Did you see Walz make the "palming sign" ?

[VAMike23]

Assume that a player palms the ball - but actually throws a pass in the same motion. Then there is no violation (assuming there is no travel). Likewise if the player palms but simply lets the ball go, then again no violation (as long as she doesn't touch the ball again).

I was referring to the carry in the context of maintaining the dribble --- as in carrying and then doing another/more dribbles

"...which was that you could not put your hand under the equator of the ball, the idea being that it allowed you to do a much more aggressive crossover (for example) and still keep your dribble live/legal."

 

[VAMike23]

it really isn't giving the dribbler an unfair advantage, though I do think it is getting worse and if players don't control this tendency themselves the rules committee may well make it a point of emphasis.

(I think of this a similar to what gets called in volleyball on one handed hits/carries - there it is still quite carefully enforced, though the two handed sets have become much more leniently enforced.)

1. If there really were no advantage, unfair or otherwise, to gained by the dribbler, one should wonder why the tendency over many years and many players has been a marked increase in what many see as a 'carry.'
2. I think that it has not only given the dribbler a significant advantage - I think that is has had a very large impact on how the men's game is played and how it has evolved, especially at the pro level where the athletes are the best. I also think it has had a much smaller - but still noticable - impace on the women's game.

Certainly , there are differing opions on all this

 

[Icebear]

As a kid playing ball we were taught how to add English on the ball and let our hands rise with the ball on top as it spun against the hand.

 

[Adesmar123]

There is an advantage to it. This will be difficult to explain, but easier to show.

If a player intends to execute a crossover dribble, dribbling with your hands on top and moving them into position for the crossover dribble ( to the side of the ball) will indicate what you are about to do to the defender. If you are constantly coming from near the bottom of the ball on your dribble, moving your hand into crossover position on the ball would look "normal" and give no indication to the defender what you are about to do.

 

[UcMiami]

There is an advantage to it. This will be difficult to explain, but easier to show.

If a player intends to execute a crossover dribble, dribbling with your hands on top and moving them into position for the crossover dribble ( to the side of the ball) will indicate what you are about to do to the defender. If you are constantly coming from near the bottom of the ball on your dribble, moving your hand into crossover position on the ball would look "normal" and give no indication to the defender what you are about to do.

1. If there really were no advantage, unfair or otherwise, to gained by the dribbler, one should wonder why the tendency over many years and many players has been a marked increase in what many see as a 'carry.'
2. I think that it has not only given the dribbler a significant advantage - I think that is has had a very large impact on how the men's game is played and how it has evolved, especially at the pro level where the athletes are the best. I also think it has had a much smaller - but still noticable - impace on the women's game.

Certainly , there are differing opions on all this

But the interesting part of this is that the most egregious palming happens when players are just walking the ball up court or dribbling in position - when they are actually attacking they don't have time to do it and generally are not touching the ball below the 'equator' on their dribbles. They aren't being pressured and they aren't trying to do anything fancy with the ball. The two times that they do get called are usually when they think they are going to make a one-handed pass, and then change their mind and continue the pretty well discontinued dribble in which case they have put their hand under the ball, or when they are trying to attack and have put their hand around the equator of the ball and moved it from one side of their body to the other before sending it back to the floor. In the second instance, depending on hand size they may not have actually 'palmed' the ball - a male or a player like Maya with large and strong hands can do the 'carry' with only touching the upper half of the ball because their fingers are long enough to carry the ball without palming.

 

[Adesmar123]

But the interesting part of this is that the most egregious palming happens when players are just walking the ball up court or dribbling in position - when they are actually attacking they don't have time to do it and generally are not touching the ball below the 'equator' on their dribbles. They aren't being pressured and they aren't trying to do anything fancy with the ball.

Apparently Jeff Walz disagrees with you. The instance I was mentioning, Mojeff was standing still for a while, not closely guarded and Walz was vigorously making the palming sign all the time she was standing still not closely guarded.

 

[earl the pearl]

I can only think of that old saying "beating a dead horse" when I read this thread...........

 

[Adesmar123]

I can only think of that old saying "beating a dead horse" when I read this thread......

Sorry to bore you Mr Ed. But you can just ignore it if that is your desire. Why do you believe that you should make such a comment because it bores you?

 

[Aluminny69]

He did it several times and I think that was part of the accumulated whining that probably set up his technical.

I don't know how many people remember this, but back in the mid seventies, when Title IX was first past, and High School Girl's basketball was getting started, Coaches were not allowed to question ANY referee's call. Coaches had to remain silent. Any word for the Coach to the Ref resulted in an immediate technical foul. Do it again, and the Coach was removed from the game. I always considered it a bit harsh at the time. I don't know if the College Women's game had the same rule, or when or even if they have relaxed the rule at the High School level, but that's the way it was.

 

[Billybonggg]

Walz made EVERY sign. His timing was unfortunate on the "T" because it was too close to the half to inspire the team. We may thank the (Michael) Jordan Rules for the officiating dilemma. At all levels of play, extreme palming is allowed. The cut-off point was Lebron's "crab dribble," to ridiculous to allow.

 

[boontonbomber]

There are a lot of rules that are made up that don't really have any positive impact in the game, and palming is one of them, just as the for people who don't like the dunk, the rule that banned the dunk was cheered on by some fans back in the late 1960s.

There are other aspects of the game that I'm more concerned about, as when a player in today's game went up for a layup and a defender got some of the ball and then slammed her to the court. And of course it's totally legal, although what Slaughter was doing in behind the play with a right arm that seemed to be helping the throw-down is a different matter.

Some may want to make a big deal about palming, but I think attention might be better spent looking at the problems that really matter, and I have never seen a player injured by palming or a game adversely affected by it. But we can all pick our different issues to fight about. Palming would likely be #99 on my list of 100 battles to crusade against. Plus putting in that big effort in a likely futile attempt to undo 15 years worth of training for a hard-to-call movement that would gum up the game and make most fans irritated? Whatever.

agree. palming is impossible to call with any kind of consistency. and,also, i'm for anything that helps the offensive player .

 

[jennyo70]

As a Louisville fan I want any advantage I can get against Uconn, in the realm of rule calling. It is hard to watch it, know it is a rule violation, and it not be called. If you are not going to call it, eliminate from the rules. On our end, Bria Smith is guilty of it too.

Re: Walz and the T. I love the guy. He is a heck of an x's and o's coach, a real delight for the fans, and a great sense of humor. He will always go to bat for his players, and he does not cut them any slack when they screw up on the court. However, I would absolutely hate to ref one of his games. He is relentless on the refs. Truthfully, I am not surprised he does not get T'd up more often. He appears more twitchy this year, and I believe it is the inconsistiencies in game calling, from game to game. It is hard for teams to know what they can and can't do, when there is little consistency. Of course, it is his job to have his team adjust to how the game is being called.

Finally, I am sure Walz meant nothing other than to help Mo Jeff up off of the floor in front of our bench. However, I said noticed the exact same thing, that it looked like he was going to pull her arm out of socket. My partner said "she's not a rag doll, Jeff, come on". It certainly looked awkward.
She looks so tiny, I have visions of me trying to help her up, and in giving her a hand/pulling her up, she flies over my head 10 ft. away.

 

[Woof 101]

Not calling anyone out here, a lot of good comments. I will agree with those that think it is palming or a carry as I was taught ( I am old ) anything below 3 o'clock / 9 o'clock on the ball you got called. I like the comment on seeing how it is called ( like baseball ) unless it changes as the season goes into the tourney when someone has developed a season long habit.

I have a link here of what I think is a good demonstration of proper dribbling. Not sure how many here have had the pleasure of meeting our
DY-NA-MO-JEFF, and shake her hand but I have and I wonder if she could palm a softball. Many with small hands at any level use their wrist and lower arm to move the ball when crossing or changing directions.

 

[DaddyChoc]

As a kid playing ball we were taught how to add English on the ball and let our hands rise with the ball on top as it spun against the hand.

players are better these days, that ball would get stolen everytime

 

[DaddyChoc]

carrying in the 80's was a very high dribble, normally above the shoulder (palming wasnt involved).

I guess this could be called "double dribble" due to the ball resting in your palm... then dribbled again.

not sure about calling it "travel"... since you have to take about 3 steps with it in your hand.

I hate to say it but it gives teams like UConn who runs a motion offense the advantage due to the defender jumping in the passing lane and MoJett/BHart is "about to pass and just puts the ball back down on the floor"

it also makes you quicker as a dribbler/ball handler... cause you can "push the ball" and run to get back under it.

 

[UConnCat]

I can only think of that old saying "beating a dead horse" when I read this thread......

Just this thread?

 

[Dove]

When he lands a rocket pg who needs the ball to keep up with her speed he will learn that there is a technique to it. Otherwise, rocket pgs become obsolete.

 

[UcMiami]

As a Louisville fan I want any advantage I can get against Uconn, in the realm of rule calling. It is hard to watch it, know it is a rule violation, and it not be called. If you are not going to call it, eliminate from the rules. On our end, Bria Smith is guilty of it too.

Re: Walz and the T. I love the guy. He is a heck of an x's and o's coach, a real delight for the fans, and a great sense of humor. He will always go to bat for his players, and he does not cut them any slack when they screw up on the court. However, I would absolutely hate to ref one of his games. He is relentless on the refs. Truthfully, I am not surprised he does not get T'd up more often. He appears more twitchy this year, and I believe it is the inconsistiencies in game calling, from game to game. It is hard for teams to know what they can and can't do, when there is little consistency. Of course, it is his job to have his team adjust to how the game is being called.

Finally, I am sure Walz meant nothing other than to help Mo Jeff up off of the floor in front of our bench. However, I said noticed the exact same thing, that it looked like he was going to pull her arm out of socket. My partner said "she's not a rag doll, Jeff, come on". It certainly looked awkward.
She looks so tiny, I have visions of me trying to help her up, and in giving her a hand/pulling her up, she flies over my head 10 ft. away.

I really like Jeff too and it has to be frustrating for any coach to deal with officiating inconsistencies game to game, but that is always the case every year. The ones that really drive coaches crazy are the complete inconsistencies within a game and that is a bit rarer and much more likely to lead to serious foul trouble and coaching meltdowns. Sometimes you get refs that are not on the same page so the one down low calls different things than the ones up top, and then since I believe they play the same way in both halves the calls reverse for the teams in the second half. I actually enjoy Jeff's sideline demeanor - he is pretty clear about how he feels but seldom takes it to the Kim level of demonstrativeness! And I think most coaches ride the refs from start to finish so I don't see anything more than that.
Liked the interaction with Jefferson - can always be awkward getting a player up - but there was some general good will between the two. Just get the sense Jeff is a generally good guy who likes good ball players whatever jersey they wear.