Chief’s Briefs- Marquette Edition

[QDOG5]

Earlier in the year we talked about how quickly we were moving the ball into the front court. Not always taking a quick shot but having time to run multiple motions. Now teams are picking up Newton full court and we are walking the ball into the front court and we can't get into our actions quick enough. We need to advance the ball quicker into the front court by means possible.

 

[auror]

Is there a place to find the full replay for this game?

At one point in the 2nd half, Jackson dropped the ball off to Sanago and ran to the other side of the court, we had our 4 "shooters" all on the right side of the court and Sanago then gets doubled down low and can't physically pass it as all of his shooters were cross court.

I would love to see the replay to confirm. The offensive "set" didn't make any sense. He needs a shooter or 2 on his side to kick out to.

Woof. I can't screenshot on my Hulu, but it was around 17:57 2H. Jackson lays it off to Hawkins as Sanogo's entry positioning is developing and then moves through opposite to weak side, where Karaban and Newton already were. Hawkins then does the entry pass and also shades to the weak side in the middle. So yeah all 4 spacers are middle or weakside. Sanogo actually battles off the double and gets a shot off, and then this is the play Hawk got the tough oreb and then Sanogo got the tip follow. So we scored on it somehow.

 

[MuchoDogYears]

With a huge opportunity available at pg and the amount of options available in the portal, ultimately choosing to go with a mis-cast sg to fill that role is looking like the critical error for this season.

Imagine we had gone after a player like Boum or Kolek instead?

Or the local kid from CT in the portal who went to Georgetown.

 

[Rico444]

You keep going to the same losing well after it has produced 3 straight road loses. What further evidence do you need that perhaps we should try a different approach?

Sanogo would've gotten absolutely torched by Prosper. He's not quick enough to keep up with most 4s in this league, and definitely not the one we faced last night.

 

[hardcorehusky]

Its about the Jimmie's and Joe's, not the Xs and Os. If we played better perimeter D, hit a few more shots or had a few less turnovers, we win. Hurley went to a 1-3-1 and maybe stuck with it too long, but he wasn't the reason we lost.

We are in the middle of a long season and some guys have hit a lull. Joey C, Newton and Diarra need to give us what they did a month ago and Alleyne needs to play like he did at Va Tech. Jackson needs to figure out how to play down hill and attack the basket and not be a 3 pt shooter and passer. If this were March and this is what we are, I will be concerned. Until then, with ebbs and flows, there is room for growth.

 

[coachn]

First thing you have to do is try it. Worked well against PC for 4 minutes and haven’t seen it since. Very strange. Calhoun use to do it all the time, and generally never had the issues you are so concerned about. Rather it puts the other team in a reaction mode.

Your starting Jackson at the point is right on bring Newton off the bench.
Jackson PG
Hawkins
Karaban(3)
Sonogo(4)
Clingan(5)
Our defense intensity last nite did ot match MU.

 

[Chief00]

Your starting Jackson at the point is right on bring Newton off the bench.
Jackson PG
Hawkins
Karaban(3)
Sonogo(4)
Clingan(5)
Our defense intensity last nite did ot match MU.

That allows us to keep Karaban on the court because his man can’t take him into the paint with two Bigs.

 

[Chief00]

Sanogo would've gotten absolutely torched by Prosper. He's not quick enough to keep up with most 4s in this league, and definitely not the one we faced last night.

Yet we have him high hedging 23 feet from the basket without another Big back guarding the rim. Which is the better option?

 

[Chief00]

Calhoun always had perimeter-based teams through the 1999 national championship. Duke had dominant big men at that time and big lineups, but Calhoun couldn't recruit top big men until after the 1999 championship. After that he seemed to get a case of Duke envy and mimicked their strategy, recruiting a lot of top bigs, culminating in the 2004 national championship (Emeka Okafor, Charlie Villanueva, Josh Boone, Hilton Armstrong) and the big-heavy team that lost to George Mason in 2006 (Rudy Gay, Josh Boone, Jeff Adrien, Hilton Armstrong, Ed Nelson).

I always thought that was a questionable approach, the teams that won always had multiple great guards (2004 had Taliek, Ben Gordon, Marcus Williams, Rashad Anderson, Denham Brown). Big-heavy teams never seemed to perform as well in the tourney as in the regular season.

But for about 10 years, Calhoun was focused on recruiting great bigs.

Even in the 1990’s Jim had Jake 6-11 and Travis 7-1 with guys like Soul Wane.

 

[Improviser]

I did not like Jackson today. Tentative, slowed us down, and won’t attack the rim. Hawkins no show. I’m surprised it was that close. Time outs were poor also.

It was as close as it was, in part because of Clingan's scoring and inside presence that often kept MU away from the basket when he was in the game. His unanticipated blocks kept the game within range.

Of course, his scoring kept it as close as it was too. Credit the players who fed him, like Joey , Karaban and AJ.

 

[Billy Jack]

The comment was made that “Calhoun did it for decades” - “it” being starting 2 bigs together and sticking with them together for substantial minutes throughout the game.

I’ve gone back and checked the lineups. I found only 4 seasons when he did this:

2003-04 - Okafor/Boone
2004-05 - Villanueva/Boone
2095-06 - Boone/Armstrong
2011-12 - Drummond/Oriakhi

In none of these cases were both players expected to be big point producers. In the first 2 cases, we’re talking about 2 very mobile big men with Boone playing a decidedly complementary role. Villanueva in fact had an excellent face up game and could play like a true power forward. Armstrong was more of a traditional low post player but was paired with a very mobile Boone. All 3 of these were excellent, very successful teams. It’s noteworthy that Boone was the constant in all 3 of these pairings, which says something about his ability to develop a skill set and find a role to make all 3 of these different pairings work.

I think everyone agreed at the time that the Drummond/Oriakhi pairing was a huge disappointment. The team did not get the most out of its talent and did not achieve the level of success that was expected. I see this pair as the most comparable to a potential Sanogo/Clingen pairing. And I would expect a similar result.

In these comparisons, there was really no one who compares with Clingen who needs to position himself to receive passes for dunks and little under the basket moves. Nor is there anyone who compares with Sanogo who needs space to put the ball on the floor where he can back down opposing centers, then spin and twirl to find his shot. Neither of these 2 is a face-the-basket kind of power forward type nor are they passers who can receive the ball and then find rhe open man.

I have a hard time seeing this pairing working together successfully given their unique skill sets. I think that a coach has to pick one of them as his starter and use the other as a backup as Hurley has done. The coach can vary each player’s minutes from game to game. Hurley’s choice of the veteran, giving the freshman the opportunity to ease into college competition has made complete sense. As Clingen’s game has developed more rapidly than expected, he has earned more minutes, but no way does that mean playing the two of them together.

The use of the two as a 1-2 punch with Clingen coming off the bench has actually been incredibly successful, enabling us to dominate at the center position with a true low post presence which is a rarity in these days of an even shorter 30 second shot clock and centers who as likely to be shooting 3’s as making dunks. Here are their combined numbers:

39.9 mpg, 26.7 ppg, .634 FG%, .661 FT%, 13.1 RPG, 2.9 BPG

Who wouldn’t want that kind of production out of their center position?

 

[uconnfan68]

Calhoun always had perimeter-based teams through the 1999 national championship. Duke had dominant big men at that time and big lineups, but Calhoun couldn't recruit top big men until after the 1999 championship. After that he seemed to get a case of Duke envy and mimicked their strategy, recruiting a lot of top bigs, culminating in the 2004 national championship (Emeka Okafor, Charlie Villanueva, Josh Boone, Hilton Armstrong) and the big-heavy team that lost to George Mason in 2006 (Rudy Gay, Josh Boone, Jeff Adrien, Hilton Armstrong, Ed Nelson).

I always thought that was a questionable approach, the teams that won always had multiple great guards (2004 had Taliek, Ben Gordon, Marcus Williams, Rashad Anderson, Denham Brown). Big-heavy teams never seemed to perform as well in the tourney as in the regular season.

But for about 10 years, Calhoun was focused on recruiting great bigs.

Well, they didn’t have an Elton Brand in 99, but they managed to win anyway. Tell me we couldn’t use an Edmund Saunders as our 4.

 

[Billy Jack]

Even in the 1990’s Jim had Jake 6-11 and Travis 7-1 with guys like Soul Wane.

None of these 3 ever started together. Wane was only a starter in his final season and even then he didn’t play starter’s minutes, averaging only 20 mpg, which was 6th most on the team and not close to #5.

Neither Voskuhl nor Knight were big scorers in college. PJ is right when he said that the ‘90s’ teams were decidedly perimeter based teams.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

The comment was made that “Calhoun did it for decades” - “it” being starting 2 bigs together and sticking with them together for substantial minutes throughout the game.

I’ve gone back and checked the lineups. I found only 4 seasons when he did this:

2003-04 - Okafor/Boone
2004-05 - Villanueva/Boone
2095-06 - Boone/Armstrong
2011-12 - Drummond/Oriakhi

In none of these cases were both players expected to be big point producers. In the first 2 cases, we’re talking about 2 very mobile big men with Boone playing a decidedly complementary role. Villanueva in fact had an excellent face up game and could play like a true power forward. Armstrong was more of a traditional low post player but was paired with a very mobile Boone. All 3 of these were excellent, very successful teams. It’s noteworthy that Boone was the constant in all 3 of these pairings, which says something about his ability to develop a skill set and find a role to make all 3 of these different pairings work.

I think everyone agreed at the time that the Drummond/Oriakhi pairing was a huge disappointment. The team did not get the most out of its talent and did not achieve the level of success that was expected. I see this pair as the most comparable to a potential Sanogo/Clingen pairing. And I would expect a similar result.

In these comparisons, there was really no one who compares with Clingen who needs to position himself to receive passes for dunks and little under the basket moves. Nor is there anyone who compares with Sanogo who needs space to put the ball on the floor where he can back down opposing centers, then spin and twirl to find his shot. Neither of these 2 is a face-the-basket kind of power forward type nor are they passers who can receive the ball and then find rhe open man.

I have a hard time seeing this pairing working together successfully given their unique skill sets. I think that a coach has to pick one of them as his starter and use the other as a backup as Hurley has done. The coach can vary each player’s minutes from game to game. Hurley’s choice of the veteran, giving the freshman the opportunity to ease into college competition has made complete sense. As Clingen’s game has developed more rapidly than expected, he has earned more minutes, but no way does that mean playing the two of them together.

The use of the two as a 1-2 punch with Clingen coming off the bench has actually been incredibly successful, enabling us to dominate at the center position with a true low post presence which is a rarity in these days of an even shorter 30 second shot clock and centers who as likely to be shooting 3’s as making dunks. Here are their combined numbers:

39.9 mpg, 26.7 ppg, .634 FG%, .661 FT%, 13.1 RPG, 2.9 BPG

Who wouldn’t want that kind of production out of their center position?

in the wayback, 6'10 Cliff played 35 mpg while 6'10 jeff king played 32 mpg. the next season, Cliff was at 32 mpg with king at 22 mpg as they went on to win the NIT.

 

[Chief00]

in the wayback, 6'10 Cliff played 35 mpg while 6'10 jeff king played 32 mpg. the next season, Cliff was at 32 mpg with king at 22 mpg as they went on to win the NIT.

Good points. I have no idea how @Billy Jack counts. Keep in mind Adama is 6-8 to 6-9, so when I say Double Bigs, that was kind of our norm under Jim Calhoun. Josh, Emeka, Cliff, Charlie, Travis, Hilton, Jake, Deng, Olander, Alex O, Kenton, Thabeet, Ed Nelson, Edmund, J Adrien, S Wane, Rudy Guy, Caron, KFree and others. We beat Duke in 1999 with the Double Big help on Elton Brand. Please keep in mind we led the country in rebounding for almost 10 years. That’s pretty amazing.
The 6-7 to 6-9 guys Chief included were very physical and rebounders. KFree was slightly under height for a Big but his senior year when we tried to play him as an outside guy, that did not work so well.

 

[Billy Jack]

Cliff had a face-the-basket game. He was a true power forward. Frankly he was a 3 in a 6-10 body.

Jeff King was skinny as a rail. He weighed maybe 190 pounds. He was about as far removed from being a banger as you could get.

There is absolutely no valid comparison between these 2 and Sanogo/Clingan.

 

[Vancat]

Not Clingen, not Clingan, it's Clingan.

 

[Billy Jack]

The best comparison to Sanogo/Clingan that I can think of would be Alonzo Mourning/Dikembe Mutombo at Georgetown, whose height compare very closely to Sanogo & Clingan. They played together for 3 years with Dikembe coming off the bench for 11 mpg in their first year together. They started together for 2 years with mixed results.

Their first year starting together, Georgetown was very good (24-7, 11-5, 3rd in BE, Sweet 16). They lost to us in the Big East Tournament in our Dream Season when we had decidedly inferior bigs. ( I was at the game.) They lost in the Round Of 32 to Xavier.

Their second season together did not work out well (19-13, 8-8, 6th in Big East). They turned things around briefly in the postseason, beating us in the BE Tournament & finishing runner up to Seton Hall. They lost to UNLV in the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament.

A couple of footnotes to this experiment. Playing with Dikembe did not turn Alonzo into an NBA power forward. He played center almost his entire career.

Second, the comparison bigs down when you consider that both Alonzo and Dikembe are today in the Hall of Fame. No one is suggesting today that Sanogo and Clingan are headed to the Hall of Fame. If we look at the level of talent on those Georgetown teams, I think we’d have to say that fir a college lineup with 2 future Hall of Famers, those Georgetown teams underachieved.

Did Alonzo and Dikembe prove that you can play 2 big men together? Sure. At least the way the game was played 30+ years ago with a longer shot clock and decidedly less use of the 3-point line. At least you could play 2 guys together who were as quick and mobile as those two.

 

[Billy Jack]

Not Clingen, not Clingan, it's Clingan.

Sorry for the typos. I think there was an autocorrect in there.

 

[evmore]

Need to figure out what Newton does well…cause looks like he is just a body out there right now…Hawkins also needs to figure out other ways to impact to game if coming off screens he is covered, defenses are prepared for that now.

Newton at his best attacking the hoop & hitting spot up 3's. Def not a PG, and neither is HD. AJ is the only real pass-first guard we have and despite his reckless A:TO he is also our best ball defender and should start at the point.

 

[mrl2016]

Andre at PG
Hawkins at SG
Karaban at SF
Samson Johnson at PF
Clingan at C

Space, size, Andre backing down PGs like Gillespie. This is a lineup that takes us to a final four

 

[Billy Jack]

Good points. I have no idea how @Billy Jack counts. Keep in mind Adama is 6-8 to 6-9, so when I say Double Bigs, that was kind of our norm under Jim Calhoun. Josh, Emeka, Cliff, Charlie, Travis, Hilton, Jake, Deng, Olander, Alex O, Kenton, Thabeet, Ed Nelson, Edmund, J Adrien, S Wane, Rudy Guy, Caron, KFree and others. We beat Duke in 1999 with the Double Big help on Elton Brand. Please keep in mind we led the country in rebounding for almost 10 years. That’s pretty amazing.
The 6-7 to 6-9 guys Chief included were very physical and rebounders. KFree was slightly under height for a Big but his senior year when we tried to play him as an outside guy, that did not work so well.

And I don’t know how you count. I was a season ticket holder in those days. You show me a single season other than the 4 I listed in which Calhoun started 2 true bigs together.

I didn’t say that Calhoun didn’t have bigs on his teams. I said that he didn’t start two together as his regular lineup fir a season, which is what’s being proposed here.

I can’t believe some of the guys you’re ousting. Rudy Gay and Caron Butler bigs? You’ve got to be joking. Kevin Freeman a big? Please. He was a small power forward. No comparison to this situation.

Souleymane played 8 minutes as the backup to Jake who played 28 minutes against Duke. They did not play together. Getting help to double down on Brand is completely different than starting 2 bigs together as the regular lineup. So is starting 2 bugs together situationally.

 

[Billy Jack]

Andre at PG
Hawkins at SG
Karaban at SF
Samson Johnson at PF
Clingan at C

Space, size, Andre backing down PGs like Gillespie. This is a lineup that takes us to a final four

I like your thinking. My only problem is that fir Andre to post up PGs like Gillespie (or Brunson) - which I think is a good idea - the center has to vacate the middle to open up space. The guys tha Villanova played at center were more forwards than true centers and they could pop out to the 3-point line. They could hit those 3’s so their defender had to go out with them, thereby opening up space in the middle. Can Clingan do that? I haven’t seen it.

 

[NotADime89]

Even in the 1990’s Jim had Jake 6-11 and Travis 7-1 with guys like Soul Wane.

You do realize hoops in the 90's was played completely different than it is today? If you're suggesting we start both Sanogo and Clingan do you want us to play zone D? Sanogo has no chance guarding guys like Prosper or Hopkins 1/1.

 

[Scrappy3]

The chief has it right
start clingan and sanogo together
D Hurler has said it 10 x the last two weeks
the be is a tougher league
we have two enormous players
WE SHOULD BE THE BULLIES EVERYY Game!!! Start the game off with bully ball
we can still be a GREAT team our lineup just needed changes coming into big east play
line up
C Clingan
F Sanogo
F Karaban
G Hawkins
G Jackson

if we need more ball handling bring AK off the bench BUT I think the starting 5 can make it work

I do NOT CARE about winning big east I do care about having the best team in march WE CAN GET THERE