Do we need OFFENSE from the post to win it all?

[tomcat]

This is a deficiency that needs to be treated.

Evident again last night, but not damaging as Ash/Paige/SS took apart IA St. I was fortunate to be there sitting with other UConn folks who've watched for a while and the lack of production was a common topic. Having as many points as fouls is a not a recipe for success.

Yes - Ice/Jana play aspects of their positions well & they are troopers playing through contact and anxiety...

BUT - without post production we are only very good team, not a FF team (IMHO).

We limited Audi Crooks to 22 (and she is a pleasure to watch BTW), but against some teams our match-up won't be as effective without strengthening this component of our game. I concur with the many BYers who are increasingly concerned about this as the season gains maturity and we see a pattern.

Love everyone, but I don't see much progress here.

Well said. UConn probably doesn't need a ton of offensive production from the post, but it does need consistent defensive prowess which, as of now, it does not have. The two bigs will improve, but the question is whether they will improve enough by tournament time to make the difference.

 

[MSGRET]

Well said. UConn probably doesn't need a ton of offensive production from the post, but it does need consistent defensive prowess which, as of now, it does not have. The two bigs will improve, but the question is whether they will improve enough by tournament time to make the difference.

It took Stewie most of her Freshman year before the lights came on. Rebecca said she didn't get it in her Freshman season. Look at other bigs that came to UConn and they struggled their first year or two. Many of them did get better as the season went on and I think it will happen with this group also.

 

[BBallF]

I think this was said already but just to button it down. We, meaning a UCONN team with Paige, Sarah, Ash and Azzi, do not need post offense to win but we definitely need post defense including rebounding to win. You can't win a game if the other team is shooting lay ups and put backs and you have to rely on outside shooting, unless it's like last night which is the exception. If Ice and Jana continue to develop and just do their jobs out there, we will be fine. Any points you get from them is a bonus.

 

[BBallF]

It took Stewie most of her Freshman year before the lights came on. Rebecca said she didn't get it in her Freshman season. Look at other bigs that came to UConn and they struggled their first year or two. Many of them did get better as the season went on and I think it will happen with this group also.

Agreed. It seems like it should be so much easier for them not having to worry about scoring for this team.

 

[JellyBean]

You want to have a post presence but it's not like we need a huge post presence to win it all. If Ice and Jana can give us 6-10 points a night and 6-14 rebounds, it would help greatly, especially on the offensive rebounding side of things. With the options we have on the perimeter, we won't need a huge post presence to win it all. I mean if we had a fluid 6'5"-6'8" type player in the post with skills like Lauren Jackson or Brittney Griner in her early Baylor years, I might be okay, but then would that limit the other players?

 

[RockyMTblue2]

If your post is not a reasonable offensive threat 5 may play on 4. This is a hard scenario to image because most opposing bigs don't like to skip around the court doubling somebody up. I think we and Geno are stretching it a bit because we rightly are worried where are bigs are entering conference play. If Jana remains as she is she will be another big that Geno misread in the recruiting process. Please let that not be so.

 

[Cuango]

In 2013, Stewie and Stef averaged 27 pts between them, and Morgan and Kiah added another 9 pts for a total of 36 frontcourt points.
In 2014, Stewie and Stef combined for 33 pts and Morgan and Kiah added another 12 pts for a total of 45 frontcourt points.
In 2015, Stewie and Kiah combined for 23 pts and Morgan and Gabby added another 22 for a total of 45 frontcourt points
In 2016, Stewie and Natalie combined for 25 pts and Phee, Gabby and Morgan added another 30 pts for a total of 55 frontcourt pts.

These are the teams that won 4 NCs in a row.

Thanks for this! Those are some interesting numbers!
The question is, where do Sarah’s numbers go? I would be comfortable predicting 16-20 points from Jana and Ice next season. Throw in Sarah‘s 18-22 and 8-12 from Yanna and Gandy and we are looking at 42 points per game from our front court! This means we need 34-44 points from our backcourt. If Azzi stays and is healthy, I’m thinking this should not be a problem.
Azzi 16-20, Ash 12-14, KK 8-12, Morgan/Allie 10-15, Q/Blanca/Kelis 6-12 comes to 52 ppg! Throw in a top tier transfer at 12-16 ppg and we are looking at 64 +42=106 ppg next season!
By my calculations, we should easily set the all time scoring average next year! The only team we need to be concerned about would be our old foe, Tennessee! Back to the future!
Sorry, I don’t know how to put this into a nice chart!

 

[hoophuskee]

It’s a bit subjective to define the definition of “does UCONN need OFFENSE from the post . . .” without face-to-face. To what degree? Just my interpretation is if the point is do they need to establish a post-game then no way. That’s an illusion. I know we’d like to think or hope you give more time to Jana and Ice then they will be better prepared . . . The problem is that’s the same thing all the elite teams say too about their players (in other words they will get better too.). And the opposing teams we see as an example try so hard to get the ball out of Paige’s hands. So, the answer would be to dump the ball inside to the least efficient players? We all have own ideas of a winning formula but imo that is not a winning formula.

Instead I often agree with Geno and I loved what we saw Tuesday. That’s the formula. Just like a great baseball pitcher that starts and goes a bunch of innings establishing his fastball then later on he uses his off-speed stuff. Or the football teams that establishes the run so they open up the pass or vice-versa. UCONN was doing last night what needs be done and that’s establishing their fastball (3pt shooting.). It was no accident that Geno spoke after the ND game for his team to work to get more 3’s. That is establishing his team’s fastball; their strength. You don’t move away from your strength. You embrace it so that you could try to impose your will your strength on the other team.

We all know that in basketball one player can carry a team. Because we all witnessed Iowa do it not once but twice. And without a post-game last year. And they were pretty close vs. the much more athletic and much taller SoCar team. And there is no way no way no way that the Iowa team should be a better perimeter team than this version of UCONN if healthy.

If it can be accepted that one player means so much, then UCONN has 2 or even 3, don’t they? So yes one player can be off. Two players can be off, but all 3? If Azzi is healthy and has enough time to get into form, then if they were so bad that the Offense gets bogged down to being no good, then how great were they anyway? When you add in the probability that by late February/ early March they would be showing the type of play we’ve seen vs Louisville and Iowa State, then what team won’t go all out to extend their defense to an extreme level that when for example when Paige does pass the ball inside to Ice or Jana or Griff they will be able to take at tops a one-dribble and shoot an inside shot without someone all over them? But not like a post move where Jana is taking 2-4 dribbles spinning one way or the other or like Edwards last year able to dribble hard one away or the other etc. It took a while for her to get that way. To think Jana or Ice will be able to do that with a game on the line expectation that you focus plays for them to do this in NCAA Tourney vs elite teams is an illusion.

Bottomline is that you don’t take the ball out of your multiple superstars hands because of fear they might not be good enough vs others that haven’t given you any indication that they could come through. They shouldn’t be the focus of dump-downs but of receiving passes in order to take quick inside shots. So, instead of relying on lesser players to make moves vs a combo of either more experienced and/or better players, instead you as the coach challenge your superstars to be better. And by them being better because they are superstars working together, then you open up the game for everyone else including the posts. Therefore with the posts, thehy need to be able to score but not as a focus in halfcourt sets. If the Golden State Warrios could be all-time great team with Durant and Curry not featuring height or low post play, then at the lower level of college hoop. the women should be able to do the same.

 

[Just.A.Fan]

You might not need a high percentage shooter in the post to win, but you do need a solid defender who can stay out of foul trouble, and a relentless rebounder.

With all the discussion that has taken place after your 1st response to the topic, yours answered the question perfectly and gets the blue ribbon!

 

[Puppy Love]

My measure of a well balanced team is one that consistently has four players scoring in double figures. I don’t care who they are, but it needs to be consistent so that when one player has an off night, the others can ’win ugly’. Since UConn hasn’t been getting consistent production from the point, it needs to come from the post or they are vulnerable to having bad nights.

 

[gold2323]

Simply, YES

 

[GoUconn7961]

Yes. And you mentioned a greater need for defense. Your post was great and accurate. since it was the first one I didn't want the discussion to turn to the need for defensive post play (which we're fine at) . As you know most posters (not you) will see one word in the title and then not read any subsequent posts. No harm no foul.

I actually don't think we're fine defensively either. I know Jana is still learning, and to some extent Ice is as well, but foul trouble continues to be an issue. They did a much better job against ISU so maybe the lights are clicking on now. One thing I'd like to see is better outlet passes when they're trapped under the basket w/no where to go. Obviously they really need to make those bunnies - that's what has me screaming at the TV LOL.

 

[oldude]

As a reminder, Iowa made it to the last 2 national championships with a couple of 6’2” centers who could rebound and make layups when they were fed dimes by CC on her way to the basket. Iowa was a team made up of spot up shooters, a serviceable forward and one superstar combo guard. Sounds almost familiar, except that UConn might have 2 or 3 superstars by March with Paige, Sarah and hopefully a healthy Azzi.

 

[huskeynut]

Geno has the two headed post. Let's look at the whole picture instead of just the individuals.

The stats are:
Ice: 21 minutes per game, 5.5 points per game, 3.8 rebounds per game, 2.5 assists per game
Jana: 16.4 minutes per game, 6 points per game, 5.7 rebounds per game, 0.7 assists per game.

Combine the stats and most teams will take that combined production every night from the post position. If they continue to play solid defense, we should be in good shape. Both will improve as the season goes forward.

Let's go one step further.
Sarah: 28.5 minutes per game, 17.3 points per game, 8.3 rebounds per game, 3.6 assists per game.

Sarah, Ice and Jana are a strong front line. We should be fine.

 

[HopJim]

Not concerned with the total points from Ice and Jana. Would like to see more shot blocking with less fouls. In close games, 1-2 denied layups can change the momentum and foul shots made or missed often determines the final outcome.

 

[Rowdy831]

If you have Paige, Azzi, Sarah and one other shooter on the perimeter the inside scoring isn't going to matter too much. For one thing the defense will have to get out and play those shooters leaving our bigs alone or at least one on one under the basket. Put backs off rebounds will be the biggest component of their game.

If UConn shoots threes like they have all season before last nights game then the post becomes more important on the scoring front. I see a lot of growth offensively for Jana but she still isn't making the basket after the move which hopefully starts to get better. Ice on the other hand seems to be tentative in her movements which is surprising after the tournament she had last season. In the end I think they can score and will score if the team needs that to win.

Keep in mind that the ISU game is exactly the type of game Geno wants out of this team. Question is can they be consistent on the 3 point shots? btw Ash had an amazing game on offense, but also showed out a little on defense.

 

[Majorthreat]

My measure of a well balanced team is one that consistently has four players scoring in double figures. I don’t care who they are, but it needs to be consistent so that when one player has an off night, the others can ’win ugly’. Since UConn hasn’t been getting consistent production from the point, it needs to come from the post or they are vulnerable to having bad nights.

True,
I know we are and have been a wing/guard-dominated team for the most part for the last 20+ years. This works against 90-95% of the teams since no team has had a dominant post (Griner, Boston excluded) and if they get theirs it's still a win for us. Against an athletic frontcourt with some size like South Carolina, we will need some rebounding and scoring from our bigs. This is what hurt us against ND. There was no threat of scoring from the frontcourt except for Sarah at times, and they stayed home and didn't double-team anyone hence no open 3's and a stifling defence. We were doubling and cheating off players and they hit at least 5, 3's. You have to be able to draw fouls on their bigs, rebound and score anywhere from 8-12 points to keep them honest.
The only playmakers we have is Paige and Sarah. They are normally the player who leads the offense and are usually the team's best passer and dribbler and can get their shot at any time. She is an outstanding shooter but she can't be relied upon to score 15+ every night. Can she take someone off the dribble? It seems like if she misses 2 shots she stops shooting and it's in her head. The best starting 5 is or should be Paige, Sarah, Ice, Azzi and Ashlyn. That leaves no scoring punch off the bench until Griffin returns

 

[RockyMTblue2]

This has been an interesting exercise, the whole 4 guard thing sparked by Geno's remark. He can do it and make it work most of the time. Doesn't mean he wants to. Would he want a scoring forward and a scoring center? Sure. Actually SURE. While we are on what he'd like, he'd like a point guard who scores more than Kaitlyn and KK (have we got one on the way?). We are about to play a game that may really test a lot of things, stirring up a hornet's nest of posts - our kind. Wandering around here a bit, so back to business. A 4 guard offense is not the norm for all sorts of reasons. It's a bandage applied out of necessity.

 

[donalddoowop]

You want to have a post presence but it's not like we need a huge post presence to win it all. If Ice and Jana can give us 6-10 points a night and 6-14 rebounds, it would help greatly, especially on the offensive rebounding side of things. With the options we have on the perimeter, we won't need a huge post presence to win it all. I mean if we had a fluid 6'5"-6'8" type player in the post with skills like Lauren Jackson or Brittney Griner in her early Baylor years, I might be okay, but then would that limit the other players?

Did Boston's presence limit SC guards or Stewart limit UConn's guards? No! Also, while Jana has not been blocking many shots she has been altering a number of them and causing shots to be missed.

 

[Longtime fan]

There was a side discussion during the game about whether or not we can win given our lack of traditional Offensive post play. @hoophuskee @donalddoowop among others.

My opinion is we DONT need it to win (we won by our biggest margin last night without it) but It's a huge help. Heres why:
Post play can:
-Open up the perimeter by drawing d's down
-Create typically high %shots
-Create dbl teams down low
- slow the game down in the half court creating more opportunities especially if you have a player who can pass out of the post.
Etc

This team is built different and it's not the Wnba/Nba where all teams are theoretically equal and most teams have former AA's at the 5.

We have 3-4 very high %scorers. When they shoot like that, this IS their game. It's not an anomaly.

Paige and Sarah do Create double teams and open things up. They do get to the lane and score inside. Plus they are the best player and freshman in the country, respectively. We also have the best 3rd and 4th options in fudd and shade.

That means a lot.

Final statement: Post play is super valuable. We don't have it- yet we win, and are co-favorites to win it all. If we NEED post play to win, and we beat one or both SCs coming up, then the NEED argument just dissolves into theory.

If we NEED post play to win=we don't have it now, does this mean it's impossible to win it all this year? I bet differently.

What we have to do is look at the Notre Dame game, and figure out what we must do differently to win that game. We could not free up outside shots and went 3-14 or some such. So that game needed interior danger for ND, and there was none.

 

[hoophuskee]

True,
Against an athletic frontcourt with some size like South Carolina, we will need some rebounding and scoring from our bigs.

How much rebounding did Iowa need going against SoCar back in 22-23? And in 23-24 they were right there in the 4th qtr of that game as well. If iowa could beat SoCar one year and be close the next, then why can't this UCONN team without much post scoring have similar success vs SoCar the same way Iowa didn't have much post scoring?

 

[hoophuskee]

What we have to do is look at the Notre Dame game, and figure out what we must do differently to win that game. We could not free up outside shots and went 3-14 or some such. So that game needed interior danger for ND, and there was none.

But Geno said after the game that his team needed to work more on taking more 3's (and making them ofc). Not look to work on getting more inside play.

 

[Jaydumo20]

What we have to do is look at the Notre Dame game, and figure out what we must do differently to win that game. We could not free up outside shots and went 3-14 or some such. So that game needed interior danger for ND, and there was none.

True. Very true. It was a good lesson game.

There's also this: I'm a male and I will never have any idea the pain my wife went through during childbirth.
I'm not sure if any UConn bball alum, or big time D1 former players are on the yard who can provide some insight, but:

We as fans have no idea how hard it is to go into an environment like that. We can't comment on its impact. We can neither deny nor confirm it's real effect on the game. So we have to trust what the pros say about it:

It sucks

on a neutral floor that game is probably different

 

[RockyMTblue2]

But Geno said after the game that his team needed to work more on taking more 3's (and making them ofc). Not look to work on getting more inside play.

I do not want to see UConn become another Villanova. It is one dimensional and dull/monotonous. I thought Jana was going to tear it up this Fall and I am anything but writing her off, but she is it for us and must improve. Ice may catch fire, which will be great, but I'm not counting on it. We need them both banging and scoring. 9 and 7 between them is not a front court.