Coach Hurley says this year's team can't take "hard" coaching

[HuskyWarrior611]

This thread went weird... Are all of the random arbitrary game logs comparing Ross to Lamb? What is the point?

Are we arguing that JC gave Lamb a chance and DH hasn't given Ross one? I'm beyond confused.

The lack of reading comprehension skills is bizarre. Not sure if this is genuine or trolling at this point.

 

[boog204]

The lack of reading comprehension skills is bizarre. Not sure if this is genuine or trolling at this point.

Is your vibe that Hurley doesn't develop perimeter players? He just put two in the NBA in Hawkins and Jackson, we saw Newton make a huge jump from Sr. to Super Senior year (let's be honest, he was mediocre until the tourney in 23), and Ball is undoubtedly a better player this year, albeit flawed, but better. So again, what is your point? Lamb's minutes fluctuated until things clicked once the BE season began. He was far and away our best (only?) option at the 2G. Our guards that year were Kemba, who was going to play 35 minutes, Bazz, and Lamb. DBev was there but only played a few minutes. JC saw enough and said let's go all in and that was that. I know its hindsight, but in terms of skillset, Lamb was a vastly superior player and I'm one of the biggest Ross fans on this board.

Ross and Stew have been big disappointments this year. But I do not think it's DH's lack of development. Both have been horrifically inconsistent, are prone to truly bonehead plays on both sides of the ball, and play with absolutely zero confidence. Stew was the starter for over a month with a longer leash and you still never knew who was going to show up game-to-game.

I'm all for being critical of aspects of DH this year. But player development, this year, is not one of those aspects, IMO.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Is your vibe that Hurley doesn't develop perimeter players? He just put two in the NBA in Hawkins and Jackson, we saw Newton make a huge jump from Sr. to Super Senior year (let's be honest, he was mediocre until the tourney in 23), and Ball is undoubtedly a better player this year, albeit flawed, but better. So again, what is your point? Lamb's minutes fluctuated until things clicked once the BE season began. He was far and away our best (only?) option at the 2G. Our guards that year were Kemba, who was going to play 35 minutes, Bazz, and Lamb. DBev was there but only played a few minutes. JC saw enough and said let's go all in and that was that. I know its hindsight, but in terms of skillset, Lamb was a vastly superior player and I'm one of the biggest Ross fans on this board.

Ross and Stew have been big disappointments this year. But I do not think it's DH's lack of development. Both have been horrifically inconsistent, are prone to truly bonehead plays on both sides of the ball, and play with absolutely zero confidence. Stew was the starter for over a month with a longer leash and you still never knew who was going to show up game-to-game.

I'm all for being critical of aspects of DH this year. But player development, this year, is not one of those aspects, IMO.

So it’s reading comprehension

No I’ll just point out two of those guys can’t dribble or finish and the other can’t finish or score in general. But yeah, development.

And then we can talk about the guys the staff couldn’t teach the 3 point shot too because that’s apparently the only thing they can teach offensively.

Lamb did not have a crazy skillset coming in. He couldn’t dribble, had a smooth but inconsistent jumper, and wasn’t a good defender. All he had were tools like the guy we’re currently talking about.

The difference is he had a coach that could actually teach him things and give him direction outside of putting him on the court and wishing him luck tossing up 3s.

Also I wish this board was smart enough to stop bringing up Newton for development. It’s so flawed.

Do you know how dumb it sounds to call someone a successful development story because he struggled here and then turned it around. So it’s a successful story because we made him play bad at first when he was great elsewhere? That’s stupid. Its embarrassing to keep propping up this story of the 2nd to last pick of the draft.

 

[boog204]

So it’s reading comprehension

Lamb did not have a crazy skillset coming in. He couldn’t dribble, had a smooth but inconsistent jumper, and wasn’t a good defender. All he had were tools like the guy we’re currently talking about.

The difference is he had a coach that could actually teach him things and give him direction outside of putting him on the court and wishing him luck tossing up 3s.

Also I wish this board was smart enough to stop bringing up Newton for development. It’s so flawed.

Do you know how dumb it sounds to call someone a successful development story because he struggled here and then turned it around. So it’s a successful story because we made him play bad at first when he was great elsewhere? That’s stupid. Its embarrassing to keep propping up this story of the 2nd to last pick of the draft.

riiiight... Good luck with this one. Maybe bring the Gaffney argument back, too? That one had some legs.

 

[boog204]

So it’s reading comprehension

Lamb did not have a crazy skillset coming in. He couldn’t dribble, had a smooth but inconsistent jumper, and wasn’t a good defender. All he had were tools like the guy we’re currently talking about.

The difference is he had a coach that could actually teach him things and give him direction outside of putting him on the court and wishing him luck tossing up 3s.

Also I wish this board was smart enough to stop bringing up Newton for development. It’s so flawed.

Do you know how dumb it sounds to call someone a successful development story because he struggled here and then turned it around. So it’s a successful story because we made him play bad at first when he was great elsewhere? That’s stupid. Its embarrassing to keep propping up this story of the 2nd to last pick of the draft.

Game 1 to 41. If you cannot see that Lamb had an advanced skillset, as a freshman mind you, to sophomore Ross, then I just don't know what to tell you.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Game 1 to 41. If you cannot see that Lamb had an advanced skillset, as a freshman mind you, to sophomore Ross, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Already pointed out Lamb struggled at first and then grew into his tools the more playing time and shots he got. Then it was abundantly clear the skillset he had once he was comfortable and Lamb himself has said this.

Ross doesn’t have the same opportunity to take half the shots Lamb was allowed to take to show off the same skillset because Hurley quit on him a month in (you can see by the shot attempts, not minutes). Hell Lamb was a maestro from mid range which is not a good shot in this offense.

But it’s okay. We’ll just sit back and wait for the next group of guards to come in, not get any real opportunity to grow, and then blame it on a misevaluation again.

 

[boog204]

Already pointed out Lamb struggled at first and then grew into his tools the more playing time and shots he got. Then it was abundantly clear the skillset he had once he was comfortable and Lamb himself has said this.

Ross doesn’t have the same opportunity to take half the shots Lamb was allowed to take to show off the same skillset because Hurley quit on him a month in (you can see by the shot attempts, not minutes). Hell Lamb was a maestro from mid range which is not a good shot in this offense.

But it’s okay. We’ll just sit back and wait for the next group of guards to come in, not get any real opportunity to grow, and then blame it on a misevaluation again.

Agree on your first part... Lamb grew with time and by the 3/4 point of the year he was an outstanding 2G who very clearly had lottery pick potential.

But you have said, now repeatedly, that Lamb did not have a better skillset than Ross. It was blatantly obvious from the first minutes that Lamb had some serious tools. I know highlights do not tell the whole picture, but Lamb was doing things in those first games that Ross has never been able to do. I look at Ross and I see a bouncy kid. He's raw, long, and athletic. He has had brief moments of being a great defender. I don't see a great handle or jump shot. I do not see someone who can play instinctively and certainly see someone with absolutely zero confidence and understanding of the flow of the game. Ross was given the starting nod the first game after Liam went down and he was awful. He was given other opportunities early in the year when DH was pumping him up as a starter and he failed. Much like Stew, Ross was given opportunity to play minutes and just didn't bring much to the table. How much more, in a season of somewhat desperation like this, do you want him to go back to the well?

We have our two highest rated guards coming in next year and I think an enormous sleeper in Furphy as well. If these dudes stagnate/bust then you may have something. To be honest, I think the bigger question is how/why DH is now 0/2 in bringing top 50 freshmen PGs. I'm not ready to write off Nowell yet, but wow, that has not worked out in the way I thought. Legit thought he could end up being the starting PG. Diggins, given his #'s at UMass, was probably just an overrated recruit. But still.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Agree on your first part... Lamb grew with time and by the 3/4 point of the year he was an outstanding 2G who very clearly had lottery pick potential.

But you have said, now repeatedly, that Lamb did not have a better skillset than Ross. It was blatantly obvious from the first minutes that Lamb had some serious tools. I know highlights do not tell the whole picture, but Lamb was doing things in those first games that Ross has never been able to do. I look at Ross and I see a bouncy kid. He's raw, long, and athletic. He has had brief moments of being a great defender. I don't see a great handle or jump shot. I do not see someone who can play instinctively and certainly see someone with absolutely zero confidence and understanding of the flow of the game. Ross was given the starting nod the first game after Liam went down and he was awful. He was given other opportunities early in the year when DH was pumping him up as a starter and he failed. Much like Stew, Ross was given opportunity to play minutes and just didn't bring much to the table. How much more, in a season of somewhat desperation like this, do you want him to go back to the well?

We have our two highest rated guards coming in next year and I think an enormous sleeper in Furphy as well. If these dudes stagnate/bust then you may have something. To be honest, I think the bigger question is how/why DH is now 0/2 in bringing top 50 freshmen PGs. I'm not ready to write off Nowell yet, but wow, that has not worked out in the way I thought. Legit thought he could end up being the starting PG. Diggins, given his #'s at UMass, was probably just an overrated recruit. But still.

I for sure agree you can tell Lamb had tools when you watch him on the court instantly. But it did not turn into production until later.

Ross similarly has tools that is not being turned into production. We mentioned the athlete part, he has a great looking jumper, and has shown pretty good handle to get to spots he wants to get to and the ability to make good passes. Look at this shot vs Marquette in a situation he HAD to shoot it in so he didn’t think about it at 3:30:



Ross was also pretty good against Georgetown and was rewarded with 8 minutes and 0 shots against Creighton the next game.

My point is not that Lamb didn’t have a skillset or tools. It’s that Ross has them also. But Ross doesn’t get pushed the same way Lamb did to explore them. Hurley has been perfectly content with him doing nothing but being a 3 and D guy and may even punish him for doing more and messing up. Which is why we see 3 shots a game from him at most. Stew has similar problems where Hurley only seems comfortable with him shooting 3s as those are the majority of shots he takes. He does not get asked to explore other parts of his game.

I appreciate you actually bringing an intellectual thought to the discussion rather than a snarky comment because you have nothing to add.

Also yes, I’m also on the we haven’t seen if Hurley is capable of developing a PG contingent too. Which is why I’m petrified for Adams if that’s our plan for him.

As for guards overall, I’m waiting for Hurley to be able to teach these guys how to do something besides shoot.

 

[Excalibur]

Game 1 to 41. If you cannot see that Lamb had an advanced skillset, as a freshman mind you, to sophomore Ross, then I just don't know what to tell you.

His entire argument is based on an assumption that is objectively wrong, and that anyone with a brain and critical thinking skills can see past.

 

[Excalibur]

I for sure agree you can tell Lamb had tools when you watch him on the court instantly. But it did not turn into production until later.

"Later" was the seventh game of the season . . .

 

[Kemba15]

I for sure agree you can tell Lamb had tools when you watch him on the court instantly. But it did not turn into production until later.

Ross similarly has tools that is not being turned into production. We mentioned the athlete part, he has a great looking jumper, and has shown pretty good handle to get to spots he wants to get to and the ability to make good passes. Look at this shot vs Marquette in a situation he HAD to shoot it in so he didn’t think about it at 3:30:



Ross was also pretty good against Georgetown and was rewarded with 8 minutes and 0 shots against Creighton the next game.

My point is not that Lamb didn’t have a skillset or tools. It’s that Ross has them also. But Ross doesn’t get pushed the same way Lamb did to explore them. Hurley has been perfectly content with him doing nothing but being a 3 and D guy and may even punish him for doing more and messing up. Which is why we see 3 shots a game from him at most. Stew has similar problems where Hurley only seems comfortable with him shooting 3s as those are the majority of shots he takes. He does not get asked to explore other parts of his game.

I appreciate you actually bringing an intellectual thought to the discussion rather than a snarky comment because you have nothing to add.

Also yes, I’m also on the we haven’t seen if Hurley is capable of developing a PG contingent too. Which is why I’m petrified for Adams if that’s our plan for him.

As for guards overall, I’m waiting for Hurley to be able to teach these guys how to do something besides shoot.

Wasn't Calhoun infamous for quick hooks and being too hard on players for making mistakes? Even if you are right that Ross is being underutilized and underdeveloped you should trust the staff to figure it out and course correct based on everything they have accomplished so far.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Wasn't Calhoun infamous for quick hooks and being too hard on players for making mistakes? Even if you are right that Ross is being underutilized and underdeveloped you should trust the staff to figure it out and course correct based on everything they have accomplished so far.

Completely different and I’ve explained this before. You all have revisionist history about this quick hook. It was not that deep. And based on Calhoun’s track record for developing STARS, I’d say he knew exactly what he was doing. Unless you’d rather bring up why 80th ranked recruit Marcus White didn’t get enough playing time on a team that had Ben Gordon, Rashad Anderson, and Dehnam Brown on it (not you but lol at the reaches people make to bring down Calhoun to excuse Hurley).

Based on how this board is talking, it doesn’t seem like the staff will be interested in course correcting with Ross. I’m proud that despite his struggles and the lack of trust the staff has shown him recently he’s still the main player you see standing up cheering his teammates on every game.

What an amazing kid.

 

[boog204]

I for sure agree you can tell Lamb had tools when you watch him on the court instantly. But it did not turn into production until later.

Ross similarly has tools that is not being turned into production. We mentioned the athlete part, he has a great looking jumper, and has shown pretty good handle to get to spots he wants to get to and the ability to make good passes. Look at this shot vs Marquette in a situation he HAD to shoot it in so he didn’t think about it at 3:30:



Ross was also pretty good against Georgetown and was rewarded with 8 minutes and 0 shots against Creighton the next game.

My point is not that Lamb didn’t have a skillset or tools. It’s that Ross has them also. But Ross doesn’t get pushed the same way Lamb did to explore them. Hurley has been perfectly content with him doing nothing but being a 3 and D guy and may even punish him for doing more and messing up. Which is why we see 3 shots a game from him at most. Stew has similar problems where Hurley only seems comfortable with him shooting 3s as those are the majority of shots he takes. He does not get asked to explore other parts of his game.

I appreciate you actually bringing an intellectual thought to the discussion rather than a snarky comment because you have nothing to add.

Also yes, I’m also on the we haven’t seen if Hurley is capable of developing a PG contingent too. Which is why I’m petrified for Adams if that’s our plan for him.

As for guards overall, I’m waiting for Hurley to be able to teach these guys how to do something besides shoot.

Only other thing I'll add is I'm not sure what to make of any "green light" scenario with any of our reserves. Are Stew and Ross discouraged from doing more because the main gist of our offense is to get 3's for AK, Liam, and Solo? Is it a case of guys "not being asked" to expand or is that what their skillset allows? Stew, in particular, is a guy who has shown some ability to pass, create, and put the ball on the floor (although he is also turnover-prone.) But he seems reluctant to do much when he has the ball in his hands. Is that his passivity or the nature of the offense?

I know they've joked about the green light concept with the bigs and shooting 3's. But does the intricacy of our offense hold certain guys back? I think a guy like Castle in some ways was "held back" from a purely offensive standpoint because we didn't need him to be a creator and ISO because our stuff was so next-level good. He's now gone to the league and illustrated that he can be an outstanding ISO guy and get to the hoop pretty much anytime he wants.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Only other thing I'll add is I'm not sure what to make of any "green light" scenario with any of our reserves. Are Stew and Ross discouraged from doing more because the main gist of our offense is to get 3's for AK, Liam, and Solo? Is it a case of guys "not being asked" to expand or is that what their skillset allows? Stew, in particular, is a guy who has shown some ability to pass, create, and put the ball on the floor (although he is also turnover-prone.) But he seems reluctant to do much when he has the ball in his hands. Is that his passivity or the nature of the offense?

I know they've joked about the green light concept with the bigs and shooting 3's. But does the intricacy of our offense hold certain guys back? I think a guy like Castle in some ways was "held back" from a purely offensive standpoint because we didn't need him to be a creator and ISO because our stuff was so next-level good. He's now gone to the league and illustrated that he can be an outstanding ISO guy and get to the hoop pretty much anytime he wants.

If a guy is passive it’s your job as a coach to actively tell him to get aggressive. It’s hard to think Hurley is encouraging these guys to do so and they aren’t listening because why would a player turn down a chance to take more shots and make plays? And everyone should have been encouraged to make plays all season, not just a select few with it being “our deepest roster ever” to quote Hurley. Solo wasn’t even on that list until Liam went down and we had no choice but for Solo to make more plays.

The offense for sure holds guys back. Unless you’re a 3 point shooter of course which should give Mullins a good shot for next year. I think if Castle was in Newton’s role he would’ve thrived as the engine doing the things you listed.

But it shouldn’t be a requirement to be a 40% 3 point shooter to be good.

 

[Kemba15]

Completely different and I’ve explained this before. You all have revisionist history about this quick hook. It was not that deep. And based on Calhoun’s track record for developing STARS, I’d say he knew exactly what he was doing. Unless you’d rather bring up why 80th ranked recruit Marcus White didn’t get enough playing time on a team that had Ben Gordon, Rashad Anderson, and Dehnam Brown on it (not you but lol at the reaches people make to bring down Calhoun to excuse Hurley).

Based on how this board is talking, it doesn’t seem like the staff will be interested in course correcting with Ross. I’m proud that despite his struggles and the lack of trust the staff has shown him recently he’s still the main player you see standing up cheering his teammates on every game.

What an amazing kid.

Where you lose me is seemingly giving the staff no credit for any of this in the last 3 seasons:

• Turning 4-star Adama Sanogo into a two-time first-team All Big East selection
• Turning RJ Cole into a first-team All Big East selection
• Turning Donovan Clingan from the 50th-ranked HS player to one of the most valuable NCAAB players in recent memory and top 10 NBA draft pick
• Turning 4-star Jordan Hawkins into a first-team All Big East selection and top 15 NBA draft pick.
• Turning Cam Spencer from All Big Ten Honorable Mention to first-team All Big East

 

[Smp7598]

Coach always talked about the great parents who held the kids accountable. Doesn’t seem like the kids want to be held accountable.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Where you lose me is seemingly giving the staff no credit for any of this in the last 3 seasons:

• Turning 4-star Adama Sanogo into a two-time first-team All Big East selection
• Turning RJ Cole into a first-team All Big East selection
• Turning Donovan Clingan from the 50th-ranked HS player to one of the most valuable NCAAB players in recent memory and top 10 NBA draft pick
• Turning 4-star Jordan Hawkins into a first-team All Big East selection and top 15 NBA draft pick.
• Turning Cam Spencer from All Big Ten Honorable Mention to first-team All Big East

Remove transfers from the equation that were already developed by the time they got here and I already gave you Hawkins issues in this thread.

I think Hurley is great with bigs.

 

[Excalibur]

Remove transfers from the equation that were already developed by the time they got here and I already gave you Hawkins issues in this thread.

I think Hurley is great with bigs.

If you didn't notice Hawins' overall improvement, including ball security/handle, from year 1 to 2 you don't have eyes.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

If you didn't notice Hawins' overall improvement, including ball security/handle, from year 1 to 2 you don't have eyes.

 

[jibsey]

Ross is on a future NBA draft list? In what universe?

 

[boog204]

If a guy is passive it’s your job as a coach to actively tell him to get aggressive. It’s hard to think Hurley is encouraging these guys to do so and they aren’t listening because why would a player turn down a chance to take more shots and make plays? And everyone should have been encouraged to make plays all season, not just a select few with it being “our deepest roster ever” to quote Hurley. Solo wasn’t even on that list until Liam went down and we had no choice but for Solo to make more plays.

The offense for sure holds guys back. Unless you’re a 3 point shooter of course which should give Mullins a good shot for next year. I think if Castle was in Newton’s role he would’ve thrived as the engine doing the things you listed.

But it shouldn’t be a requirement to be a 40% 3 point shooter to be good.

Because they lack confidence. Ross, Stew, and Mahaney are/can be petrified with the ball in their hands. Mahaney in particular passes up shots because he's so shellshocked. We've Ross and Stew hesitate because they are unsure of themselves. I have a hard time believing Hurley does not encourage someone to shoot the ball, be aggressive, and make plays.

The holding back was just rooted in that there is not a great amount of individual options built in. We had action, cuts, screening, etc. But then again, we do not have guys who can consistently do that anyway. So it's a chicken or the egg, thing.