Decision on Tourney Eligibility within 10 days

[Dann]

What I want an explanation on is Arkansas. Their APR (per what was published about ten months ago) was worse than ours yet we lost two scholarships while they were not punished. The reason the NCAA gave was that they felt Arkansas' progress was sufficient to warrant consideration (while we happened to have made better progress over the period in question than they did).

It is the discretionary enforcement of the rules that makes this completely ridiculous.

Glad others are still mad about this like me. There are several different things going on here that fans are all lumping into 1 and it’s confusing the heck out of everyone.

1) Nate Miles/text messages/cell phone issue were 1 ship docked from the ncaa for 3 years. 2012-13 will be the 3rd year of that punishment. That is not going to change. that’s part of the reason that 13-14 class is going to be a monster for us going along with all other issues.

2) The apr issues docked us 2 ships for 11-12 and its unclear what next year’s docked ships will be. It was supposed to be ruled on based off improvement; if no improvement was made then it was 2 more ships the next year. UConn’s improvement should argue that they get either ships back or at least 1 considering other ncaa rulings.

3) Drummond was brought in not on ship, if he stays (big if) they can put him on ship I believe but it has to be approved by the ncaa because of the whole fiasco we went thru with that in the fall(in state kid, was recruited etc…).

4) Now the ncaa wants us out of the 12-13 ncaat. We have appealed 1 or 2 times and are waiting for a yes or no on that. The ncaa has yet to officially make this a rule, they could still just wake up one day (in July it sounds like now) and say, ahh we change the date to theses years blah blah. In which case UConn would be safe because the past year or 2 our scores are great apr wise.

The reason this is all up for debate with UConn is because 2 years ago they punished us for bad apr. Doesn’t matter what u think of the apr system and how dumb it may be but we have to deal with it and we are doing a great job now as result. The fact that the ncaa would then 2 years later try to add to the punishment is the part that is brutal. Its insult to injury and its basically punishing us again for something that was already ruled/agreed on. That’s why ppl want to go to court or w/e and are pissed off about this situation. Our first punishment is now almost done so it was grandfathered in thru the old ncaa way of punishing for the apr. They are changing the punishment for apr by giving ncaat bans now. That’s fine, let them do what they want. But UConn got the old punishment at the time and can't be re punished. We were grandfathered into the old system when we accepted the docking of ships, you can't re up the punishment now, it’s one or the either and we already served one. that’s the argument going on now.

The other thing is how can you use such old numbers considering the players length of stays at schools, it should be the most recent #'s possible each year to help benefit or hurt the players. it gives the players currently there the responsibility for themselves and not letting their dreams ride on past players. But that’s a whole different argument on a system flaw.

We can't be punished twice is what we are standing ground on. Now our appeal looked ugly from what I read. The fact that we offered all that community service crap and recruiting restrictions doesn't make me feel to confident but I think that was our way of saying we'll give you a little goodwill throwing wise so it looks okay when you let us off the hook for your stupid rules.

5) We really need the ncaa to rule on #2 asap so that we know how many ships we have for next year. This is what’s being lost in all this crazy talk. Then get us the answer to #4.

did i get it all right???

 

[champs99and04]

Glad others are still mad about this like me. There are several different things going on here that fans are all lumping into 1 and it’s confusing the heck out of everyone.

1) Nate Miles/text messages/cell phone issue were 1 ship docked from the ncaa for 3 years. 2012-13 will be the 3rd year of that punishment. That is not going to change. that’s part of the reason that 13-14 class is going to be a monster for us going along with all other issues.

2) The apr issues docked us 2 ships for 11-12 and its unclear what next year’s docked ships will be. It was supposed to be ruled on based off improvement; if no improvement was made then it was 2 more ships the next year. UConn’s improvement should argue that they get either ships back or at least 1 considering other ncaa rulings.

3) Drummond was brought in not on ship, if he stays (big if) they can put him on ship I believe but it has to be approved by the ncaa because of the whole fiasco we went thru with that in the fall(in state kid, was recruited etc…).

4) Now the ncaa wants us out of the 12-13 ncaat. We have appealed 1 or 2 times and are waiting for a yes or no on that. The ncaa has yet to officially make this a rule, they could still just wake up one day (in July it sounds like now) and say, ahh we change the date to theses years blah blah. In which case UConn would be safe because the past year or 2 our scores are great apr wise.

The reason this is all up for debate with UConn is because 2 years ago they punished us for bad apr. Doesn’t matter what u think of the apr system and how dumb it may be but we have to deal with it and we are doing a great job now as result. The fact that the ncaa would then 2 years later try to add to the punishment is the part that is brutal. Its insult to injury and its basically punishing us again for something that was already ruled/agreed on. That’s why ppl want to go to court or w/e and are pissed off about this situation. Our first punishment is now almost done so it was grandfathered in thru the old ncaa way of punishing for the apr. They are changing the punishment for apr by giving ncaat bans now. That’s fine, let them do what they want. But UConn got the old punishment at the time and can't be re punished. We were grandfathered into the old system when we accepted the docking of ships, you can't re up the punishment now, it’s one or the either and we already served one. that’s the argument going on now.

The other thing is how can you use such old numbers considering the players length of stays at schools, it should be the most recent #'s possible each year to help benefit or hurt the players. it gives the players currently there the responsibility for themselves and not letting their dreams ride on past players. But that’s a whole different argument on a system flaw.

We can't be punished twice is what we are standing ground on. Now our appeal looked ugly from what I read. The fact that we offered all that community service crap and recruiting restrictions doesn't make me feel to confident but I think that was our way of saying we'll give you a little goodwill throwing wise so it looks okay when you let us off the hook for your stupid rules.

5) We really need the ncaa to rule on #2 asap so that we know how many ships we have for next year. This is what’s being lost in all this crazy talk. Then get us the answer to #4.

did i get it all right???

Nailed it for the most part. I made a post on a different message board the other day that was similar to this one. These are the most frustrating situations, not just in sports, but in life. It's when you know you're getting *ked over but nobody else really understands. I'm personally not to fond of the decision of the University to in large, cooperate with the NCAA through this process. I think it was a decision largely driven from a public perception standpoint, trying to make it clear that UConn's basketball program values academics. There are several dimensions to this bull , that's the thing. You first have to consider the deeply flawed structure in the manner that the APR is calculated. Kids transferring should not be held to a higher academic standard than kids leaving for the NBA. To think otherwise is just absurd and illogical.

As you pointed out, the most agitating part is that this is the second time UConn has been punished for the same infraction. Last year they were docked two scholarships and the NCAA has given no indication of returning them this season. And if you ban UConn from the tournament even after the fact that they have shown improvement (Just like other schools who have been granted waivers) it defeats the whole purpose of the Academic PROGRESS Report.

The worst thing about it is that they are being punished retroactively. I know I've said it many times, but don't you think UConn's athletic department and the coaching staff would have taken the APR a bit more seriously if they had known a low score would lead to such harsh punishments?

None of the three points mentioned above leave the NCAA on very sturdy legal bounds, which is why UConn should take them to court.

 

[huskyharry]

Not really worth losing sleep over this issue at this time. Bad things that are probable:
AD and JL going pro
AO transferring
Post-season ban for APR in '12-'13 season
No more than 10 or 11 scholarships

Good things that are probable:
JC returning as HC
UConn will have one of the best backcourts in the Big East (RB, SN, OC and don't forget Ben Allen, who I predict will show up stronger and expand on his defensive skills to be a contributor along the lines of Craig Austrie and Donnell Beverly)
UConn has several other experienced players coming back who have very good upside (RS...proven lock-down defender whose offensive game showed a substantial improvement over the last 5-6 games and could develop into a star,
TO...who was playing very well until he was slowed by a heel injury that made his inherent weaknesses (lack of athleticism and foot speed) fall below the level of acceptable level of play with a tough playing environment like the Big East...remember he was averaging 10 ppg and 7 rpg at one point,
NG...best natural shooter, good instinct for the game and very solid perimeter defense, DD...someone recently made the comparison to Kris Joseph and hopefully it will be a valid one...5-10 lbs. of muscle and an offseason of working on his jumper)
Two players coming back with good size and the potential to become solid big men (Wolf and MB...perhaps center by committee. Along with TO they will have 15 fouls)
It is not hard to imagine the 12-13 team having similar success to this year's team.
The best news is that 13 months from now, the NCAA witch hunt should be over.

 

[mauconnfan]

It is what it is!!!

The fact they said we just "need t o get a conference all together.." doesn't sound good. Sounds like their minds would be made up according to Fn Emmerett!!

 

[champs99and04]

Mark Emmert is a bag

 

[zls44]

I'm personally not to fond of the decision of the University to in large, cooperate with the NCAA through this process.

You would have rather they what?

 

[champs99and04]

Sue

 

[Hoophound]

Might they plan to sue after more quantifiable damages have occured? As of right now, they have a chance. Once the ruling is handed down they can start fighting.

 

[hoopsknowitall]

If there is a silver lining in this APR mess its the fact that Hathaway got canned as a result of it. It was a major screw up by UCONN that it got to the point where scholarships were taken away and now a potential postseason ban is looming.

Hate to admit it but the UCONN athletic department and the nonmonitoring of its student athletes grades gave the NCAA the rope its now using to hang them with.

 

[upstater]

If there is a silver lining in this APR mess its the fact that Hathaway got canned as a result of it. It was a major screw up by UCONN that it got to the point where scholarships were taken away and now a potential postseason ban is looming.

Hate to admit it but the UCONN athletic department and the nonmonitoring of its student athletes grades gave the NCAA the rope its now using to hang them with.

Non-monitoring? It has nothing to do with non-monitoring. It has everything to do with not rigging a bogus system from the get-go. UConn's problem was that it sent students to actual classes, classes that the students did not complete with full credit because they (like Gavin Edwards) moved on to pro contracts in the spring. At other schools, you have short intersession classes that bring players into compliance, and if they need to leave in the spring, the classes already contain an online component (this is what Brandon Knight was doing last spring). UConn, according to the waiver application, will make three intersession courses mandatory in the summer for all players, as well as one week intersession classes. You wonder why the APR is higher than ever before? Easy. They lowered the standards just like every other school.

There is no way for the AD to monitor student grades other than mid-semester and final reports in legitimate classes.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

Hate to admit it but the UCONN athletic department and the nonmonitoring of its student athletes grades gave the NCAA the rope its now using to hang them with.

Our poor APR scores in 2009 and 2010 had almost nothing to do with "non-monitoring of our student athletes' grades." The APR has far less to do with academics than most people think.

Half the battle is keeping kids at your school - and the vast majority of kids who don't stay at your school do so for reasons that have nothing to do with academics.

 

[aceboon]

Not sure why you keep propping Gavin up as an example when he didn't sign a contract to play in Korea until the summer was halfway done.

Non-monitoring? It has nothing to do with non-monitoring. It has everything to do with not rigging a bogus system from the get-go. UConn's problem was that it sent students to actual classes, classes that the students did not complete with full credit because they (like Gavin Edwards) moved on to pro contracts in the spring. At other schools, you have short intersession classes that bring players into compliance, and if they need to leave in the spring, the classes already contain an online component (this is what Brandon Knight was doing last spring). UConn, according to the waiver application, will make three intersession courses mandatory in the summer for all players, as well as one week intersession classes. You wonder why the APR is higher than ever before? Easy. They lowered the standards just like every other school.

There is no way for the AD to monitor student grades other than mid-semester and final reports in legitimate classes.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

Not sure why you keep propping Gavin up as an example when he didn't sign a contract to play in Korea until the summer was halfway done.

I don't think it was that he signed a pro contract. It was that he (and possibly others) chose to focus on the pre-draft camps/workouts that are held in April/May - when classes are still in session.

Yet another reason why men's basketball programs are not tailored to comply with what the APR measures. Nobody can tell me that, for borderline NBA prospects, the pre-draft workouts aren't more important than finishing up a few classes. All it takes is one GM to like what he sees and a kid can become an instant millionaire. A kid can finish up his degree requirements at any time, but he may only have one chance to impress an NBA GM.

 

[Palatine]

On difference this time around is the new AD is in place. This is his first test.

 

[freescooter]

Sue

UNLV tried that and failed. The court ruled that the NCAA is a voluntary association and if the university doesn't like what the NCAA is doing it is perfectly free to quit its membership and play by any rules it wants to play by. No different than if you are a member of a country club and you don't like their new rule that requires players to walk and hire a caddie. You have a choice of complying witht he rules or qutting and joining the course across the street which has rules more to you liking, or even giving up golf altogether and playing croquet.

 

[freescooter]

I don't think it was that he signed a pro contract. It was that he (and possibly others) chose to focus on the pre-draft camps/workouts that are held in April/May - when classes are still in session.

Yet another reason why men's basketball programs are not tailored to comply with what the APR measures. Nobody can tell me that, for borderline NBA prospects, the pre-draft workouts aren't more important than finishing up a few classes. All it takes is one GM to like what he sees and a kid can become an instant millionaire. A kid can finish up his degree requirements at any time, but he may only have one chance to impress an NBA GM.

And yet 300 plus schools managed to comply with the APR requirements. there are simply no good excuses for why UCONN did not. None. And if you look at the UCONN application it is pretty clear that they didn't make much effort, nor did they make much effort to even bring in student athletes who were prepared to do the work at this level.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

UNLV tried that and failed. The court ruled that the NCAA is a voluntary association and if the university doesn't like what the NCAA is doing it is perfectly free to quit its membership and play by any rules it wants to play by. No different than if you are a member of a country club and you don't like their new rule that requires players to walk and hire a caddie. You have a choice of complying witht he rules or qutting and joining the course across the street which has rules more to you liking, or even giving up golf altogether and playing croquet.

This is a terrible analogy. If you don't like a country club, you can just join another one. What feasible alternative would a school like Uconn have if it wanted to leave the NCAA?

 

[upstater]

And yet 300 plus schools managed to comply with the APR requirements. there are simply no good excuses for why UCONN did not. None. And if you look at the UCONN application it is pretty clear that they didn't make much effort, nor did they make much effort to even bring in student athletes who were prepared to do the work at this level.

You're stuck on this like Johnny-One-Note. So much so that you can't understand it when people simply say it has little to do with academics. We know UConn didn't comply with the bogus rules. That falls under "No S... Sherlock." That doesn't mean we can't correct it when people say stuff about why they didn't comply.

 

[freescooter]

You're stuck on this like Johnny-One-Note. So much so that you can't understand it when people simply say it has little to do with academics. We know UConn didn't comply with the bogus rules. That falls under "No S... Sherlock." That doesn't mean we can't correct it when people say stuff about why they didn't comply.

Upstater, it doesn't matter whether they are bogus or not bogus. You are hung up on that point but bogus, not bogus, semi-bogus, it is completely irrelevent to the point. I've said that a million times. Everyone knew we were in danger of falling out of compliance yet nobody did a damned thing about it! No different than any other rule schools have to comply with. Why only give 12 scholarships? it is a totally abitrary number that has nothing at all to do with the game of basketball. If UNC wants to give 15, why should it matter to anyone else? Well, the APR is no differnet. The member schools of the NCAA agreed that this would be the process and all members would comply with certain APR standards. It is no more bogus than the scholarship limit or for that matter the limit on the number of games a team plays or for that matter that you play the game with 5 guys at a time. Those are all arbitrary and none of them really has anyhting to do with the game of basketball. But everyone in the NCAA agrees to comply with them. UCONN failed to do what 300 plus others did. So my argument is that UCONN has nobody to blame but itself. Not the NCAA, not the "bogus" rule. UCONN ignored a rule in a very clear blatent way just as if it had tried to play 6 guys at a time, or tscheduled an extra 5 games...everyone saw it coming and they still ignored it. it is no different than if an NFL team ignores the salary cap. You can argue that the salary cap has absolutely nothing to do with the game of football. But it is a rule and every team agrees by virtue of being in the league to comply with it. Same thing with the NCAA and the APR. You agree to comply or face consequences. There is no excuse.

 

[Danzz]

You're stuck on this like Johnny-One-Note. So much so that you can't understand it when people simply say it has little to do with academics. We know UConn didn't comply with the bogus rules. That falls under "No S... Sherlock." That doesn't mean we can't correct it when people say stuff about why they didn't comply.

What are you trying to do , correct minor inaccuracies and aviod the bottom line? Freescooter is right on this one.

 

[freescooter]

This is a terrible analogy. If you don't like a country club, you can just join another one. What feasible alternative would a school like Uconn have if it wanted to leave the NCAA?

I agree that the alernatives aren't too good, but that isn't the point. I guess you have the NAIA, or if you can find some other like minded schools, you can start your own league, I suppose you can even try and get into a semi-pro league or field a team in the NBA D-league for that matter (which is really not that much different from what guys like Bilias are advocating, when you look at it honestly). There is no constitutional right to have a basketball team. Not a single European university has one. The NCAA is a private association. You can join and abide by its rules, but you don't have to join it.

 

[caw]

And yet 300 plus schools managed to comply with the APR requirements. there are simply no good excuses for why UCONN did not. None. And if you look at the UCONN application it is pretty clear that they didn't make much effort, nor did they make much effort to even bring in student athletes who were prepared to do the work at this level.

There is no good reason for why UConn did not get high enough APR scores, true. Nate Miles incident aside, the rest of the kids who hurt the score should have been kept track of better.

However, there are a number of schools besides UConn that would be in hot water if this rule was in effect this year (13 of 68 NCAAT teams). If 20% of the NCAA field would have been ineligible this year, how many of the teams that failed to make the tournament would have been ineligible if the rules were implemented this year on all teams with no waivers or pardons? I would bet at least 10% of the 300+ schools.

UConn isn't the only team with APR issues, it just happens to be the only school not granted immunity to the rule or a waiver for next year.

Further, APR is just a silly metric. It let's teams say a kid who has 24 credits after his freshman year is on par to a senior who has 96 credits (not to mention credits towards an actual major). Who is actually closer to graduating? Both players are 4 points.

Let's not even get into how many rising seniors could be transferring teams in the future to be eligible to the NCAAT and how that will change recruiting and potentially cause issues with recruiting kids already on scholarship (which does happen already with mid-majors and the 5th year/grad school rule).

 

[johnhuskies95]

Upstater, it doesn't matter whether they are bogus or not bogus. You are hung up on that point but bogus, not bogus, semi-bogus, it is completely irrelevent to the point. I've said that a million times. Everyone knew we were in danger of falling out of compliance yet nobody did a damned thing about it! No different than any other rule schools have to comply with. Why only give 12 scholarships? it is a totally abitrary number that has nothing at all to do with the game of basketball. If UNC wants to give 15, why should it matter to anyone else? Well, the APR is no differnet. The member schools of the NCAA agreed that this would be the process and all members would comply with certain APR standards. It is no more bogus than the scholarship limit or for that matter the limit on the number of games a team plays or for that matter that you play the game with 5 guys at a time. Those are all arbitrary and none of them really has anyhting to do with the game of basketball. But everyone in the NCAA agrees to comply with them. UCONN failed to do what 300 plus others did. So my argument is that UCONN has nobody to blame but itself. Not the NCAA, not the "bogus" rule. UCONN ignored a rule in a very clear blatent way just as if it had tried to play 6 guys at a time, or tscheduled an extra 5 games...everyone saw it coming and they still ignored it. it is no different than if an NFL team ignores the salary cap. You can argue that the salary cap has absolutely nothing to do with the game of football. But it is a rule and every team agrees by virtue of being in the league to comply with it. Same thing with the NCAA and the APR. You agree to comply or face consequences. There is no excuse.

Sorry, but Upstater knows a lot more about the inner workings of the APR than you do.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

The 2011 team lost one APR point due to Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's transfer. Did we turn a blind eye to Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's academic performance? Was he not provided the academic support that he needed? Did we drop the ball somehow?

The answer, of course, is no. We lost a point because Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred. Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred because Jim Calhoun didn't give him as many minutes as he thought he deserved. Anyone who actually understood the nuts and bolts of how the APR works would find it 100% impossible to defend its methodology.

And as others have pointed out, we are not the only program facing APR trouble. In fact, we don't even know who else is banned from the 2013 tournament because the 2011 scores haven't even been released yet. So the idea that "everyone else found a way to comply" isn't even true.

 

[caw]

Non-monitoring? It has nothing to do with non-monitoring. It has everything to do with not rigging a bogus system from the get-go. UConn's problem was that it sent students to actual classes, classes that the students did not complete with full credit because they (like Gavin Edwards) moved on to pro contracts in the spring. At other schools, you have short intersession classes that bring players into compliance, and if they need to leave in the spring, the classes already contain an online component (this is what Brandon Knight was doing last spring). UConn, according to the waiver application, will make three intersession courses mandatory in the summer for all players, as well as one week intersession classes. You wonder why the APR is higher than ever before? Easy. They lowered the standards just like every other school.

There is no way for the AD to monitor student grades other than mid-semester and final reports in legitimate classes.

I look at it this way. Dyson was trying out of teams/trying to be a pro (and doing pretty darn well for himself in the D-League) and still managed to graduate/not hurt the APR. Edwards and everyone else should have been able to do the same. UConn should have had people in charge of making sure these kids did finish their classes.