Djery Baptiste (Committed to Vanderbilt)

[CAHUSKY]

Okafor and Thabeet to name two. This kid looks like he could be an animal. Very athletic big man. He is the kind of big man this team needs to have.

No love for Jake?

 

[intlzncster]

No love for Jake?

No one, I mean no one, had flow like Jake. Just great great flow.

 

[otp85]

Got it, getting 31pts in one game in a camp setting where no defense was played is now averaging 30ppg in a mythical league..I hope no one is taking this as me not wanting Jones, because I do and if his skill level catches up with his athleticism he is league bound, but I just don't quite understand the sentiment that if KO were to get Clarke instead this is somehow settling for crumbs. We'll agree to disagree.

I've got to say I almost completely agree with Ace on this one. I for one am extremely high on Derrick Jones and would love it if we landed him, but; if we don't, and we get Clarke, then to me that is still a win.

I don't think Clarke has the NBA upside of Jones; Jones is a skilled offensive weapon and Clarke is an energy guy by trade. But I challenge anyone to watch Chris Clarke play and tell me they don't want him on their team. In my opinion the worst case scenario with Clarke is we get 4 years of a quicker/stronger Lasan Kromah and best case we get 3 or 4 years of Cleanthony Early/Kawhi Leonard

 

[otp85]

Stone, Comanche, Koumadje, Baptiste...nice options to have. Comanche might be the best overall fit....less likely than Stone to be one-and-done, less of a project than other two. Plus, it would be very nice to get another player from CA.

I agree with you about Comanche possibly being the fit for this team/style, but if you believe as I do that we will get Enoch then their games may be too similar to coexist? I have to think the increased interest in Koumadje and Baptiste is for this reason.

 

[azescobar]

Lots of good options across the board. I always like OTP85's posts, and agree that no matter how the '15 class shakes out, it should be strong and versatile. Our 1a) and 1b) options are potential pros, but our 1c) and even 1d) options still project to be very solid 4 year guys. I really like the Clarke/Kromah comparison defensively. Clarke probably projects to be an even better defender than Lasan and a great glue guy. Lasan had a better J than Clarke does now, but that is a part of Clarke's game that I'm sure will improve, even though we would never confuse him w/Rashad. I think we are all just antsy at this point to see how it all plays out ,but it is early. I don't know how realistic the package deal is anymore, but I think if you put together any combination of our top targets right now we'd be happy.

 

[David 76]

So going from 2 guys who have played 0 minutes of college basketball to two other guys who have played 0 minutes of college basketball is a quite a downgrade?

So, we have to judge all high school players as equal??

 

[intlzncster]

I agree with you about Comanche possibly being the fit for this team/style, but if you believe as I do that we will get Enoch then their games may be too similar to coexist? I have to think the increased interest in Koumadje and Baptiste is for this reason.

Absolutely no reason you can't play Comanche/Enoch at the same time. Just cause they're similar doesn't mean it wouldn't work. As the opposing team, You'd have to pick your poison. And there would be plenty of height/athleticism defensively.

 

[David 76]

I like this kid too.

And I think both sides of this argument are silly. There are factors that go into how a recruit turns out.
1) Their assessed ability as a high school player
2) Their potential to grow
3) Their personality to including work ethic, commitment. plays well with others, etc
4) There are unknowns that no one could predict

To say the ranking of not only the "experts" but are coaches are meaningless is even sillier than saying only go after the Best ranked student you could get. The rankings are a guide. They don't mean everything. But they don't mean nothing.

Even the statement that beyond the top 10, rankings mean nothing does not fit this argument. First, Stone is top 10. Second, as 7774 later argued, there is a minor correlation. A minor correlation is not none and I question how this data was formed.
However that data would say there is little difference between Clark and all the others but that Stone would clearly be a sure fire winner.

On the other hand you certainly don't need to denigrate Emeka to force the opposite point.

I realize there are people here who feel we could kill the goose that layed the golden egg if we go after top recruits. I think it is a real concern. That is where we have to trust KO will not pursue prima -donnas. Getting top recruits hasn't destroyed Kansas or KY and I think we can trust KO not to become the squid and sucks up to these legends in their own mind.

 

[7774]

So, we have to judge all high school players as equal??

Obviously not all high school players in America. But players in the 10-100 range in the rankings I do view as equal unknowns. There is a giant difference between organized college basketball and the high school and AAU games that determine these rankings, and there is just an endless list of players in the lower half of the top 100 that end up outperforming players in the top half.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

I really want Derrick Jones more than anyone else in his class right now.

If we missed out on Stone and got Koumadje or this guy I would be 100% satisified. Both look like future pros with some seasoning. Baptiste is a monster ready to come in to college and bang down low now. He could have a chance to dominate once fully developed. I'm excited to see how this class shapes out with all of these great options for players.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Again I never said settling for crumbs. I guess I just have high ambitions, and you are comfortable with second best.

Oh god. You're an inspiration.

 

[DogMania]

Clarke has a better chance to play right away due to his abilities and play for 4 years……….he's a better defender, passer and ball handler and that's a no doubter just by watching……I like Jones but elite athleticism doesn't mean anything unless you can handle it and shoot it…….he's not strong either while Clarke clearly has a ready-body. I will take either of them I just like the ready guys and the ones we know what we will get, and they work hard to improve and when they do become elite players. Funny how we say Clarke can't get to the rim like in his video's yet have we seen a video of Jones doing anything from the perimeter at all?? Hardly……..everyone has an opinion and I am fine with either of them as I say. I will smile if we get either……...

I've watched tape on both and saw Clarke play at Peach Jam on TV last week. It's a small sample, but Jones looks like a better prospect now and down the road. He's longer and a little more athletic. Jones also seems to have remarkable hands, catching the ball extremely well while on the move. Neither took many jump shots but both had nice form. Both seemed to handle the ball okay. Neither showed they could lay it up with their off-hand, something they can both work on and learn.

I think Jones is the bigger catch by a big enough margin, that it's worth trying to wait it out for him until it looks like we're falling out of the race for him. I like Clarke, but he didn't appear to be anywhere close to being one of Boo William' top offensive options.

I didn't see anything in Clarke's game that made me believe that he is any more ready to contribute compared to Jones.

I'm fine if we end up with Clarke, but I think Jones has a better chance of being an impact player than Clarke and is worth holding out for.

 

[Gurleyman]

I've watched tape on both and saw Clarke play at Peach Jam on TV last week. It's a small sample, but Jones looks like a better prospect now and down the road. He's longer and a little more athletic. Jones also seems to have remarkable hands, catching the ball extremely well while on the move. Neither took many jump shots but both had nice form. Both seemed to handle the ball okay. Neither showed they could lay it up with their off-hand, something they can both work on and learn. I think Jones is the bigger catch by a big enough margin, that it's worth trying to wait it out for him until it looks like we're falling out of the race for him. I like Clarke, but he didn't appear to be anywhere close to being one of Boo William' top offensive options. I didn't see anything in Clarke's game that made me believe that he is any more ready to contribute compared to Jones. I'm fine if we end up with Clarke, but I think Jones has a better chance of being an impact player than Clarke and is worth holding out for.

Maybe it isn't fair to Jones, since everybody is different, but when I hear about a wing player who relies on athleticism, I recall Marcus Johnson and Doug Wrenn, and to a degree both Rudies, although Johnson may have panned out better without injuries and Gay certainly had a ton of skill. But it tends to be hard to rely just on athleticism.

When I hear about a guy with a high motor who guards people, I think DePriest, Donny, Ricky, Freeman, Kromah, Roscoe. They didn't all score a lot, we needed them to win.

But I don't know enough about either to say i'd prefer one over the other - maybe Jones will be able to guard people as well as Clarke in college and be a better weapon. I like the description of Clarke better as a complement to an Adams-Purvis-Hamilton team, but whether the description of Clarke matches reality and whether Purvis and Hamilton are still around are question marks.

 

[BNich]

No love for Jake?

I was just a kid back then, wasn't aware of where he is from.

 

[DogMania]

Maybe it isn't fair to Jones, since everybody is different, but when I hear about a wing player who relies on athleticism, I recall Marcus Johnson and Doug Wrenn, and to a degree both Rudies, although Johnson may have panned out better without injuries and Gay certainly had a ton of skill. But it tends to be hard to rely just on athleticism.

When I hear about a guy with a high motor who guards people, I think DePriest, Donny, Ricky, Freeman, Kromah, Roscoe. They didn't all score a lot, we needed them to win.

But I don't know enough about either to say i'd prefer one over the other - maybe Jones will be able to guard people as well as Clarke in college and be a better weapon. I like the description of Clarke better as a complement to an Adams-Purvis-Hamilton team, but whether the description of Clarke matches reality and whether Purvis and Hamilton are still around are question marks.

I think all the talk...I wonder if it was based on one report...the idea that Clarke having a big time motor and defensive wiz is a bit overblown. Frankly, I didn't see that in the one Peach Jam game I watched. He did work hard on D, but I didn't see a lock down defender. I do give him credit for having a high desire to play D, which you don't see all the time. But to want him based on someone evaluation on how hard he defends doesn't mean he's going to be a defensive savant at the D1 level, and that Jones will be less of a defender. Based on what saw, I think Jones can be an even better defender due to his athleticism and length. He's going to be really tough for wings to shoot over. Hopefully he'll learn from KO if he comes here, how to stay in front of his man, but if he doesn't, I like his chances of blocking shots from behind. Clarke actually showed some nice recovery instincts blocking shots from behind, but I didn't see enough to tell if that's something he does often.

Based on what I've seen, read, the superior numbers he's putting up compared to Clarke and what just about everyone is saying about him, Jones looks like a very special player and likely game changer once his game matures. There were a few 3s he nailed in the clips and he really has a nice stroke. Granted, Sticks showed a nice stroke but could never quite get the range down on a consistent basis, so you never know till they get here and play for a while if either of these two will develop into a consistent jump shooter, score mid-range off the bounce or whatever mature offensive game one would hope for a high-major wing.

As I've said a few times, I'd be fine if with getting Clarke, but not till it seems Jones is out of reach. Contrary to what some have posted, I think Clarke looks like a recruit who's going to take time to develop and contribute ahead of players that we'll already have when he arrives. I think he could turn out to be a very good player by his junior or senior year, while Jones looks like a player who would have a bigger role early, just due to his ability to score in the open floor and jump over people, catch and dunk in the half-court. The one concern is, depending on how quickly Jones developes, he could end up a one or two-and-done. I'd take 2 of Jones based on what I've seen over 3 or 4 of Clarke.

This one will be very interesting to follow down the road, in which player contributes most to his college team. Sometimes you see a player like Jones show so much athleticism and potential and leave after one modest year of contribution to his team, while a slightly lesser talented recruit sticks around 3 to 4 years and has a much bigger contribution that leads to an NC. Bazz is an excellent example. He had solid contribution in 2010/11 that netted us NC #3 as a freshman. He developed steadily over the next 3 years and not only competed for POY but led UConn to NC #4. One can easily make an argument that 4 years of Bazz was worth so much more than some other more heralded PGs that were in his class or even the one after that, who ended up leaving early for the NBA without having nearly the impact that Bazz had on UConn. With that said, the fact that none of us have a crystal ball, I want Jones over Clarke by enough that I hope KO doesn't pull the trigger on Clarke too soon, assuming we're even near or at the top of his list of interested programs.

FWIW, and it's just a hunch, I like our chances with Jones. I don't see him or his family the type that will be sold on the glitz of UK and the squid, but maybe I'm dead wrong about that. I think the PT outlook looks very good for whatever wing we get since it's a position that we don't have a lot of depth compared to the guard spots. Similarly I think we're attractive for the 2015 bigs since we're thin and unproven at the 4 & 5. Sorry to go on so, which I do far too often, but finishing off this thought, if you look at the offensive production that our bigs, not including Daniels, provided in the NCAA tournament this past spring, it was endemic. Without looking the stats up again, Brimah & Nolan combined for 0 to 4 points a game during the last 4 rounds of the tournament. As promising Brimah looks, which I think his ceiling is high, I think any pair of 2015 bigs should feel very confident that they'll earn plenty of PT, plus have the talent around them to make a deep tournament run over the next few years.

The though of a 2015 class of say 1-Adams, 3-Jones, 4-Enoch & 5-Stone would be crazy exciting. I'd even be excited if we don't land Stone, but add one of the rapidly rising 5s such as Baptiste or that 7-3 kid (Koudje sp?) whose name always seems to escape me. Add one of the top guards, Newman or Brisco (though I don't think he's a priority now that we have Adams) to the class and make it a 5 player one would make this UConn's version of a Fab-5.

 

[Hoophound]

reading about recruits instead of watching them is certainly a different approach to evaluating them. I remember the old Scout scouting reports that talked up Dyson's shooting ability and knocked him for his ability to score/create off the bounce...I also remember Scout calling MWill a scorer who needed to work on his PG skills...these were before the days of youtube so you had to go by their words to get a read on recruits before they stepped on campus, thankfully those days are gone. there is plenty of video out there that shows Clarke's passing and ballhandling abilty, hell, in the Peach Jam semifinal I saw him making high low post entry passes to Adebayo that were better than I see from alot of experienced college PGs.

Lol. I thought I was the only person that remembered those reports. I expected Dyson to be raining threes from half court with regularity. Even though Marcus was committed, I was concerned that we needed a pg or we were in trouble due to his "struggles to find the open man and make his teammates better" and his "shoot first mentality".

The goobers that wrote those reports were completely inept or maybe they just made it up.

 

[mauconnfan]

I think all the talk...I wonder if it was based on one report...the idea that Clarke having a big time motor and defensive wiz is a bit overblown. Frankly, I didn't see that in the one Peach Jam game I watched. He did work hard on D, but I didn't see a lock down defender. I do give him credit for having a high desire to play D, which you don't see all the time. But to want him based on someone evaluation on how hard he defends doesn't mean he's going to be a defensive savant at the D1 level, and that Jones will be less of a defender. Based on what saw, I think Jones can be an even better defender due to his athleticism and length. He's going to be really tough for wings to shoot over. Hopefully he'll learn from KO if he comes here, how to stay in front of his man, but if he doesn't, I like his chances of blocking shots from behind. Clarke actually showed some nice recovery instincts blocking shots from behind, but I didn't see enough to tell if that's something he does often.

Based on what I've seen, read, the superior numbers he's putting up compared to Clarke and what just about everyone is saying about him, Jones looks like a very special player and likely game changer once his game matures. There were a few 3s he nailed in the clips and he really has a nice stroke. Granted, Sticks showed a nice stroke but could never quite get the range down on a consistent basis, so you never know till they get here and play for a while if either of these two will develop into a consistent jump shooter, score mid-range off the bounce or whatever mature offensive game one would hope for a high-major wing.

As I've said a few times, I'd be fine if with getting Clarke, but not till it seems Jones is out of reach. Contrary to what some have posted, I think Clarke looks like a recruit who's going to take time to develop and contribute ahead of players that we'll already have when he arrives. I think he could turn out to be a very good player by his junior or senior year, while Jones looks like a player who would have a bigger role early, just due to his ability to score in the open floor and jump over people, catch and dunk in the half-court. The one concern is, depending on how quickly Jones developes, he could end up a one or two-and-done. I'd take 2 of Jones based on what I've seen over 3 or 4 of Clarke.

This one will be very interesting to follow down the road, in which player contributes most to his college team. Sometimes you see a player like Jones show so much athleticism and potential and leave after one modest year of contribution to his team, while a slightly lesser talented recruit sticks around 3 to 4 years and has a much bigger contribution that leads to an NC. Bazz is an excellent example. He had solid contribution in 2010/11 that netted us NC #3 as a freshman. He developed steadily over the next 3 years and not only competed for POY but led UConn to NC #4. One can easily make an argument that 4 years of Bazz was worth so much more than some other more heralded PGs that were in his class or even the one after that, who ended up leaving early for the NBA without having nearly the impact that Bazz had on UConn. With that said, the fact that none of us have a crystal ball, I want Jones over Clarke by enough that I hope KO doesn't pull the trigger on Clarke too soon, assuming we're even near or at the top of his list of interested programs.

FWIW, and it's just a hunch, I like our chances with Jones. I don't see him or his family the type that will be sold on the glitz of UK and the squid, but maybe I'm dead wrong about that. I think the PT outlook looks very good for whatever wing we get since it's a position that we don't have a lot of depth compared to the guard spots. Similarly I think we're attractive for the 2015 bigs since we're thin and unproven at the 4 & 5. Sorry to go on so, which I do far too often, but finishing off this thought, if you look at the offensive production that our bigs, not including Daniels, provided in the NCAA tournament this past spring, it was endemic. Without looking the stats up again, Brimah & Nolan combined for 0 to 4 points a game during the last 4 rounds of the tournament. As promising Brimah looks, which I think his ceiling is high, I think any pair of 2015 bigs should feel very confident that they'll earn plenty of PT, plus have the talent around them to make a deep tournament run over the next few years.

The though of a 2015 class of say 1-Adams, 3-Jones, 4-Enoch & 5-Stone would be crazy exciting. I'd even be excited if we don't land Stone, but add one of the rapidly rising 5s such as Baptiste or that 7-3 kid (Koudje sp?) whose name always seems to escape me. Add one of the top guards, Newman or Brisco (though I don't think he's a priority now that we have Adams) to the class and make it a 5 player one would make this UConn's version of a Fab-5.

Imagine DM you were able to come up with all of this in ONE Peach Jam game? I tend to believe the guys who have seen him more in person and live too…….…..you can't alley oop 20 times game and while I am quite sure Jones is and will be a lot more than that at some point, for now I don't like guys who can't create off the dribble a little at least, but hey that's just me. I really could care less about tons of athleticism, which he as, they also express the need to improve his knowledge of the game which is huge. And I would disagree also on which one may be ready to play right away - just the little things clarke does would put him in position to get some minutes (like Kromah did) Again I have nothing but reading and some "highlight" video's so my thoughts mean little, but I'm okay if Clarke says yes first that we take him and run…….

 

[mauconnfan]

Lol. I thought I was the only person that remembered those reports. I expected Dyson to be raining threes from half court with regularity. Even though Marcus was committed, I was concerned that we needed a pg or we were in trouble due to his "struggles to find the open man and make his teammates better" and his "shoot first mentality".

The goobers that wrote those reports were completely inept or maybe they just made it up.

Roscoe too……lol

 

[RMoore1999]

I think all the talk...I wonder if it was based on one report...the idea that Clarke having a big time motor and defensive wiz is a bit overblown. Frankly, I didn't see that in the one Peach Jam game I watched. He did work hard on D, but I didn't see a lock down defender. I do give him credit for having a high desire to play D, which you don't see all the time. But to want him based on someone evaluation on how hard he defends doesn't mean he's going to be a defensive savant at the D1 level, and that Jones will be less of a defender. Based on what saw, I think Jones can be an even better defender due to his athleticism and length. He's going to be really tough for wings to shoot over. Hopefully he'll learn from KO if he comes here, how to stay in front of his man, but if he doesn't, I like his chances of blocking shots from behind. Clarke actually showed some nice recovery instincts blocking shots from behind, but I didn't see enough to tell if that's something he does often.

Based on what I've seen, read, the superior numbers he's putting up compared to Clarke and what just about everyone is saying about him, Jones looks like a very special player and likely game changer once his game matures. There were a few 3s he nailed in the clips and he really has a nice stroke. Granted, Sticks showed a nice stroke but could never quite get the range down on a consistent basis, so you never know till they get here and play for a while if either of these two will develop into a consistent jump shooter, score mid-range off the bounce or whatever mature offensive game one would hope for a high-major wing.

As I've said a few times, I'd be fine if with getting Clarke, but not till it seems Jones is out of reach. Contrary to what some have posted, I think Clarke looks like a recruit who's going to take time to develop and contribute ahead of players that we'll already have when he arrives. I think he could turn out to be a very good player by his junior or senior year, while Jones looks like a player who would have a bigger role early, just due to his ability to score in the open floor and jump over people, catch and dunk in the half-court. The one concern is, depending on how quickly Jones developes, he could end up a one or two-and-done. I'd take 2 of Jones based on what I've seen over 3 or 4 of Clarke.

This one will be very interesting to follow down the road, in which player contributes most to his college team. Sometimes you see a player like Jones show so much athleticism and potential and leave after one modest year of contribution to his team, while a slightly lesser talented recruit sticks around 3 to 4 years and has a much bigger contribution that leads to an NC. Bazz is an excellent example. He had solid contribution in 2010/11 that netted us NC #3 as a freshman. He developed steadily over the next 3 years and not only competed for POY but led UConn to NC #4. One can easily make an argument that 4 years of Bazz was worth so much more than some other more heralded PGs that were in his class or even the one after that, who ended up leaving early for the NBA without having nearly the impact that Bazz had on UConn. With that said, the fact that none of us have a crystal ball, I want Jones over Clarke by enough that I hope KO doesn't pull the trigger on Clarke too soon, assuming we're even near or at the top of his list of interested programs.

FWIW, and it's just a hunch, I like our chances with Jones. I don't see him or his family the type that will be sold on the glitz of UK and the squid, but maybe I'm dead wrong about that. I think the PT outlook looks very good for whatever wing we get since it's a position that we don't have a lot of depth compared to the guard spots. Similarly I think we're attractive for the 2015 bigs since we're thin and unproven at the 4 & 5. Sorry to go on so, which I do far too often, but finishing off this thought, if you look at the offensive production that our bigs, not including Daniels, provided in the NCAA tournament this past spring, it was endemic. Without looking the stats up again, Brimah & Nolan combined for 0 to 4 points a game during the last 4 rounds of the tournament. As promising Brimah looks, which I think his ceiling is high, I think any pair of 2015 bigs should feel very confident that they'll earn plenty of PT, plus have the talent around them to make a deep tournament run over the next few years.

The though of a 2015 class of say 1-Adams, 3-Jones, 4-Enoch & 5-Stone would be crazy exciting. I'd even be excited if we don't land Stone, but add one of the rapidly rising 5s such as Baptiste or that 7-3 kid (Koudje sp?) whose name always seems to escape me. Add one of the top guards, Newman or Brisco (though I don't think he's a priority now that we have Adams) to the class and make it a 5 player one would make this UConn's version of a Fab-5.

CliffNotes Version?

 

[DogMania]

CliffNotes Version?

Jones > Clarke. Take Clarke if Jones unattainable. How's that for CliffNotes?

 

[Gurleyman]

Jones > Clarke. Take Clarke if Jones unattainable. How's that for CliffNotes?

It's darn near a haiku!

 

[DogMania]

Imagine DM you were able to come up with all of this in ONE Peach Jam game? I tend to believe the guys who have seen him more in person and live too…….…..you can't alley oop 20 times game and while I am quite sure Jones is and will be a lot more than that at some point, for now I don't like guys who can't create off the dribble a little at least, but hey that's just me. I really could care less about tons of athleticism, which he as, they also express the need to improve his knowledge of the game which is huge. And I would disagree also on which one may be ready to play right away - just the little things clarke does would put him in position to get some minutes (like Kromah did) Again I have nothing but reading and some "highlight" video's so my thoughts mean little, but I'm okay if Clarke says yes first that we take him and run…….

Seems you don't like it when someone disagrees with you.

BTW it was more than just one Peach Jam game. I did watch video on both, I agree it's a small sample. I'm entitled to my opinion as you are yours. You seem kinda cranky on the yard lately. Who pissed in your cheerios.

And there were a few times both players scored off the bounce, though neither took any midrange Js. So I don't see how anyone could choose one over the other based on that criteria.

 

[mauconnfan]

Seems you don't like it when someone disagrees with you.

BTW it was more than just one Peach Jam game. I did watch video on both, I agree it's a small sample. I'm entitled to my opinion as you are yours. You seem kinda cranky on the yard lately. Who pissed in your cheerios.

And there were a few times both players scored off the bounce, though neither took any midrange Js. So I don't see how anyone could choose one over the other based on that criteria.

Never said I was right DM……I could care less when someone disagrees with me, just can't imagine you seeing him on ESPN Peach Jam and having that much input I guess, take it for what it's worth - nothing! And this post made me seem cranky? You come up with a lot over a little huh? Maybe you can write a book then on how I am cranky? Not sure who's overreacting here but whatever, I'll move on! Pretty sure if you can read as well as you write I mentioned what my opinion means squat but you seem a little whacked so time to move on!

 

[pj]

Jones > Clarke. Take Clarke if Jones unattainable. How's that for CliffNotes?

I paid $7.99 for that?

 

[Husky68]

That's exactly the rhetoric opposing coaches use now when recruiting top-flight bigs against us. For better or worse, we're developing a reputation as a program that lets guards show their abilities, but that has no use for talented bigs.

Look at the Kentucky game, Nolan got rejected at the rim 3 or 4 times; how many times over the season did Amida get a great pass only to fumble it away. My take (to recruits) is have great guard/wing play which opens up down low for a big who can play and finish.