Decision on Tourney Eligibility within 10 days

[caw]

The 2011 team lost one APR point due to Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's transfer. Did we turn a blind eye to Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's academic performance? Was he not provided the academic support that he needed? Did we drop the ball somehow?

The answer, of course, is no. We lost a point because Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred. Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred because Jim Calhoun didn't give him as many minutes as he thought he deserved. Anyone who actually understood the nuts and bolts of how the APR works would find it 100% impossible to defend its methodology.

And as others have pointed out, we are not the only program facing APR trouble. In fact, we don't even know who else is banned from the 2013 tournament because the 2011 scores haven't even been released yet. So the idea that "everyone else found a way to comply" isn't even true.

That isn't quite true, from what I am pulling from my partially drunk mind. I believe the point was lost because Jamal Coombs-McDaniel had a GPA below the minimum needed in order for UConn to apply for the transfer waiver (to get that point back). If UConn had helped him get a higher GPA (study halls, course selection, etc.) then even his transfer would not have been a negative. Of course if he had stayed at UConn he would have been eligible and a full 4 points because his GPA was high enough for non-transfers.

You are correct about not officially knowing who else may be banned, I think UConn is the only known school because previous scores were so low that even a perfect score would be too low.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

I look at it this way. Dyson was trying out of teams/trying to be a pro (and doing pretty darn well for himself in the D-League) and still managed to graduate/not hurt the APR. Edwards and everyone else should have been able to do the same. UConn should have had people in charge of making sure these kids did finish their classes.

When a player's eligibility is exhausted, what can you hold them to? You can't suspend them, there aren't any games left. If a kid in that situation wants to focus all of their effort on their draft prospects, there is nothing that the school can do other than ask him nicely.

 

[CL82]

UNLV tried that and failed. The court ruled that the NCAA is a voluntary association and if the university doesn't like what the NCAA is doing it is perfectly free to quit its membership and play by any rules it wants to play by. No different than if you are a member of a country club and you don't like their new rule that requires players to walk and hire a caddie. You have a choice of complying witht he rules or qutting and joining the course across the street which has rules more to you liking, or even giving up golf altogether and playing croquet.

I think that the fact that the new rules used old time periods that made compliance by UConn a mathmatical impossibility and a change in sanction to March madness eligibility makes this a very different circumstance.

 

[upstater]

Upstater, it doesn't matter whether they are bogus or not bogus. You are hung up on that point but bogus, not bogus, semi-bogus, it is completely irrelevent to the point. I've said that a million times. Everyone knew we were in danger of falling out of compliance yet nobody did a damned thing about it! No different than any other rule schools have to comply with. Why only give 12 scholarships? it is a totally abitrary number that has nothing at all to do with the game of basketball. If UNC wants to give 15, why should it matter to anyone else? Well, the APR is no differnet. The member schools of the NCAA agreed that this would be the process and all members would comply with certain APR standards. It is no more bogus than the scholarship limit or for that matter the limit on the number of games a team plays or for that matter that you play the game with 5 guys at a time. Those are all arbitrary and none of them really has anyhting to do with the game of basketball. But everyone in the NCAA agrees to comply with them. UCONN failed to do what 300 plus others did. So my argument is that UCONN has nobody to blame but itself. Not the NCAA, not the "bogus" rule. UCONN ignored a rule in a very clear blatent way just as if it had tried to play 6 guys at a time, or tscheduled an extra 5 games...everyone saw it coming and they still ignored it. it is no different than if an NFL team ignores the salary cap. You can argue that the salary cap has absolutely nothing to do with the game of football. But it is a rule and every team agrees by virtue of being in the league to comply with it. Same thing with the NCAA and the APR. You agree to comply or face consequences. There is no excuse.

Of course it matters. It matters a lot. I can't believe you can't see why it matters. UConn didn't make a farce out of academics quick enough. That's precisely why it matters.

 

[upstater]

What are you trying to do , correct minor inaccuracies and aviod the bottom line? Freescooter is right on this one.

I don't even know what this means.

 

[freescooter]

When a player's eligibility is exhausted, what can you hold them to? You can't suspend them, there aren't any games left. If a kid in that situation wants to focus all of their effort on their draft prospects, there is nothing that the school can do other than ask him nicely.

If it is so impossible, then how come UCONN is the only major program in this situation? It is not impossible. The record indicates that it is quite the opposite. Trying to blame the NCAA or the APR is just letting UCONN off the hook, and the evidence suggests that they don't deserve to be let off the hook. Now the argument that they ought to allow the current year's data, is I think legitimate, but the rest of it is nothing more than trying to find someone else to blame for a problem that UCONN created for itself. Just like someone has to keep track of the cap room for an NFL team, someone has to keep track of APR for a college basketball team. 300 plus schools did it including some programs tha twould accept parking meters if they could hit a jumpshot. One major program did such a bad job that it is almost impossible to dig itself out even if it gets perfect scores. How you can act as if it is the NCAA's fault is simply beyond my ability to comprehend.

 

[upstater]

I look at it this way. Dyson was trying out of teams/trying to be a pro (and doing pretty darn well for himself in the D-League) and still managed to graduate/not hurt the APR. Edwards and everyone else should have been able to do the same. UConn should have had people in charge of making sure these kids did finish their classes.

But so what? I mean, the guy went to college for 3 1.2 years, and then flubbed it. At that point, it's on him. But still, that makes him more of a student than Brandon Knight. That's my point.

People in charge of making sure students finish classes? Wha? How can you force a grown man to sit in class?

The way to make sure they finish classes is to make up bogus 1 week classes and force players to take those long before the NCAA tournament. An intersession course right before the Spring semester may qualify you for the spring. But that's a total perversion of education.

 

[Gurleyman]

UCONN ignored a rule in a very clear blatent way just as if it had tried to play 6 guys at a time.

While I agree that UConn has significant blame in all this and your central premise has merit, that's a mind-numbingly absurd analogy. My brain hurts from reading it. Please try harder.

 

[upstater]

If it is so impossible, then how come UCONN is the only major program in this situation? It is not impossible. The record indicates that it is quite the opposite. Trying to blame the NCAA or the APR is just letting UCONN off the hook, and the evidence suggests that they don't deserve to be let off the hook. Now the argument that they ought to allow the current year's data, is I think legitimate, but the rest of it is nothing more than trying to find someone else to blame for a problem that UCONN created for itself. Just like someone has to keep track of the cap room for an NFL team, someone has to keep track of APR for a college basketball team. 300 plus schools did it including some programs tha twould accept parking meters if they could hit a jumpshot. One major program did such a bad job that it is almost impossible to dig itself out even if it gets perfect scores. How you can act as if it is the NCAA's fault is simply beyond my ability to comprehend.

Someone already pointed out that there were three other schools that didn't make the grade but you continue to ignore it. Regardless, that has nothing to do with the fact that the whole measurement is totally bogus and anti-educational. You're essentially criticizing UConn for not perverting learning quick enough. That's farcical.

 

[caw]

When a player's eligibility is exhausted, what can you hold them to? You can't suspend them, there aren't any games left. If a kid in that situation wants to focus all of their effort on their draft prospects, there is nothing that the school can do other than ask him nicely.

Don't have to ask nicely. Repeated phone calls, calls to the parents, etc.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

If it is so impossible, then how come UCONN is the only major program in this situation? It is not impossible. The record indicates that it is quite the opposite. Trying to blame the NCAA or the APR is just letting UCONN off the hook, and the evidence suggests that they don't deserve to be let off the hook. Now the argument that they ought to allow the current year's data, is I think legitimate, but the rest of it is nothing more than trying to find someone else to blame for a problem that UCONN created for itself. Just like someone has to keep track of the cap room for an NFL team, someone has to keep track of APR for a college basketball team. 300 plus schools did it including some programs tha twould accept parking meters if they could hit a jumpshot. One major program did such a bad job that it is almost impossible to dig itself out even if it gets perfect scores. How you can act as if it is the NCAA's fault is simply beyond my ability to comprehend.

Again, Uconn is not the only school affected. We won't know who else is affected for 2013 until the 2011 scores are released in May. We do know that at least 13 other schools would have been affected in 2012 had the new rules been in place.

 

[freescooter]

So upstater, its your contention that UCONN is the only scool in the whole friggin' NCAA that doesn't make a farce out of academics? Please. The SAT scores of the teams that got us into this mess totally belies that point. When the University average was over 1100 and climbing, UCONN accepted basketball players in the 850 range according to its own filing with the NCAA. So I'm thinking that I wouldn't exactly try and make that argument, upstater.

 

[upstater]

https://twitter.com/#!/JayBilas/statuses/175243907209240577

Want coaches to kick problem players off the team? You take a hit on the NCAA mandated APR score! NCAA creates disincentive to discipline.

Bilas kicks the APR all the time, and yet apparently this isn't supposed to be discussed.

I do not agree with the way the NCAA deals with these issues. I am in favor of high academic standards, but I think the schools are fully capable of dealing with that issue on their own. The APR is, quite simply, a joke. There are unintended consequences to these measures, including students being encouraged to take the easy path and academic clustering. Different schools have different missions, and a one size fits all system will not work. The APR bans hurt the wrong people, and I believe any system that punishes retroactively is wrong. But, if the NCAA wants to make the APR the holy grail, fine. Whatever the bar is, people will clear it for the money. Education, however, will not be served. There is a big difference between education and graduation or APR numbers. Thanks for the question.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

Don't have to ask nicely. Repeated phone calls, calls to the parents, etc.

I'd imagine that any player in that situation would discuss the decision with his parents and they would likely be on the same page. I'm sure those phone calls took place and I'm also pretty confident that they didn't make a difference.

 

[upstater]

So upstater, its your contention that UCONN is the only scool in the whole friggin' NCAA that doesn't make a farce out of academics? Please. The SAT scores of the teams that got us into this mess totally belies that point. When the University average was over 1100 and climbing, UCONN accepted basketball players in the 850 range according to its own filing with the NCAA. So I'm thinking that I wouldn't exactly try and make that argument, upstater.

You still don't get it. It's crazy. UConn only failed at this because they hadn't yet perverted the whole point of education. Did you read my earlier post? Did you read the waiver UConn sent to the NCAA? That's what I was referencing? So how does UConn get its scores up so quickly? Does it have anything to do with going to art galleries in NYC after Xmas? Does it have anything to do with MANDATORY intersession courses? That was part of UConn's pitch to the NCAA for the waiver. It's crazy that you don't understand this.

 

[caw]

But so what? I mean, the guy went to college for 3 1.2 years, and then flubbed it. At that point, it's on him. But still, that makes him more of a student than Brandon Knight. That's my point.

People in charge of making sure students finish classes? Wha? How can you force a grown man to sit in class?

The way to make sure they finish classes is to make up bogus 1 week classes and force players to take those long before the NCAA tournament. An intersession course right before the Spring semester may qualify you for the spring. But that's a total perversion of education.

I don't disagree with this. The APR sucks.

The problem is UConn knew it sucked and knew how it worked. UConn knew there would be sanctions for non-compliance with the APR. They didn't know this insanely new rule would come about, but they knew there would be sanctions. UConn still did not do a good enough job of making sure these kids were set when they left. UConn should have been calling anyone they needed to call to get these kids to finish their work. If it ends up a perversion of education, so be it. UConn should have been able to make sure kids who were seniors would be leaving within compliance with NCAA rules. Freshman/Sophomores/Juniors I understand not getting it right, but Seniors should have been on pace to graduate (within NCAA rules).

 

[caw]

I'd imagine that any player in that situation would discuss the decision with his parents and they would likely be on the same page. I'm sure those phone calls took place and I'm also pretty confident that they didn't make a difference.

Right, because the whole AO saga obviously showed that the kids and parents were on the same page. Even the parents weren't on the same page.

 

[freescooter]

Someone already pointed out that there were three other schools that didn't make the grade but you continue to ignore it. Regardless, that has nothing to do with the fact that the whole measurement is totally bogus and anti-educational. You're essentially criticizing UConn for not perverting learning quick enough. That's farcical.

I'm not ignoring anything...there were over 300 that did make the grade. And you keep arguing that everyone else "perverts the educational process'" which you know is totally bogus as well. A few schools do I'm sure, but over 300? Serioulsy? If that's the case than we really need to close this entire college basketball enterpise down as quickly as possible. Look, I'm not saying the APR is a good measure or a bad measure. I've heard arguments on both sides. I've spoken to Walter Harris about it and heard him speak about it at a couple of functions, and he defends it as a reasonable measure, so clearly, upstater, not everyone agrees with you that it is either bogus or anti-educational. But that is beside the point in a way. It is that it is the measure the NCAA agreed to use. As such it is incumbent on UCONN to make a major effort to comply. I do not believe that the athletic department did that for the men's basketball team. And blaming the measuring device or the NCAA does not change that simple fact.

 

[Gurleyman]

If it is so impossible, then how come UCONN is the only major program in this situation? It is not impossible. The record indicates that it is quite the opposite. Trying to blame the NCAA or the APR is just letting UCONN off the hook, and the evidence suggests that they don't deserve to be let off the hook. Now the argument that they ought to allow the current year's data, is I think legitimate, but the rest of it is nothing more than trying to find someone else to blame for a problem that UCONN created for itself. Just like someone has to keep track of the cap room for an NFL team, someone has to keep track of APR for a college basketball team. 300 plus schools did it including some programs tha twould accept parking meters if they could hit a jumpshot. One major program did such a bad job that it is almost impossible to dig itself out even if it gets perfect scores. How you can act as if it is the NCAA's fault is simply beyond my ability to comprehend.

It was a very small window of players. Our APR was fine from 2005-09. Then it was god-awful for two years. Now it's excellent. The bad years involved a few guys that the staff should have responsibility for - Darius Smith, who probably shouldn't have been recruited. Jonathan Mandeldove, who was on scholarship but not playing during those years (what more can a school do?). Gavin Edwards should have graduated, but philosophically I can live with the guys who leave a few credits unfinished to take their best shot at the pros. But then there's some unusual circumstances: Nate Miles - who was an 0-2 but based on something entirely different than academics. Stanley Robinson, who was only in school for seven semesters because of a personal leave of absence. A.J. Price, who missed a year and fell behind academically when he almost died. Don't know if Thabeet withdrew from classes after declaring, but that would be another hit. As would Ater Majok. All these things happen in a small window of time and your APR plummets. But if you bounce back from it as quickly as we did, it shows that a brief low APR isn't a true representation of the program - it's just an outlier.

Our other mistake in not gaming the system all along, has been in having the revolving door at the end of the bench. We keep taking flyers on the Haralsons, Eaves, Smiths, Trices, etc. who we let go (even going back to Chad Wise, Robert Swain, and others). If you use your last two scholarships on good students from Connecticut who would be happy to wave a towel for four years for good ol' state U and get a degree, you end up giving yourself from cushion. That's what the North Carolinas of the world do (you saw one of them - Stilman White - who actually had to play).

 

[upstater]

I don't disagree with this. The APR sucks.

The problem is UConn knew it sucked and knew how it worked. UConn knew there would be sanctions for non-compliance with the APR. They didn't know this insanely new rule would come about, but they knew there would be sanctions. UConn still did not do a good enough job of making sure these kids were set when they left. UConn should have been calling anyone they needed to call to get these kids to finish their work. If it ends up a perversion of education, so be it. UConn should have been able to make sure kids who were seniors would be leaving within compliance with NCAA rules. Freshman/Sophomores/Juniors I understand not getting it right, but Seniors should have been on pace to graduate (within NCAA rules).

I can't get upset because a school didn't pervert its educational mission quickly enough.

 

[upstater]

I'm not ignoring anything...there were over 300 that did make the grade. And you keep arguing that everyone else "perverts the educational process'" which you know is totally bogus as well. A few schools do I'm sure, but over 300? Serioulsy? If that's the case than we really need to close this entire college basketball enterpise down as quickly as possible. Look, I'm not saying the APR is a good measure or a bad measure. I've heard arguments on both sides. I've spoken to Walter Harris about it and heard him speak about it at a couple of functions, and he defends it as a reasonable measure, so clearly, upstater, not everyone agrees with you that it is either bogus or anti-educational. But that is beside the point in a way. It is that it is the measure the NCAA agreed to use. As such it is incumbent on UCONN to make a major effort to comply. I do not believe that the athletic department did that for the men's basketball team. And blaming the measuring device or the NCAA does not change that simple fact.

Haha! Walter Harrison, first of all, not Walter Harris. And he's a freakin' NCAA bigwig! What do you expect him to say? Herbst thinks its bogus. Bilas does. It's bogus plain and simple but you refuse to admit it.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

Right, because the whole AO saga obviously showed that the kids and parents were on the same page. Even the parents weren't on the same page.

Come on. So the Oriakhi's are the typical family all of a sudden?

I'm not arguing that Calhoun and others should have reached out to the parents. I'm arguing that they probably did reach out, and it probably didn't have any impact.

 

[freescooter]

Bilas is full of it. He doesn't want any NCAA admission standards either. And he argues that there is nothing that can be done about 1-and-done. And that players should be paid. And that only major programs should get NCAA bids. He is nothing but a shill for the big programs. The fact that he has a law degree does nothing to make him less of a shill. Look, I would favor much higher academic standards for admission, and I favor ending 1-and-done by making scholarships unavailable until the recipeint's class graduates, and I favor requiring admission of athletes to reasonably track with the overall student body such that someone with an SAT score of 800 wouldn't get into Gampel without buying a ticket. And for that matter, reorganizing the NCAA tournament such that an eastern team never plays in Phoenix on a Thursday night and a team from California would't ever play in Boston unless one of those cities was hosting th efinal four. In a perfect world, universities wouldn't pervert the educational system by accepting students they know have zero intention of staying to actually graduate, and wouldn't line them up in phony courses and give them phony grades. But since we've seen universities do all these things it became necessary for the NCAA to step in. Now at least there is some standard. You have made very clear that you think it is a bad standard, but I'm not sure it is any worse than what went on before. Guys a tsome schools getting degrees without taking classes or having grades changed by adminsitrators to keep players eligilble, for example.

 

[freescooter]

Haha! Walter Harrison, first of all, not Walter Harris. And he's a freakin' NCAA bigwig! What do you expect him to say? Herbst thinks its bogus. Bilas does. It's bogus plain and simple but you refuse to admit it.

You caught me. Huzzah!

 

[champs99and04]

There is no good reason for why UConn did not get high enough APR scores, true. Nate Miles incident aside, the rest of the kids who hurt the score should have been kept track of better.

However, there are a number of schools besides UConn that would be in hot water if this rule was in effect this year (13 of 68 NCAAT teams). If 20% of the NCAA field would have been ineligible this year, how many of the teams that failed to make the tournament would have been ineligible if the rules were implemented this year on all teams with no waivers or pardons? I would bet at least 10% of the 300+ schools.

UConn isn't the only team with APR issues, it just happens to be the only school not granted immunity to the rule or a waiver for next year.

Further, APR is just a silly metric. It let's teams say a kid who has 24 credits after his freshman year is on par to a senior who has 96 credits (not to mention credits towards an actual major). Who is actually closer to graduating? Both players are 4 points.

Let's not even get into how many rising seniors could be transferring teams in the future to be eligible to the NCAAT and how that will change recruiting and potentially cause issues with recruiting kids already on scholarship (which does happen already with mid-majors and the 5th year/grad school rule).

I am going to have to disagree with that. In 2009 UConn recruited four kids, all of whom are now gone for reasons that are purely basketball related. When you consider that transfers are, inexplicably, held to a higher standard than other early departures, it makes it easy to lose points based on those four kids alone. As of now, it doesn't appear that AO will cost us any points, but I'm pretty sure Trice and Smith lost us at least one point, and unless they were not meeting the requirements that a normal student athlete would have to meet, that's pretty much bull . I forget what kind of standing Coombs was in, but he might have lost us a point as well.

The 08 class included two transfers as well in Scottie Haralson and Nate Miles, so in total that's five transfers over the past five years, all of whom transferred because they were unhappy with playing time. Assuming they were meeting the requirements, it appears absolutely absurd that the NCAA is using this as evidence that our basketball players do not take class seriously. On a football team, you can certainly overcome these transfers, but in basketball you are working with a much smaller sample size. While there is no doubt UConn could have done a better job with the APR, I'm pretty sure would be safe if it wasn't for these transfers.

Secondly, I agree with you that UConn knew the rules and should have complied, however, I don't think that is the heart of the issue. What I have a big problem with is NCAA having a rule with consequence X, then keeping that same rule and changing it to consequence Y without giving anybody a heads up. That's not UConn breaking the rules, that's the NCAA dropping a nuclear bomb to try to prove a point without thinking it through.

If the rules were cut and dry, and UConn broke them, then they made their own bed. However, that wasn't the case at all, and UConn was one of the few schools willing to take a poor APR score at the expense of two scholarships. If the NCAA wants to change the rules, fine, but you have to grandfather it in.