bigs we have on the roster now."

Malou-Mamel attends Gill St. Bermard's in Gladstone, N.J. She averaged 16.6 points, 9.6 rebounds and 2.6 blocks per game in 2023-24.


I like Gandy Malou- Mamel... Then in 2026 there is a wonderful
"unknown" named "THE BIG O". For those of you who are
unfamiliar with Croatian History... Google: the Croatian Women's National
Team for U17 on the Fiba website... UCONN is in her FINAL 12 listing!
(please, this is intended to be humorous... not harsh comments, if possible!)
 
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There was a side discussion during the game about whether or not we can win given our lack of traditional Offensive post play. @hoophuskee @donalddoowop among others.

My opinion is we DONT need it to win (we won by our biggest margin last night without it) but It's a huge help. Heres why:
Post play can:
-Open up the perimeter by drawing d's down
-Create typically high %shots
-Create dbl teams down low
- slow the game down in the half court creating more opportunities especially if you have a player who can pass out of the post.
Etc

This team is built different and it's not the Wnba/Nba where all teams are theoretically equal and most teams have former AA's at the 5.

We have 3-4 very high %scorers. When they shoot like that, this IS their game. It's not an anomaly.

Paige and Sarah do Create double teams and open things up. They do get to the lane and score inside. Plus they are the best player and freshman in the country, respectively. We also have the best 3rd and 4th options in fudd and shade.

That means a lot.

Final statement: Post play is super valuable. We don't have it- yet we win, and are co-favorites to win it all. If we NEED post play to win, and we beat one or both SCs coming up, then the NEED argument just dissolves into theory.

If we NEED post play to win=we don't have it now, does this mean it's impossible to win it all this year? I bet differently.
We need OFFENSE from the post to win it all. That much is glaringly obvious. Without it the following things happen:

Our three point shooting suffers because defense can double up knowing they are, effectively playing 5 on 3
Our three point defense or "perimeter defense" suffers because people get gassed
Our foul point shooting suffers because our elite defenders get gassed making up for the two or three people who do not score
do not preach to me about intangibles because he have had people like Swin, Ashja (SP), Tamika, And oh so many others who rebound the ball and score.
In the absence of athleticism and scoring from Chen you are going to have very serious issues when confronted with speedy, athletic guards. Like you are going to be playing 2 on 4 or 5. Good times.

Given all that, We did pretty well. It could have been a crap show.

I for one do not get the Chen love fest with athletic teams. Not going to happen for her there.
KK is athletic. Shooting not so much.

but winning without post presence not going to occur
Also exhausts Paige, Sarah and others. Insane. Absence of inside out game. Assists go down. Cannot play sets. Post game seriously lacking right now. Limits us. Bad times.
 
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How come other colleges/university acquire big players and they are used and turn out well. All over especially South Carolina.
How come other than 1 year in the 15 or 16 that "all those colleges" with the exception of SoCar haven't had near the success of UCONN? SoCar- sure. But who else. Please identify these other teams when you say "all over."
 
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Been seeing a bit of vitriol towards some players, and that material got removed. We get it. Some are not happy with their contributions, etc, however IMHO this team is a work in progress. Let's see what happens over the next few weeks before assuming anything about March. Peace.
 
Well we don't need a Charles or Lobo or Wolters or even a Dolson. But if we could get El Alfy and/or ICE to a JMoore or ONO or even a Schumaker level, that would be very, very helpful.
 
One distinction that might help: back to the basket vs face to the basket play. This maps (almost) onto the difference between low-post vs high-post play. Geno has always preferred bigs who can play high as well as low post. On offense, a high post, face to the basket scorer opens up the paint while a low post, back to the basket scorer clogs it up.

In high school, both Ice and Jana showed good high post skills. Jana has yet to rebuild this portion of her game since the injury. Ice could take more elbow jumpers. Jana wants to drive to the lane but hasn’t recovered this ability yet, at least not at a D1 level.

If I think about recent post players, I see various examples of these skills. Aaliyah had the full package by her last two season, good low post moves, an excellent elbow jumper and could drive the lane and the baseline really well. Liv was a tremendous high post passer and had pretty good low post moves. Phee had tremendous low post moves, a great midrange shooting game and was a brilliant passer. By her last two seasons, Gabby had a similar arsenal. Stewie was a tremendous low post scorer, but her midrange and perimeter game may have been even better. When I think of Stewie, the phrase ‘back to the basket’ isn’t what mainly comes to mind.

Another thing UConn’s recent posts were good at is transition scoring. Liv and Aaliyah ran the floor really well and could finish at the rim on the break. We haven’t seen much of this from Ice and Jana, but they move well enough to add this to their game. Having a big who can run the floor can be intimidating to opposing teams.

The upshot of all this is that back to the basket game is only one part of a good big’s arsenal. For reference, it’s almost all Audi has, besides setting good screens at the top of the key. Geno wants more than this from his post players. Ice and Jana will develop this broader game in the coming months and years.

Signs that they’re developing well in Geno’s scheme would be
  1. More reliable low post moves
  2. Reliable midrange shooting
  3. Driving the lane and the baseline
  4. Running the court in transition
  5. Finishing on the break
All of this will come. I’m willing to watch patiently.

PS: oops, I forgot Dorka. I’m sure everyone can fill in the blanks for her.
With Dorka, we'd be at or near the top of the ratings. Our centers take up space but neither is a great rebounder consistently. Neither strikes me as a "natural".
 
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