Decision on Tourney Eligibility within 10 days

[zls44]

I'm personally not to fond of the decision of the University to in large, cooperate with the NCAA through this process.

You would have rather they what?

 

[champs99and04]

Sue

 

[Hoophound]

Might they plan to sue after more quantifiable damages have occured? As of right now, they have a chance. Once the ruling is handed down they can start fighting.

 

[hoopsknowitall]

If there is a silver lining in this APR mess its the fact that Hathaway got canned as a result of it. It was a major screw up by UCONN that it got to the point where scholarships were taken away and now a potential postseason ban is looming.

Hate to admit it but the UCONN athletic department and the nonmonitoring of its student athletes grades gave the NCAA the rope its now using to hang them with.

 

[upstater]

If there is a silver lining in this APR mess its the fact that Hathaway got canned as a result of it. It was a major screw up by UCONN that it got to the point where scholarships were taken away and now a potential postseason ban is looming.

Hate to admit it but the UCONN athletic department and the nonmonitoring of its student athletes grades gave the NCAA the rope its now using to hang them with.

Non-monitoring? It has nothing to do with non-monitoring. It has everything to do with not rigging a bogus system from the get-go. UConn's problem was that it sent students to actual classes, classes that the students did not complete with full credit because they (like Gavin Edwards) moved on to pro contracts in the spring. At other schools, you have short intersession classes that bring players into compliance, and if they need to leave in the spring, the classes already contain an online component (this is what Brandon Knight was doing last spring). UConn, according to the waiver application, will make three intersession courses mandatory in the summer for all players, as well as one week intersession classes. You wonder why the APR is higher than ever before? Easy. They lowered the standards just like every other school.

There is no way for the AD to monitor student grades other than mid-semester and final reports in legitimate classes.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

Hate to admit it but the UCONN athletic department and the nonmonitoring of its student athletes grades gave the NCAA the rope its now using to hang them with.

Our poor APR scores in 2009 and 2010 had almost nothing to do with "non-monitoring of our student athletes' grades." The APR has far less to do with academics than most people think.

Half the battle is keeping kids at your school - and the vast majority of kids who don't stay at your school do so for reasons that have nothing to do with academics.

 

[aceboon]

Not sure why you keep propping Gavin up as an example when he didn't sign a contract to play in Korea until the summer was halfway done.

Non-monitoring? It has nothing to do with non-monitoring. It has everything to do with not rigging a bogus system from the get-go. UConn's problem was that it sent students to actual classes, classes that the students did not complete with full credit because they (like Gavin Edwards) moved on to pro contracts in the spring. At other schools, you have short intersession classes that bring players into compliance, and if they need to leave in the spring, the classes already contain an online component (this is what Brandon Knight was doing last spring). UConn, according to the waiver application, will make three intersession courses mandatory in the summer for all players, as well as one week intersession classes. You wonder why the APR is higher than ever before? Easy. They lowered the standards just like every other school.

There is no way for the AD to monitor student grades other than mid-semester and final reports in legitimate classes.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

Not sure why you keep propping Gavin up as an example when he didn't sign a contract to play in Korea until the summer was halfway done.

I don't think it was that he signed a pro contract. It was that he (and possibly others) chose to focus on the pre-draft camps/workouts that are held in April/May - when classes are still in session.

Yet another reason why men's basketball programs are not tailored to comply with what the APR measures. Nobody can tell me that, for borderline NBA prospects, the pre-draft workouts aren't more important than finishing up a few classes. All it takes is one GM to like what he sees and a kid can become an instant millionaire. A kid can finish up his degree requirements at any time, but he may only have one chance to impress an NBA GM.

 

[Palatine]

On difference this time around is the new AD is in place. This is his first test.

 

[freescooter]

Sue

UNLV tried that and failed. The court ruled that the NCAA is a voluntary association and if the university doesn't like what the NCAA is doing it is perfectly free to quit its membership and play by any rules it wants to play by. No different than if you are a member of a country club and you don't like their new rule that requires players to walk and hire a caddie. You have a choice of complying witht he rules or qutting and joining the course across the street which has rules more to you liking, or even giving up golf altogether and playing croquet.

 

[freescooter]

I don't think it was that he signed a pro contract. It was that he (and possibly others) chose to focus on the pre-draft camps/workouts that are held in April/May - when classes are still in session.

Yet another reason why men's basketball programs are not tailored to comply with what the APR measures. Nobody can tell me that, for borderline NBA prospects, the pre-draft workouts aren't more important than finishing up a few classes. All it takes is one GM to like what he sees and a kid can become an instant millionaire. A kid can finish up his degree requirements at any time, but he may only have one chance to impress an NBA GM.

And yet 300 plus schools managed to comply with the APR requirements. there are simply no good excuses for why UCONN did not. None. And if you look at the UCONN application it is pretty clear that they didn't make much effort, nor did they make much effort to even bring in student athletes who were prepared to do the work at this level.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

UNLV tried that and failed. The court ruled that the NCAA is a voluntary association and if the university doesn't like what the NCAA is doing it is perfectly free to quit its membership and play by any rules it wants to play by. No different than if you are a member of a country club and you don't like their new rule that requires players to walk and hire a caddie. You have a choice of complying witht he rules or qutting and joining the course across the street which has rules more to you liking, or even giving up golf altogether and playing croquet.

This is a terrible analogy. If you don't like a country club, you can just join another one. What feasible alternative would a school like Uconn have if it wanted to leave the NCAA?

 

[upstater]

And yet 300 plus schools managed to comply with the APR requirements. there are simply no good excuses for why UCONN did not. None. And if you look at the UCONN application it is pretty clear that they didn't make much effort, nor did they make much effort to even bring in student athletes who were prepared to do the work at this level.

You're stuck on this like Johnny-One-Note. So much so that you can't understand it when people simply say it has little to do with academics. We know UConn didn't comply with the bogus rules. That falls under "No S... Sherlock." That doesn't mean we can't correct it when people say stuff about why they didn't comply.

 

[freescooter]

You're stuck on this like Johnny-One-Note. So much so that you can't understand it when people simply say it has little to do with academics. We know UConn didn't comply with the bogus rules. That falls under "No S... Sherlock." That doesn't mean we can't correct it when people say stuff about why they didn't comply.

Upstater, it doesn't matter whether they are bogus or not bogus. You are hung up on that point but bogus, not bogus, semi-bogus, it is completely irrelevent to the point. I've said that a million times. Everyone knew we were in danger of falling out of compliance yet nobody did a damned thing about it! No different than any other rule schools have to comply with. Why only give 12 scholarships? it is a totally abitrary number that has nothing at all to do with the game of basketball. If UNC wants to give 15, why should it matter to anyone else? Well, the APR is no differnet. The member schools of the NCAA agreed that this would be the process and all members would comply with certain APR standards. It is no more bogus than the scholarship limit or for that matter the limit on the number of games a team plays or for that matter that you play the game with 5 guys at a time. Those are all arbitrary and none of them really has anyhting to do with the game of basketball. But everyone in the NCAA agrees to comply with them. UCONN failed to do what 300 plus others did. So my argument is that UCONN has nobody to blame but itself. Not the NCAA, not the "bogus" rule. UCONN ignored a rule in a very clear blatent way just as if it had tried to play 6 guys at a time, or tscheduled an extra 5 games...everyone saw it coming and they still ignored it. it is no different than if an NFL team ignores the salary cap. You can argue that the salary cap has absolutely nothing to do with the game of football. But it is a rule and every team agrees by virtue of being in the league to comply with it. Same thing with the NCAA and the APR. You agree to comply or face consequences. There is no excuse.

 

[Danzz]

You're stuck on this like Johnny-One-Note. So much so that you can't understand it when people simply say it has little to do with academics. We know UConn didn't comply with the bogus rules. That falls under "No S... Sherlock." That doesn't mean we can't correct it when people say stuff about why they didn't comply.

What are you trying to do , correct minor inaccuracies and aviod the bottom line? Freescooter is right on this one.

 

[freescooter]

This is a terrible analogy. If you don't like a country club, you can just join another one. What feasible alternative would a school like Uconn have if it wanted to leave the NCAA?

I agree that the alernatives aren't too good, but that isn't the point. I guess you have the NAIA, or if you can find some other like minded schools, you can start your own league, I suppose you can even try and get into a semi-pro league or field a team in the NBA D-league for that matter (which is really not that much different from what guys like Bilias are advocating, when you look at it honestly). There is no constitutional right to have a basketball team. Not a single European university has one. The NCAA is a private association. You can join and abide by its rules, but you don't have to join it.

 

[caw]

And yet 300 plus schools managed to comply with the APR requirements. there are simply no good excuses for why UCONN did not. None. And if you look at the UCONN application it is pretty clear that they didn't make much effort, nor did they make much effort to even bring in student athletes who were prepared to do the work at this level.

There is no good reason for why UConn did not get high enough APR scores, true. Nate Miles incident aside, the rest of the kids who hurt the score should have been kept track of better.

However, there are a number of schools besides UConn that would be in hot water if this rule was in effect this year (13 of 68 NCAAT teams). If 20% of the NCAA field would have been ineligible this year, how many of the teams that failed to make the tournament would have been ineligible if the rules were implemented this year on all teams with no waivers or pardons? I would bet at least 10% of the 300+ schools.

UConn isn't the only team with APR issues, it just happens to be the only school not granted immunity to the rule or a waiver for next year.

Further, APR is just a silly metric. It let's teams say a kid who has 24 credits after his freshman year is on par to a senior who has 96 credits (not to mention credits towards an actual major). Who is actually closer to graduating? Both players are 4 points.

Let's not even get into how many rising seniors could be transferring teams in the future to be eligible to the NCAAT and how that will change recruiting and potentially cause issues with recruiting kids already on scholarship (which does happen already with mid-majors and the 5th year/grad school rule).

 

[johnhuskies95]

Upstater, it doesn't matter whether they are bogus or not bogus. You are hung up on that point but bogus, not bogus, semi-bogus, it is completely irrelevent to the point. I've said that a million times. Everyone knew we were in danger of falling out of compliance yet nobody did a damned thing about it! No different than any other rule schools have to comply with. Why only give 12 scholarships? it is a totally abitrary number that has nothing at all to do with the game of basketball. If UNC wants to give 15, why should it matter to anyone else? Well, the APR is no differnet. The member schools of the NCAA agreed that this would be the process and all members would comply with certain APR standards. It is no more bogus than the scholarship limit or for that matter the limit on the number of games a team plays or for that matter that you play the game with 5 guys at a time. Those are all arbitrary and none of them really has anyhting to do with the game of basketball. But everyone in the NCAA agrees to comply with them. UCONN failed to do what 300 plus others did. So my argument is that UCONN has nobody to blame but itself. Not the NCAA, not the "bogus" rule. UCONN ignored a rule in a very clear blatent way just as if it had tried to play 6 guys at a time, or tscheduled an extra 5 games...everyone saw it coming and they still ignored it. it is no different than if an NFL team ignores the salary cap. You can argue that the salary cap has absolutely nothing to do with the game of football. But it is a rule and every team agrees by virtue of being in the league to comply with it. Same thing with the NCAA and the APR. You agree to comply or face consequences. There is no excuse.

Sorry, but Upstater knows a lot more about the inner workings of the APR than you do.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

The 2011 team lost one APR point due to Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's transfer. Did we turn a blind eye to Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's academic performance? Was he not provided the academic support that he needed? Did we drop the ball somehow?

The answer, of course, is no. We lost a point because Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred. Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred because Jim Calhoun didn't give him as many minutes as he thought he deserved. Anyone who actually understood the nuts and bolts of how the APR works would find it 100% impossible to defend its methodology.

And as others have pointed out, we are not the only program facing APR trouble. In fact, we don't even know who else is banned from the 2013 tournament because the 2011 scores haven't even been released yet. So the idea that "everyone else found a way to comply" isn't even true.

 

[caw]

Non-monitoring? It has nothing to do with non-monitoring. It has everything to do with not rigging a bogus system from the get-go. UConn's problem was that it sent students to actual classes, classes that the students did not complete with full credit because they (like Gavin Edwards) moved on to pro contracts in the spring. At other schools, you have short intersession classes that bring players into compliance, and if they need to leave in the spring, the classes already contain an online component (this is what Brandon Knight was doing last spring). UConn, according to the waiver application, will make three intersession courses mandatory in the summer for all players, as well as one week intersession classes. You wonder why the APR is higher than ever before? Easy. They lowered the standards just like every other school.

There is no way for the AD to monitor student grades other than mid-semester and final reports in legitimate classes.

I look at it this way. Dyson was trying out of teams/trying to be a pro (and doing pretty darn well for himself in the D-League) and still managed to graduate/not hurt the APR. Edwards and everyone else should have been able to do the same. UConn should have had people in charge of making sure these kids did finish their classes.

 

[caw]

The 2011 team lost one APR point due to Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's transfer. Did we turn a blind eye to Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's academic performance? Was he not provided the academic support that he needed? Did we drop the ball somehow?

The answer, of course, is no. We lost a point because Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred. Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred because Jim Calhoun didn't give him as many minutes as he thought he deserved. Anyone who actually understood the nuts and bolts of how the APR works would find it 100% impossible to defend its methodology.

And as others have pointed out, we are not the only program facing APR trouble. In fact, we don't even know who else is banned from the 2013 tournament because the 2011 scores haven't even been released yet. So the idea that "everyone else found a way to comply" isn't even true.

That isn't quite true, from what I am pulling from my partially drunk mind. I believe the point was lost because Jamal Coombs-McDaniel had a GPA below the minimum needed in order for UConn to apply for the transfer waiver (to get that point back). If UConn had helped him get a higher GPA (study halls, course selection, etc.) then even his transfer would not have been a negative. Of course if he had stayed at UConn he would have been eligible and a full 4 points because his GPA was high enough for non-transfers.

You are correct about not officially knowing who else may be banned, I think UConn is the only known school because previous scores were so low that even a perfect score would be too low.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

I look at it this way. Dyson was trying out of teams/trying to be a pro (and doing pretty darn well for himself in the D-League) and still managed to graduate/not hurt the APR. Edwards and everyone else should have been able to do the same. UConn should have had people in charge of making sure these kids did finish their classes.

When a player's eligibility is exhausted, what can you hold them to? You can't suspend them, there aren't any games left. If a kid in that situation wants to focus all of their effort on their draft prospects, there is nothing that the school can do other than ask him nicely.

 

[CL82]

UNLV tried that and failed. The court ruled that the NCAA is a voluntary association and if the university doesn't like what the NCAA is doing it is perfectly free to quit its membership and play by any rules it wants to play by. No different than if you are a member of a country club and you don't like their new rule that requires players to walk and hire a caddie. You have a choice of complying witht he rules or qutting and joining the course across the street which has rules more to you liking, or even giving up golf altogether and playing croquet.

I think that the fact that the new rules used old time periods that made compliance by UConn a mathmatical impossibility and a change in sanction to March madness eligibility makes this a very different circumstance.

 

[upstater]

Upstater, it doesn't matter whether they are bogus or not bogus. You are hung up on that point but bogus, not bogus, semi-bogus, it is completely irrelevent to the point. I've said that a million times. Everyone knew we were in danger of falling out of compliance yet nobody did a damned thing about it! No different than any other rule schools have to comply with. Why only give 12 scholarships? it is a totally abitrary number that has nothing at all to do with the game of basketball. If UNC wants to give 15, why should it matter to anyone else? Well, the APR is no differnet. The member schools of the NCAA agreed that this would be the process and all members would comply with certain APR standards. It is no more bogus than the scholarship limit or for that matter the limit on the number of games a team plays or for that matter that you play the game with 5 guys at a time. Those are all arbitrary and none of them really has anyhting to do with the game of basketball. But everyone in the NCAA agrees to comply with them. UCONN failed to do what 300 plus others did. So my argument is that UCONN has nobody to blame but itself. Not the NCAA, not the "bogus" rule. UCONN ignored a rule in a very clear blatent way just as if it had tried to play 6 guys at a time, or tscheduled an extra 5 games...everyone saw it coming and they still ignored it. it is no different than if an NFL team ignores the salary cap. You can argue that the salary cap has absolutely nothing to do with the game of football. But it is a rule and every team agrees by virtue of being in the league to comply with it. Same thing with the NCAA and the APR. You agree to comply or face consequences. There is no excuse.

Of course it matters. It matters a lot. I can't believe you can't see why it matters. UConn didn't make a farce out of academics quick enough. That's precisely why it matters.

 

[upstater]

What are you trying to do , correct minor inaccuracies and aviod the bottom line? Freescooter is right on this one.

I don't even know what this means.

 

[freescooter]

When a player's eligibility is exhausted, what can you hold them to? You can't suspend them, there aren't any games left. If a kid in that situation wants to focus all of their effort on their draft prospects, there is nothing that the school can do other than ask him nicely.

If it is so impossible, then how come UCONN is the only major program in this situation? It is not impossible. The record indicates that it is quite the opposite. Trying to blame the NCAA or the APR is just letting UCONN off the hook, and the evidence suggests that they don't deserve to be let off the hook. Now the argument that they ought to allow the current year's data, is I think legitimate, but the rest of it is nothing more than trying to find someone else to blame for a problem that UCONN created for itself. Just like someone has to keep track of the cap room for an NFL team, someone has to keep track of APR for a college basketball team. 300 plus schools did it including some programs tha twould accept parking meters if they could hit a jumpshot. One major program did such a bad job that it is almost impossible to dig itself out even if it gets perfect scores. How you can act as if it is the NCAA's fault is simply beyond my ability to comprehend.

 

[upstater]

I look at it this way. Dyson was trying out of teams/trying to be a pro (and doing pretty darn well for himself in the D-League) and still managed to graduate/not hurt the APR. Edwards and everyone else should have been able to do the same. UConn should have had people in charge of making sure these kids did finish their classes.

But so what? I mean, the guy went to college for 3 1.2 years, and then flubbed it. At that point, it's on him. But still, that makes him more of a student than Brandon Knight. That's my point.

People in charge of making sure students finish classes? Wha? How can you force a grown man to sit in class?

The way to make sure they finish classes is to make up bogus 1 week classes and force players to take those long before the NCAA tournament. An intersession course right before the Spring semester may qualify you for the spring. But that's a total perversion of education.

 

[Gurleyman]

UCONN ignored a rule in a very clear blatent way just as if it had tried to play 6 guys at a time.

While I agree that UConn has significant blame in all this and your central premise has merit, that's a mind-numbingly absurd analogy. My brain hurts from reading it. Please try harder.

 

[upstater]

If it is so impossible, then how come UCONN is the only major program in this situation? It is not impossible. The record indicates that it is quite the opposite. Trying to blame the NCAA or the APR is just letting UCONN off the hook, and the evidence suggests that they don't deserve to be let off the hook. Now the argument that they ought to allow the current year's data, is I think legitimate, but the rest of it is nothing more than trying to find someone else to blame for a problem that UCONN created for itself. Just like someone has to keep track of the cap room for an NFL team, someone has to keep track of APR for a college basketball team. 300 plus schools did it including some programs tha twould accept parking meters if they could hit a jumpshot. One major program did such a bad job that it is almost impossible to dig itself out even if it gets perfect scores. How you can act as if it is the NCAA's fault is simply beyond my ability to comprehend.

Someone already pointed out that there were three other schools that didn't make the grade but you continue to ignore it. Regardless, that has nothing to do with the fact that the whole measurement is totally bogus and anti-educational. You're essentially criticizing UConn for not perverting learning quick enough. That's farcical.

 

[caw]

When a player's eligibility is exhausted, what can you hold them to? You can't suspend them, there aren't any games left. If a kid in that situation wants to focus all of their effort on their draft prospects, there is nothing that the school can do other than ask him nicely.

Don't have to ask nicely. Repeated phone calls, calls to the parents, etc.