Delany on East Coast pre-expansion push: espn

[Dooley]

For college basketball in NYC, it's UCONN and Syracuse. No other school comes close. Not St John's. Not Rutgers. Not Seton Hall. Duke I suppose would garner a small percentage of fans and there are a few B1G alumni in the city. But as far as the needle movers go, it's a two school race.

 

[Bonz_44]

Outside of hoop's Cuse is a rotting orange in a decaying DMA(88th) and losing more and more cache by the day....if they were offered the B1G(never happen) they'd have jumped.Head to head RU/Lv on the deuce in NYC demo and SU/WVU on the spin and Cuse was squashed locally...nationally im not sure but Cuse is history except in hoops while JB is there!!Afterward's??Who knows.

So the ratings for the same bowl in NYC mean nothing? While RU played Notre Dame and Cuse played WVU? You can spin it anyway you want but if Cuse played ND and RU had better ratings playing wvu i'm sure we'd here about it....
How can rutgers claim all of NJ but Cuse can't claim NY? Most of the bigger states have multiple bcs teams (CA has 4, Florida has 4, Texas) while NY only has 1? Brand also has something to do with all the CR and Cuse has a brand while I'm not sure RU does? Again, Uconn & Cuse have more pull in NYC than RU and also have the better brands nationally

 

[Sportsman5]

I'd say it's the exact opposite. the vast majority of schools with great reputations built those off grad programs. And there's a reason for that. It's because they typically attract the best faculty. I'm not even sure what you mean by "only influential grad programs" and how you came to that conclusion. But I can point out a lot of schools that are tilted heavily toward grad studies that have a huge reputation outside of academia. Look at US News' top 30. Half the schools emphasize grad programs. Carnegie-Mellon, UCLA, Chicago, half the Ivies, Michigan, UNC, Virginia, Cal, Johns Hopkins, MIT, etc.

Influential meaning these are large and influential grad programs that people are aware of. How much is Harvard's reputation influenced due to it being the number one phd program in organic chemistry? basically zero. How about undergraduate studies? business school? Ask any person what the number one school is in the country and they will say Harvard the majority of the time unless they have some sort of bias towards another top school. This reputation is built on things like their acceptance rate being extremely low and valedictorians with perfects SAT scores being regularly rejected. It could also be because they have an unbelievably powerful and influential group of business school graduates who dominate corporate roles such as CEO and give so much money to the school that the Harvard endowment crushes everyone else's. Do you think Michigan built it's reputation around the country with the average person through small graduate school programs? The amount of people who received a doctorate degree other than MD even a few decades ago was almost 0 as a percent of the population.

go up to 10 random people on the street today and ask them what the top 5 grad school programs are at any school you mentioned excluding the grad programs that I stated are influential. How many do you think those people will be able to get correct? If you asked someone in Texas why UConn is a good school and the first thing they mentioned was their graduate kinesiology department I would be SHOCKED beyond belief. Those things don't move the needle except for the absolutely most informed people.

There is no way that small graduate school programs that d0 research and offer Phds and masters have any influence on the average person's perception of a university. it may have a small effect for people in a close geographic proximity to the university. For example, people in Minnesota may think that their grad programs make their university prestigious, but ask anyone in Los Angeles or Boston what they think of the university of Minnesota and they will likely say they have no clue (not a good answer if Minnesota is supposedly a great school) or will say it's a decent large public university. No one outside of academia cares about research. And many in it know that a lot of it is Stop research tailored in a way to get a study published to bolster a professors resume and have something to show for the university paying him or her a lot of money. And if you have attended a large research minded public university you may have noticed a trend that many of the top research professors don't put as much time and energy into their actual teaching of students as they should.

While a few schools such as MIT may have partially built their reputation off of graduate studies in certain areas the vast majority of schools have not.

 

[upstater]

Influential meaning these are large and influential grad programs that people are aware of. How much is Harvard's reputation influenced due to it being the number one phd program in organic chemistry? basically zero. How about undergraduate studies? business school? Ask any person what the number one school is in the country and they will say Harvard the majority of the time unless they have some sort of bias towards another top school. This reputation is built on things like their acceptance rate being extremely low and valedictorians with perfects SAT scores being regularly rejected. It could also be because they have an unbelievably powerful and influential group of business school graduates who dominate corporate roles such as CEO and give so much money to the school that the Harvard endowment crushes everyone else's. Do you think Michigan built it's reputation around the country with the average person through small graduate school programs? The amount of people who received a doctorate degree other than MD even a few decades ago was almost 0 as a percent of the population.

go up to 10 random people on the street today and ask them what the top 5 grad school programs are at any school you mentioned excluding the grad programs that I stated are influential. How many do you think those people will be able to get correct? If you asked someone in Texas why UConn is a good school and the first thing they mentioned was their graduate kinesiology department I would be SHOCKED beyond belief. Those things don't move the needle except for the absolutely most informed people.

There is no way that small graduate school programs that d0 research and offer Phds and masters have any influence on the average person's perception of a university. it may have a small effect for people in a close geographic proximity to the university. For example, people in Minnesota may think that their grad programs make their university prestigious, but ask anyone in Los Angeles or Boston what they think of the university of Minnesota and they will likely say they have no clue (not a good answer if Minnesota is supposedly a great school) or will say it's a decent large public university. No one outside of academia cares about research. And many in it know that a lot of it is bull research tailored in a way to get a study published to bolster a professors resume and have something to show for the university paying him or her a lot of money. And if you have attended a large research minded public university you may have noticed a trend that many of the top research professors don't put as much time and energy into their actual teaching of students as they should.

While a few schools such as MIT may have partially built their reputation off of graduate studies in certain areas the vast majority of schools have not.

My point is that the school's reputations are already built off their grad programs, and not their undergrad programs, not that people know the individual strengths of their separate disciplines and departments. The same applies for business and law too. No one knows that Harvard excels in torts or that Harvard is really good with accounting. They might assume it but they don't know vis-a-vis say the Wharton School. You've compared entire schools like Law or Business to small programs. The comparisons should be Arts & Sciences v. Business or Law v. Engineering etc.

 

[Sportsman5]

My point is that the school's reputations are already built off their grad programs, and not their undergrad programs, not that people know the individual strengths of their separate disciplines and departments. The same applies for business and law too. No one knows that Harvard excels in torts or that Harvard is really good with accounting. They might assume it but they don't know vis-a-vis say the Wharton School. You've compared entire schools like Law or Business to small programs. The comparisons should be Arts & Sciences v. Business or Law v. Engineering etc.

my original post said a schools reputation is usually linked to a combination of undergrad, law school, medical school, and business school. Your reply to that was that "I'd say it's the exact opposite". And then started talking about grad school programs attracting top faculty. If you were talking about top business school faculty, than why did you say you would argue the exact opposite of me when I pointed out in the original post that business schools have an influence on reputation.

The average person doesn't factor in research when considering a schools reputation. On top of that even if you do care about research a lot of it is total crap that has an agenda due to where the funding came from or the individual professors need to get something published. Also, research intensive professors tend to neglect their actual teaching more than they should because they are very focused on their research (not all, but many). Therefore, programs that attract top research professors will not enhance the quality of a school unless a person wants to be accepted into a particular graduate program and work along side (aka work for) that professor.

 

[upstater]

my original post said a schools reputation is usually linked to a combination of undergrad, law school, medical school, and business school. Your reply to that was that "I'd say it's the exact opposite". And then started talking about grad school programs attracting top faculty. If you were talking about top business school faculty, than why did you say you would argue the exact opposite of me when I pointed out in the original post that business schools have an influence on reputation.

The average person doesn't factor in research when considering a schools reputation. On top of that even if you do care about research a lot of it is total crap that has an agenda due to where the funding came from or the individual professors need to get something published. Also, research intensive professors tend to neglect their actual teaching more than they should because they are very focused on their research (not all, but many). Therefore, programs that attract top research professors will not enhance the quality of a school unless a person wants to be accepted into a particular graduate program and work along side (aka work for) that professor.

I responded to the part of your post that said a school's reputation comes from its undergraduate programs. I think it's the exact opposite. A look at the USNWR shows that grad intensive institutions have the best reputations precisely because they attract the best faculty, which in turn burnishes their reputation, and that eventually lays itself out at the undergraduate level, and also outside academia when students look at USNWR as an arbiter of which schools to apply to.

I'm not sure why you keep emphasizing business schools. Most students coming in today are interested in engineering and medical sciences.

 

[Sportsman5]

I responded to the part of your post that said a school's reputation comes from its undergraduate programs. I think it's the exact opposite. A look at the USNWR shows that grad intensive institutions have the best reputations precisely because they attract the best faculty, which in turn burnishes their reputation, and that eventually lays itself out at the undergraduate level, and also outside academia when students look at USNWR as an arbiter of which schools to apply to.

I'm not sure why you keep emphasizing business schools. Most students coming in today are interested in engineering and medical sciences.

ok. I was originally confused because you responded to my post where I stated that certain large grad school programs are influential. I get your point now.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I truly believe the B1G gatekeepers have already decided to invite UConn, and likewise, the pathway to the B1G's expansion eastward has everything to do with what's going on at 101 Avenue of the Americas in Manhattan.

I don't think it's a fait accompli, I do think there are elements within both conferences that are our strong advocates. The 4th NC gave our allies increased voice. To seal a deal our football team has to be competent. How competent?
I have stated before the image of our football team is directly proportional to the image of our basketball team. In a world were everything is rationalized the more successful we are in basketball the easier it will be to overlook blemishes and magnify positives of our gridiron exploits. However, there has to be a modicum of accomplishment to magnify.

 

[upstater]

I don't think it's a fait accompli, I do think there are elements within both conferences that are our strong advocates. The 4th NC gave our allies increased voice. To seal a deal our football team has to be competent. How competent?
I have stated before the image of our football team is directly proportional to the image of our basketball team. In a world were everything is rationalized the more successful we are in basketball the easier it will be to overlook blemishes and magnify positives of our gridiron exploits. However, there has to be a modicum of accomplishment to magnify.

UConn has played Indiana (2-0), Rutgers (.500), Maryland (1-1) and Notre Dame (1-0). I bet they think of UConn as a team that will be like Rutgers and Indiana. A team in the bottom 3rd. Any improvement in UConn football will happen against the AAC teams, so they are never likely to think of UConn as anything but an Indiana-Rutgers.

If, by improvement, you mean "doesn't lose to the likes of Towson and Temple," then yes a lot is at stake on that. But this shouldn't be too hard for anyone not named Pasqualoni to achieve.

In other words, I think the possible help that UConn football might provide is rather limited.

A bigger factor may be fannies in the seats.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

IMO yes. I think he believed that by grabbing UMD he could destabilize The ACC enough to get the realignment wheel spinning full speed again. If suddenly Clemson, FSU, GT, and Miami were looking at the Big 12 and NCST and VPI were looking at the SEC, he might have been able to pluck UNC and UVA. It didn't work as the conference quickly back filled with Louisville and added a scheduling agreement with ND to further placate the football schools.

Ultimately I think there was interest on UVA's side but not so much UNC. Without an immediate school to pair with UVA. I think Delany got cold feet and things cooled down between both sides. In the end I think UNC's identity is too attached to being the face of the ACC to depart the conference w/o its complete collapse already having taken place. I think the ACC survives as long as ESPN wants it to.

What will be interesting to watch is if several years pass and B1G Schools are making 15mil+ more a year than their ACC Rivals, with The ACC Network still a potential idea not a functioning platform, I could see UVA making the move. I would be perfectly ok with The B1G going to 15 in 2017 with perhaps a look in built in for expansion in a few years.

Am I nuts, or is the above too Machiavellian for even the Machiavelli's ?

 

[huskymedic]

Sorry to be a but it's moot not mute. Pet peeve. You can call me bad names now.

 

[uconNYC]

I don't think it's a fait accompli, I do think there are elements within both conferences that are our strong advocates. The 4th NC gave our allies increased voice. To seal a deal our football team has to be competent. How competent?
I have stated before the image of our football team is directly proportional to the image of our basketball team. In a world were everything is rationalized the more successful we are in basketball the easier it will be to overlook blemishes and magnify positives of our gridiron exploits. However, there has to be a modicum of accomplishment to magnify.

Competent means reaching the AAC championship game every year. Anything less and we're not in the top 25.

 

[Seaa Blue]

Am I nuts, or is the above too Machiavellian for even the Machiavelli's ?

I believe Delany's directives from the people that must approve expansion were/are to craft expansion strategies that minimize the destabilization effect on other conferences. Which is another why UConn is on speed dial and not UVA or UNC.

 

[Stinger92860]

Constant name calling? What are you, 7 years old?

You keep citing we have a bigger "bump" in NYC. Far be it from me to defend Syracuse, but what are you basing that off of? The three hundredth time upstater will cite the one time UConn women took Syracuse off the air)

Both schools have pull in NYC. I'd say UConn has more but to act like it's not even a debate is foolish.

You are a tool, lol.

 

[NEforceUConn]

Sorry about my last few posts, my dissapointment with this uneven UConn situation grates at me. I don't know the answer, and I'm not a diehard believer that all will be well, just wait (I wish my mind could accept that). I am, how shall I say, pissed off. Pissed off that UConn has gotten the shaft.

I truly wish John Henry, or Bill Lipschultz would become a major conference commissioner with free reign. I guarantee you with their vision and refusal to lose they would transform major College fb and bb into one hell of a show. I don't know how big their conferences would be, but i guarantee you they would transform college athletics as we know it, and UConn would be a key add in their formula. What would result would be a decent number of high level teams playing an even based schedule that was miles above the other colleges. their "conference, be it 20, 30, or 40 teams (or tie in with similar size conferences), would redefine competition as we know it. Stupid CR alliances and moves, such as UL, WVU, Pitt, BCU, RU would be obsolite. They would structure leagues such that a wrong conference move would set that conference back by 5 years.

Only the strong survive.

For instance moves like Delaney taking Ru and UMD, without any UVA follow through would mean its ripe for B1G to lose PSU to the ACC. Stuff like that where dumb moves have consequences. BIG 12's sleeping on UL, Pitt, and Cincy should have meant OKlahoma, OK State bolt immediately to the PAC.

I thought Swafford a fool, however if he taps UConn and UCF, he actually is a trading genious, to the likes of Lipschultz. Uconn and UCF give the ACC the entire East Coast, banishing B1G to move only west. Taking UCF keeps Big 12 from any thought of entering into Florida. What may have benn folly with Cuse/Pitt/UL would end up being sheer genious with a UConn/UCF move. Then offer Texas a ND hybrid deal, and the lowly ACC becomes the 100% dominant college FB and BB conference, hands down.

 

[buddy]

I truly believe the B1G gatekeepers have already decided to invite UConn, and likewise, the pathway to the B1G's expansion eastward has everything to do with what's going on at 101 Avenue of the Americas in Manhattan.[/quote
New York's team will call it Sixth Avenue.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

You are a tool, lol.

Solid rebuttal. Is this where I'm supposed to cry about you calling me names now?

 

[NickyNewark]

So the ratings for the same bowl in NYC mean nothing? While RU played Notre Dame and Cuse played WVU? You can spin it anyway you want but if Cuse played ND and RU had better ratings playing wvu i'm sure we'd here about it....
How can rutgers claim all of NJ but Cuse can't claim NY? Most of the bigger states have multiple bcs teams (CA has 4, Florida has 4, Texas) while NY only has 1? Brand also has something to do with all the CR and Cuse has a brand while I'm not sure RU does? Again, Uconn & Cuse have more pull in NYC than RU and also have the better brands nationally

Why? Thats easy...RU is the state U of NJ and actually is IN or IS the NYC/NJ market team at least in FB w/o having to pay for advertising and UConn due to FF county is too? What private can claim their State? Why SU has trouble keeping anyone(local recruits) with decent offers in state!?! That says alot. Right now like upstater said too I don't see much cache with Cuse in the Albany/Troy/Schenectady area so how would they claim the whole state?UB even thinks they see opportunity in NYS as the NY team. Too be noticed SU has to travel to NJ to MetLife to seek exposure but few care or go. I'll concede after UConn SU has great hoops presence for now downstate!Also SU doesn't have the research capability for inclusion in the B1G...there not ND after all so that can;t be overlooked and btw the B1G's research firm might tend to disagree with your opinion about that great SU FB brand. Heck most will admit even the ACC knew FB wasn't why they took Cuse but relationships developed over time. It could be argued Cuse and Pitt KNEW RU was getting in the B1G and jumped to save face? JMO! CR is about relationships and huge market team's.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Let's make this simple
The B1G is not going after any non flag ship school
In the East there are only 3 remaining flagships playing FSB , UConn,UV,and UNC,

Any talk of further eastern expansion ,by the process of elimination would include these schools. If you believe the iron clad nature of the GOR ,who does that leave?
UConn

 

[Rappin'Rodney]

Let's make this simple
The B1G is not going after any non flag ship school
In the East there are only 3 remaining flagships playing FSB , UConn,UV,and UNC,

Any talk of further eastern expansion ,by the process of elimination would include these schools. If you believe the iron clad nature of the GOR ,who does that leave?
UConn

I think the most important distinction to make when considering which types of schools the B1G will consider for expansion, is simply whether or not the university is considered a "peer institution" by other B1G schools. Remember, Michigan St. and Northwestern are not flagships. Also, 71% of the 14 B1G schools are land-grant universities. Only Michigan, Indiana, Iowa and Northwestern are not land-grants. So, any potential candidate university's land-grant and flagship statuses will both be important factors in the B1G's decision-making process. In UConn's case, the university is both, so no worries. Unfortunately for UConn, Storrs-Mansfield is incontiguous from B1G territory. If only the B1G and UConn could bridge that 30-mile gap...

 

[The Funster]

You know what would be sweet? The B1G adds Buffalo and UConn and both SU and BC are crushed into complete and total irrelevance.

 

[Rappin'Rodney]

UConn's situation reminds me of the allied airborne troops who dropped into Arnhem, Netherlands during Operation Market Garden during WW2. UConn is stuck on an island in enemy territory (Connecticut). The B1G relief column is advancing from allied-controlled territory (Pennsylvania). Will the B1G's armored cavalry secure UConn's flank (New York) in time to save the day? We need to find reinforcements in New York. Does anyone know of a land-grant university in New York, who has about 50,000 affluent alums in NYC? Preferably a university whose endowment would make Jim Delany's toes curl with unbridled excitement? A university who could serve as an aspirational peer to even Michigan? Hmm...

 

[upstater]

I think the most important distinction to make when considering which types of schools the B1G will consider for expansion, is simply whether or not the university is considered a "peer institution" by other B1G schools. Remember, Michigan St. and Northwestern are not flagships. Also, 71% of the 14 B1G schools are land-grant universities. Only Michigan, Indiana, Iowa and Northwestern are not land-grants. So, any potential candidate university's land-grant and flagship statuses will both be important factors in the B1G's decision-making process. In UConn's case, the university is both, so no worries. Unfortunately for UConn, Storrs-Mansfield is incontiguous from B1G territory. If only the B1G and UConn could bridge that 30-mile gap...

As the crow flies, it's about 10 miles from Palisades, NJ to Greenwich, CT.

 

[Pat125]

Unfortunately for UConn, Storrs-Mansfield is incontiguous from B1G territory. If only the B1G and UConn could bridge that 30-mile gap...

Maybe they can bridge the gap by the Big Ten opening an office in a state that borders CT.

 

[tzznandrew]

I think the most important distinction to make when considering which types of schools the B1G will consider for expansion, is simply whether or not the university is considered a "peer institution" by other B1G schools. Remember, Michigan St. and Northwestern are not flagships. Also, 71% of the 14 B1G schools are land-grant universities. Only Michigan, Indiana, Iowa and Northwestern are not land-grants. So, any potential candidate university's land-grant and flagship statuses will both be important factors in the B1G's decision-making process. In UConn's case, the university is both, so no worries. Unfortunately for UConn, Storrs-Mansfield is incontiguous from B1G territory. If only the B1G and UConn could bridge that 30-mile gap...

Well...as many have pointed out, it depends on how literally you want to take the contiguous bit.

Fairfield County has lots of UConn fans--you know, because it is the state school. It is technically in the NYC DMA. As is Rutgers. So as long as you are not being obtuse about it, they both literally overlap there.