Did you see Walz make the "palming sign" ? | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Did you see Walz make the "palming sign" ?

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This is great. Let's give all of our opponents something to b1tch about. Are the UConn guards the only wbb players who do this?
 
No, it needs to be cleaned across the whole sport. But it is still ignoring an existing rule.
 
Is this really different from the universal tacit agreement to ignore pushing fouls in the paint unless one player has the ball? As Geno said in his "How to improve the game" interview, it is accepted that opposing post players can wrestle, push, and shove while they fight for position in the paint. When the offensive player gets the ball, then she gets some protection from being pushed, but her defender does not. As with palming, this is the practice in the NBA and the WNBA as well, so there seems to be a universal unwritten practice to ignore the rulebook.

I agree with Geno that the game would be better if they called these fouls in the paint, so that players like Stewie could move more readily in tight quarters under the basket. Defenders would have to match their quickness rather than just shoving them out of a good position.
 
Icebear said:
No, it needs to be cleaned across the whole sport. But it is still ignoring an existing rule.
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Shall we count all of the existing rules that are ignored? How about you get two steps after you pick up the dribble on drives?
 
VAMike23 said:
I don't understand those who are saying that if the rule were enforced, the refs would be calling double dribble. Are we talking about how Mo and Bria palm the ball while dribbling? Or something else? If it's the former, then the proper call would be (if enforced...) a carry. I suppose if she held the ball 'long enough' and also moved her feet, then it's a travel, but we already knew that.

I don't see how double-dribble enters in here.
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There are three basic ways a dribble can end (other than a steal/deflection by the defense or the ball going OB): (a) the player catches the ball after dribbling; (b) the player palms the ball; or (c) the player touches the ball with both hands while dribbling. Once any of these have occurred to end the dribble, then another dribble creates a violation, i.e. a double dribble. Palming is simply one way to create a double dribble under the rules.

Technically it is legal to palm the ball during a dribble as long as you don't touch the ball again. When a flagrant palm occurs on a crossover, many refs incorrectly blow the whistle at that moment - even though no violation has occurred until the ball is touched again by the dribbler.
 
pap49cba said:
Shall we count all of the existing rules that are ignored? How about you get two steps after you pick up the dribble on drives?
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Might be a good idea.
 
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Icebear said:
Nah, Dobbs, after the first 3 times players got called they would stop. They do it because they can get away with it.
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Sure, but you could name many other rules like the non-called traveling rule that does not allow you to take 4 steps after you pick up the dribble to dunk, but is never called in the MCBB or NBA. So why pick on some touchie-feelie rule about palming for WCBB when it also is not enforced in the MCBB or NBA.

This type of nit-picky type of stuff just widens the gulf between WCBB and the men's game, when their are actually some common things that would be good to highlight. Let the women's game be celebrated for knowing how to play fundamental basketball, passing the ball, hitting FTs, getting everybody involved in the offense, setting screens, and all the good things.....,.......and not because it enforces the palming rule, which would just be another thing for guys to fall off their bar stools laughing about.
 
DobbsRover2 said:
Sure, but you could name many other rules like the non-called traveling rule that does not allow you to take 4 steps after you pick up the dribble to dunk, but is never called in the MCBB or NBA. So why pick on some touchie-feelie rule about palming for WCBB when it also is not enforced in the MCBB or NBA.

This type of nit-picky type of stuff just widens the gulf between WCBB and the men's game, when their are actually some common things that would be good to highlight. Let the women's game be celebrated for knowing how to play fundamental basketball, passing the ball, hitting FTs, getting everybody involved in the offense, setting screens, and all the good things.....,..and not because it enforces the palming rule, which would just be another thing for guys to fall off their bar stools laughing about.
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To me it isn't a touchy freely rule at all it changes the game when a player carries the ball. It changes the corners they turn when driving, changes how devastating a crossover can be, changes the ability of the defender to time a dribble and attack for a steal. It may be trivial to some but I see it having a fundamental impact of the game. It is just as wrong in the men's game and the NBA. It isn't a hard rule to enforce.

Learn good fundamental ball handling without it. Palming and carrying the ball is like riding a bike with training wheels.
 
Woof 101 said:
No tongue lashing here but if I had to bring a team into this house, sold out, number one, banners everywhere, Hall of Fame coach, 30 game winning streak etc. I am going to do all I can to get my girls a call or two because it ain't gonna happen on it's own. He did all he could, got T'd up and backed off.

I would remind those who do not watch Geno to do so on March 3rd when we walk into their sell out. Should a couple of ours get in early foul trouble the coat will be off and he will be pointing out anything and everything. Just doing their job .....
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Not sure if they showed it on TV- but Jeff should have been T'd up very early in the game. He was out all the way to the elbow wailing his arms and yelling, may have been a right after a time out. He was so animated - he wanted a T I think. and I love him- but he never stops on the sidelines- ever!
 
Icebear said:
To me it isn't a touchy freely rule at all it changes the game when a player carries the ball. It changes the corners they turn when driving, changes how devastating a crossover can be, changes the ability of the defender to time a dribble and attack for a steal. It may be trivial to some but I see it having a fundamental impact of the game. It is just as wrong in the men's game and the NBA. It isn't a hard rule to enforce.

Learn good fundamental ball handling without it. Palming and carrying the ball is like riding a bike with training wheels.
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I think the refs should call it early on all of them in every game too- I'm w/ you on this one IB! If Diggins or Sims were carrying the ball every time down , while dissecting our defense, we would all be livid! I am a U Conn fan too! Just tryin to keep it real and be fair!
 
There are a lot of rules that are made up that don't really have any positive impact in the game, and palming is one of them, just as the for people who don't like the dunk, the rule that banned the dunk was cheered on by some fans back in the late 1960s.

There are other aspects of the game that I'm more concerned about, as when a player in today's game went up for a layup and a defender got some of the ball and then slammed her to the court. And of course it's totally legal, although what Slaughter was doing in behind the play with a right arm that seemed to be helping the throw-down is a different matter.

Some may want to make a big deal about palming, but I think attention might be better spent looking at the problems that really matter, and I have never seen a player injured by palming or a game adversely affected by it. But we can all pick our different issues to fight about. Palming would likely be #99 on my list of 100 battles to crusade against. Plus putting in that big effort in a likely futile attempt to undo 15 years worth of training for a hard-to-call movement that would gum up the game and make most fans irritated? Whatever.
 
stamfordhusky said:
There are three basic ways a dribble can end (other than a steal/deflection by the defense or the ball going OB): (a) the player catches the ball after dribbling; (b) the player palms the ball; or (c) the player touches the ball with both hands while dribbling. Once any of these have occurred to end the dribble, then another dribble creates a violation, i.e. a double dribble. Palming is simply one way to create a double dribble under the rules.

Technically it is legal to palm the ball during a dribble as long as you don't touch the ball again. When a flagrant palm occurs on a crossover, many refs incorrectly blow the whistle at that moment - even though no violation has occurred until the ball is touched again by the dribbler.
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There is also (d) the player holds the ball against the body, like the hip. IIRC, it is also a double dribble when a the ball hits the hip or leg on the way down, if it's still touching the hand. That does actually happen now and then but I don't see it called. Admittedly not a 'basic' way of ending the dribble, or much of a big deal, either.

RE: your second paragraph - that's interesting, and different than my original understanding of the 'carry' rule, which was that you could not put your hand under the equator of the ball, the idea being that it allowed you to do a much more aggressive crossover (for example) and still keep your dribble live/legal. I can't remember if the last time the carry was discussed on the BY , someone might have posted some of the language in the DI rulebook. Anyway this stuff is interesting for me. Thanks for your post.
 
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Biff said:
He did it several times and I think that was part of the accumulated whining that probably set up his technical.
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I don't mind when a coach tries to work on the refs a bit but when Moriah went down in front of their bench he tried to yank her up by one arm like a rag doll. Fortunately Moriah is a lot tougher than she might appear. Take it easy on our little MoJet please Mr. Walz.
 
As Ice correctly pointed out, palming -- particularly at the NBA level -- has had a huge impact on the men's game. Really, really big impact.

Little realistic chance of putting the genie back in the bottle, though, and most fans couldn't care less. :rolleyes:
 
Icebear said:
Doing that isn't so much whining it is trying to get the edge. He is absolutely correct about MoJet constantly turning the ball over.
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and he's a lurker on the Boneyard
 
DobbsRover2 said:
There are a lot of rules that are made up that don't really have any positive impact in the game, and palming is one of them, just as the for people who don't like the dunk, the rule that banned the dunk was cheered on by some fans back in the late 1960s.

There are other aspects of the game that I'm more concerned about, as when a player in today's game went up for a layup and a defender got some of the ball and then slammed her to the court. And of course it's totally legal, although what Slaughter was doing in behind the play with a right arm that seemed to be helping the throw-down is a different matter.

Some may want to make a big deal about palming, but I think attention might be better spent looking at the problems that really matter, and I have never seen a player injured by palming or a game adversely affected by it. But we can all pick our different issues to fight about. Palming would likely be #99 on my list of 100 battles to crusade against. Plus putting in that big effort in a likely futile attempt to undo 15 years worth of training for a hard-to-call movement that would gum up the game and make most fans irritated? Whatever.
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One doesn't exclude dealing the other. Another reason for addressing palming along with other similar rules is they are only violations and can help clean up the game without putting either team foul jeopardy. Again if you call palming it will quickly correct itself and the issue is resolved. Neglecting it leads to the continual degradation that has led to the present situation.

My current frustration is how they are now calling fouls on defenders when they move their feet playing good D and the ball handler fends them off with an extended forearm. When the offensive player does that it is a a foul on her for fending off. Stef got called for a foul yesterday in just that situation. The preseason POE was clear on this point.
 
Icebear said:
One doesn't exclude dealing the other. Another reason for addressing palming along with other similar rules is they are only violations and can help clean up the game without putting either team foul jeopardy. Again if you call palming it will quickly correct itself and the issue is resolved. Neglecting it leads to the continual degradation that has led to the present situation.

My current frustration is how they are now calling fouls on defenders when they move their feet playing good D and the ball handler fends them off with an extended forearm. When the offensive player does that it is a a foul on her for fending off. Stef got called for a foul yesterday in just that situation. The preseason POE was clear on this point.
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That I will agree on. It seems like the ball handler can get a call on any play just by dribbling at an angle into the defender when they're driving into the paint. It's a judgment call, and obviously the defender is trying to cut off angle toward the basket, but as noted on the play before the KLM slam where Stef gets called when there's slight contact on a drive toward the basket, that's getting too nitpicky. Teams now know with certain refs that late in the halves they can pour in a lot of points from the FT line by driving the lane and getting some contact after they've gotten the other team over the limit. You almost have to play matador defense. It used to be that you at least had to do a soccer dive to get a call, which at least was properly rewarding a player for acting abilities, whereas now you don't even have to act.
 
VAMike23 said:
RE: your second paragraph - that's interesting, and different than my original understanding of the 'carry' rule, which was that you could not put your hand under the equator of the ball, the idea being that it allowed you to do a much more aggressive crossover (for example) and still keep your dribble live/legal. I can't remember if the last time the carry was discussed on the BY , someone might have posted some of the language in the DI rulebook. Anyway this stuff is interesting for me. Thanks for your post.
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Assume that a player palms the ball - but actually throws a pass in the same motion. Then there is no violation (assuming there is no travel). Likewise if the player palms but simply lets the ball go, then again no violation (as long as she doesn't touch the ball again).
 
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The palming that most people are complaining about is the practice as the ball rises of putting your hand under the ball and then rotating around to the top of the ball - it gives the player no advantage and there really is no reason to do it as you could get the same basic 'feel' on the ball by placing you hand on top of the ball as it is rising and moving you hand up as the ball moves up. This type of palming is almost never called and would not constitute a double dribble because the ball is never at rest in the hand and its natural up down motion is never stopped. The type of carry that is called though still infrequently is when the ball's up down motion is stopped by moving the ball horizontally before returning it to an up down dribbling motion. I don't have a big problem with the non-calls - it really isn't giving the dribbler an unfair advantage, though I do think it is getting worse and if players don't control this tendency themselves the rules committee may well make it a point of emphasis.

(I think of this a similar to what gets called in volleyball on one handed hits/carries - there it is still quite carefully enforced, though the two handed sets have become much more leniently enforced.)
 
stamfordhusky said:
Assume that a player palms the ball - but actually throws a pass in the same motion. Then there is no violation (assuming there is no travel). Likewise if the player palms but simply lets the ball go, then again no violation (as long as she doesn't touch the ball again).
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I was referring to the carry in the context of maintaining the dribble --- as in carrying and then doing another/more dribbles

"...which was that you could not put your hand under the equator of the ball, the idea being that it allowed you to do a much more aggressive crossover (for example) and still keep your dribble live/legal."
 
UcMiami said:
it really isn't giving the dribbler an unfair advantage, though I do think it is getting worse and if players don't control this tendency themselves the rules committee may well make it a point of emphasis.

(I think of this a similar to what gets called in volleyball on one handed hits/carries - there it is still quite carefully enforced, though the two handed sets have become much more leniently enforced.)
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1. If there really were no advantage, unfair or otherwise, to gained by the dribbler, one should wonder why the tendency over many years and many players has been a marked increase in what many see as a 'carry.'
2. I think that it has not only given the dribbler a significant advantage - I think that is has had a very large impact on how the men's game is played and how it has evolved, especially at the pro level where the athletes are the best. I also think it has had a much smaller - but still noticable - impace on the women's game.

Certainly , there are differing opions on all this :)
 
As a kid playing ball we were taught how to add English on the ball and let our hands rise with the ball on top as it spun against the hand.
 
There is an advantage to it. This will be difficult to explain, but easier to show.

If a player intends to execute a crossover dribble, dribbling with your hands on top and moving them into position for the crossover dribble ( to the side of the ball) will indicate what you are about to do to the defender. If you are constantly coming from near the bottom of the ball on your dribble, moving your hand into crossover position on the ball would look "normal" and give no indication to the defender what you are about to do.
 
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Adesmar123 said:
There is an advantage to it. This will be difficult to explain, but easier to show.

If a player intends to execute a crossover dribble, dribbling with your hands on top and moving them into position for the crossover dribble ( to the side of the ball) will indicate what you are about to do to the defender. If you are constantly coming from near the bottom of the ball on your dribble, moving your hand into crossover position on the ball would look "normal" and give no indication to the defender what you are about to do.
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VAMike23 said:
1. If there really were no advantage, unfair or otherwise, to gained by the dribbler, one should wonder why the tendency over many years and many players has been a marked increase in what many see as a 'carry.'
2. I think that it has not only given the dribbler a significant advantage - I think that is has had a very large impact on how the men's game is played and how it has evolved, especially at the pro level where the athletes are the best. I also think it has had a much smaller - but still noticable - impace on the women's game.

Certainly , there are differing opions on all this :)
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But the interesting part of this is that the most egregious palming happens when players are just walking the ball up court or dribbling in position - when they are actually attacking they don't have time to do it and generally are not touching the ball below the 'equator' on their dribbles. They aren't being pressured and they aren't trying to do anything fancy with the ball. The two times that they do get called are usually when they think they are going to make a one-handed pass, and then change their mind and continue the pretty well discontinued dribble in which case they have put their hand under the ball, or when they are trying to attack and have put their hand around the equator of the ball and moved it from one side of their body to the other before sending it back to the floor. In the second instance, depending on hand size they may not have actually 'palmed' the ball - a male or a player like Maya with large and strong hands can do the 'carry' with only touching the upper half of the ball because their fingers are long enough to carry the ball without palming.
 
UcMiami said:
But the interesting part of this is that the most egregious palming happens when players are just walking the ball up court or dribbling in position - when they are actually attacking they don't have time to do it and generally are not touching the ball below the 'equator' on their dribbles. They aren't being pressured and they aren't trying to do anything fancy with the ball.
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Apparently Jeff Walz disagrees with you. The instance I was mentioning, Mojeff was standing still for a while, not closely guarded and Walz was vigorously making the palming sign all the time she was standing still not closely guarded.
 
earl the pearl said:
I can only think of that old saying "beating a dead horse" when I read this thread......
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Sorry to bore you Mr Ed. But you can just ignore it if that is your desire. Why do you believe that you should make such a comment because it bores you?
 
Biff said:
He did it several times and I think that was part of the accumulated whining that probably set up his technical.
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I don't know how many people remember this, but back in the mid seventies, when Title IX was first past, and High School Girl's basketball was getting started, Coaches were not allowed to question ANY referee's call. Coaches had to remain silent. Any word for the Coach to the Ref resulted in an immediate technical foul. Do it again, and the Coach was removed from the game. I always considered it a bit harsh at the time. I don't know if the College Women's game had the same rule, or when or even if they have relaxed the rule at the High School level, but that's the way it was.
 
Walz made EVERY sign. His timing was unfortunate on the "T" because it was too close to the half to inspire the team. We may thank the (Michael) Jordan Rules for the officiating dilemma. At all levels of play, extreme palming is allowed. The cut-off point was Lebron's "crab dribble," to ridiculous to allow.
 
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