"Cheating going on" in women's basketball

[tomcat]

I'm sorry, guys, but I don't get it. You don't think there is cheating that goes on in WBB recruiting (and re-recruiting) circles? She was fairly clear that it wasn't the same sort of issues as the men are having, because of the lack of funds.

I had fairly good sources within the RU community at one time and heard of 3 "for certain" and 2 "quite possible" situations whereby other programs continued to recruit individuals that were either already committed or already playing at Rutgers. I also know of several situations that were not necessary cheating, but "smelled" and so do you - the hiring of parents and or league coaches to Assistant or other positions within various programs. If RU had promised the late Apache Paschal an Assistant's position (as it was rumored he wanted) would he have continued to recommend RU to players instead of steering them away? And would that have been cheating if RU had promised him a position?

Be glad that you follow a school with a very clean record (the SEC nonsense notwithstanding). Likewise Rutgers. Not every program.

I will say I don't think it is particularly widespread, but there is no doubt in my mind that Muffet is correct. Sorry.

The issue is not whether cheating is going on. I'm with you: I'm certain there's some, though not anywhere near the level of the men's game.
The issue is not that Muffet says cheating is going on. If she wanted to contribute to the debate, that's fine. And it's her business, anyway.

The issue is that when she commented, she said not enough to do anything more than have many people in WCBB turn around, looking at one another, saying "Who, me? You? Who, then." To say so much by saying so little is really unfair to those on whom suspicion will be cast. To throw out a generality with no specifics at all just confuses the issue. It got her a one-day story, and maybe suggested she was above it all. I can't believe this was something she talked to anyone about before she did it.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

The issue is not whether cheating is going on. I'm with you: I'm certain there's some, though not anywhere near the level of the men's game.
The issue is not that Muffet says cheating is going on. If she wanted to contribute to the debate, that's fine. And it's her business, anyway.

The issue is that when she commented, she said not enough to do anything more than have many people in WCBB turn around, looking at one another, saying "Who, me? You? Who, then." To say so much by saying so little is really unfair to those on whom suspicion will be cast. To throw out a generality with no specifics at all just confuses the issue. It got her a one-day story, and maybe suggested she was above it all. I can't believe this was something she talked to anyone about before she did it.

I agree that - since I see no way she could be specific, for a variety of reasons - she probably shouldn't have said anything. OTH, as Wirechief commented, I have no trouble with her saying it either.

In the end, I suspect it is mostly hear-say, combined with actual known violations. WBB being so much less high-profile than men's, a whole lot of cheating that has been caught just sort of goes by with little notice. How many fans on this board would remember Coach Adrian Wiggins - who was fired from Mississippi before coaching a game because of cheating. Violations are dealt with and it doesn't rise to a level that anyone is noting much publicly.

I'll add that the instances I know included a recruit ending up on a flight with a different recruiting schools Assistant in the seat immediately behind her; also an instance that was well rumored and might even have made the BY whereby an RU recruit left the team but could not transfer to where she wanted because there was "proof" in whatever way that the Assistant from that school had illegal contact with her while she was still playing at RU. She still transferred, just somewhere else.

 

[hjoerring]

Anyone off the streets could shout that out; but, she is not just anyone. She is a top coach from a top school/program making a comment about wbb. That is big however you shake it. Looked at from this vantage, she was being irresponsible-- if she does not go on and explain herself. She needs not give names and schools but, a lot more is needed. What she is saying is that other schools-- not ND are cheating. That is the arrogance of ND. It would have been better said had she problematized the whole cheating thing in relation to wbb. F. ex. 'I would not be surprise if some .....'; 'There have been cases where I thought ....') Her utterances can only help ND, as they quickly place them above all others. Is it close to cheating if a ND player goes on Facebook and tell a recruit that they (the Team) are looking forward to her moving-in net summer? I have seen that from an ex-ND player to a current Uconn player. Where do we draw the lines?

 

[HopJim]

I agree that - since I see no way she could be specific, for a variety of reasons - she probably shouldn't have said anything. OTH, as Wirechief commented, I have no trouble with her saying it either.

In the end, I suspect it is mostly hear-say, combined with actual known violations. WBB being so much less high-profile than men's, a whole lot of cheating that has been caught just sort of goes by with little notice. How many fans on this board would remember Coach Adrian Wiggins - who was fired from Mississippi before coaching a game because of cheating. Violations are dealt with and it doesn't rise to a level that anyone is noting much publicly.

I'll add that the instances I know included a recruit ending up on a flight with a different recruiting schools Assistant in the seat immediately behind her; also an instance that was well rumored and might even have made the BY whereby an RU recruit left the team but could not transfer to where she wanted because there was "proof" in whatever way that the Assistant from that school had illegal contact with her while she was still playing at RU. She still transferred, just somewhere else.

I think you net things out well. In D1 women's basketball, there doesn't seem to be the same degree of financial based cheating as in men's game. Muffet seems to be referring to coach or alum influence that often fits in the gray area. When you read the rules, they seem clear but with the number of ND, UConn, TX, etc. fans and alums out there, hard to always ensure inappropriate contact does not take place. Muffet tends to say things without fully thinking them out - you could apply her comments as easily to ND as any other major program.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

I feel for coaches who get questions and make comments like this. What should she have said? Had she replied no, people would have laughed and said she was clueless. I happen to agree with her but no coach should be interested in naming names to public outlets.

I doubt there is as much cheating as rather unethical behaviors that likely extend across the spectrum. The growth of the game in the AAU circuit plus increased media exposure (which is very minor but the game is covered more now than 20 years ago),
combined with the fact recruits now have their own communication devices basically attached to their hands all contribute to make a lot of gray areas that naturally some will take advtantage of.

College athletics is a dirty business and there aren't many atheltic that haven't experienced at least some degree of scandal in one or more sports.

 

[Alydar]

I've wondered whether there are AAU coaches who attempt to steer their players to certain schools and if they have an incentive to do so. I have no knowledge of any wrongdoing but it wouldn't be difficult to figure out a way to funnel money to an AAU program without any direct connection to a school. I'm not even sure there is any rule prohibiting an AAU coach from accepting money.

It seems like the whole process of recruiting is done for the most part behind a cloak of darkness as far as the public being involved. There are always the usual reasons given by a recruit when they announce their school. "Perfect fit". "My dream school". But there are some odd things that puzzle me. One for example is the apparent pattern of elite Oregon-based players going to Tennessee. The LV fanbase refers to it as a "pipeline". Russell, Nared and now Westbrook. I am in no way accusing anyone of any wrongdoing but I am at a loss to explain why Tennessee has this apparent attraction for players from one specific area so far from Knoxville while their longtime recruiting strength in Georgia specifically and the rest of the south generally has weakened considerably. I can understand players on the west coast wanting to get away from home but I would think that there are a number of elite college programs from which to choose. And yet they all seem to end up in Knoxville. Again, it may just be that Tenn does a better job than any other program, but if so I would expect to see them having the same success in other areas of the country.

Maybe the whole process of recruiting would be better served if there was more openness on the part of the media. Once in awhile one of the writers covering wcbb drops a hint about an AAU coach having a feud with a wbcc coach but for the most part they keep what they know to themselves. It just reinforces my opinion that journalists in sports are in large part part just public relations specialists for the sports they cover, more concerned with protecting an image than in reporting the truth.

 

[JordyG]

Well, there does seem a bit of "Amen" corner preaching going on here. One cannot coach as many years as Muffet and not witness a host of improprieties. Yet, frankly it seems KnightBridgeAZ has the right of it. Muffet's words weren't the keenest of insights, but nothing she said had the ring of falsehood to me. It would perhaps have been egregious if she'd started making specific accusations without proof. Yeah, her remarks tend to put ND above the fray, but any remarks she'd make under these circumstances would make her seem purer than the field.

 

[cbraarj]

How about offering a father a couple chairs on the bench as an assistant coach while his daughter is being recruited by that school! Sounds like a way to pay the family for the players services.

 

[HuskyNan]

I heard of an incident if a player being offered cash to attend a school but although it was from someone whose knowledge of recruiting was extensive, it was still second hand. But while there's not much money in women's hoops to encourage the extent of cheating as the men's game, there are coaches making 7 figure salaries whose teams are underperforming. These coaches might figure it's a worthwhile investment to encourage a star player to join her team before she ends up on the hot seat. But while it's easy to find lots of flouting of some recruiting rules, like talking to recruits outside of allowable periods, etc, it's hard to find many of outright bribery. I have to think it's a something that rarely happens.

 

[cbraarj]

After being around Connecticut High School Basketball for over 30 years in various ways. Cheating is going on in both boys and girls basketball. Whether it is recruiting a player for a private school and giving them academic scholarships as payments to play ( this does happen ) even if the players grades dont warrant it. I was offered a free ride for 4 years to attend a parochial school to play basketball ( I didnt ). I have seen AAU coaches recruit players from their team to play at different high schools where tuition will be covered for them. I have seen players by themselves or their whole family moved to different districts with mortgage or rent paid for them. The CIAC knows about alot of what I mentioned but look the other way. I know the schools, the coaches, the players and the how. I will not name names because of the kids! The kids were manipulated by adults and to them it made them feel special!

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

In CT, private schools, parochial or the such should not be in the same League/brackets with public HS's as they draw from a wider area than public schools can draw! There should be a private school league and a public school league.
When I coached Wrestling at East Lyme HS, St. Bernards had wrestlers from all over eastern CT and 2 kids from Westerly, RI, I had East Lyme and Salem CT to draw from! Not the same starting points!
And St. Bernards said they never recruit but doesn't the Priest want kids to get a "Catholic Education?" and talk to them about attending that Catholic HS? That's recruiting in my book!
The Day's Mike DiMauro had an article on this about a week ago.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I like Muffet as a coach. She knows her stuff.

But you cannot throw out that statement of hers ala lobbing a grenade and then running away while the fallout causes all others to run around wildly ....

Have to add some meat to it Muffet. Come forth with what you know and let the NCAA investigate.

I could say Notre Dame is a cheating program that breaks many NCAA rules to the detriment of others.... would be terrible if I came hard with that accusation .... but did not want to expound at all. True?

 

[cbraarj]

In CT, private schools, parochial or the such should not be in the same League/brackets with public HS's as they draw from a wider area than public schools can draw! There should be a private school league and a public school league.
When I coached Wrestling at East Lyme HS, St. Bernards had wrestlers from all over eastern CT and 2 kids from Westerly, RI, I had East Lyme and Salem CT to draw from! Not the same starting points!
And St. Bernards said they never recruit but doesn't the Priest want kids to get a "Catholic Education?" and talk to them about attending that Catholic HS? That's recruiting in my book!
The Day's Mike DiMauro had an article on this about a week ago.

Absolutely agree with you about separating private and public schools! If they dont let the kids pick the school they want but if out of district the parents pay tuition and this is for all schools, public and parochial. Time to even the playing field.

 

[mbr33ct]

I've wondered whether there are AAU coaches who attempt to steer their players to certain schools and if they have an incentive to do so. I have no knowledge of any wrongdoing but it wouldn't be difficult to figure out a way to funnel money to an AAU program without any direct connection to a school. I'm not even sure there is any rule prohibiting an AAU coach from accepting money.

It seems like the whole process of recruiting is done for the most part behind a cloak of darkness as far as the public being involved. There are always the usual reasons given by a recruit when they announce their school. "Perfect fit". "My dream school". But there are some odd things that puzzle me. One for example is the apparent pattern of elite Oregon-based players going to Tennessee. The LV fanbase refers to it as a "pipeline". Russell, Nared and now Westbrook. I am in no way accusing anyone of any wrongdoing but I am at a loss to explain why Tennessee has this apparent attraction for players from one specific area so far from Knoxville while their longtime recruiting strength in Georgia specifically and the rest of the south generally has weakened considerably. I can understand players on the west coast wanting to get away from home but I would think that there are a number of elite college programs from which to choose. And yet they all seem to end up in Knoxville. Again, it may just be that Tenn does a better job than any other program, but if so I would expect to see them having the same success in other areas of the country.

Maybe the whole process of recruiting would be better served if there was more openness on the part of the media. Once in awhile one of the writers covering wcbb drops a hint about an AAU coach having a feud with a wbcc coach but for the most part they keep what they know to themselves. It just reinforces my opinion that journalists in sports are in large part part just public relations specialists for the sports they cover, more concerned with protecting an image than in reporting the truth.

This Tenn "pipeline" should never be confused with UConn's "pipeline" to California, with the likes of Taurasi, Crockett, Houston, Englen, KML and recently KLS. (have not gone through rosters prior to Taurasi). In the end it's how you "refine" this crude oil whether it becomes jet fuel or asphalt.

 

[Alydar]

This Tenn "pipeline" should never be confused with UConn's "pipeline" to California, with the likes of Taurasi, Crockett, Houston, Englen, KML and recently KLS. (have not gone through rosters prior to Taurasi). In the end it's how you "refine" this crude oil whether it becomes jet fuel or asphalt.

I can understand players from any region being attracted to an elite and successful program, where ever that program is located. But Russell, Nared and Westbrook are probably the three top players to come out of Oregon and all decided on attending a school whose glory is in the distant past as far as any 17 year old is concerned. While UConn has signed several players from California they have lost out on a number of them too. If we assume that recruits are attracted to any one school in part as a result of things they hear from adult role models, parents, HS coaches, AAU coaches, etc. then when they are attracted to a school over 2000 miles away that isn't in the picture as far as a national title contender and whose head coach has a thin resume in that position it is reasonable to assume that someone in Oregon is doing a good job of talking up the LV's. And it might be just that and there is nothing wrong with it as long as that someone has no ties to Tennessee. And let me be clear. Unlike the fans of Tenn who, when a certain Georgia recruit decided to go north instead of to Knoxville, I am not assuming any cheating. But while there is relatively little money in wcbb coaches for the most part earn more money than they could ever earn outside basketball and assistants who want to be head coaches have to be at least tempted to use any means to sign players, thus gaining a reputation for being a great recruiter. And someone looking to land an assistant's position could be tempted to try and steer a player someplace.

I think the system works pretty well. To make it 100% above board the NCAA would need 1000 investigators.

 

[cabbie191]

I think the system works pretty well. To make it 100% above board the NCAA would need 1000 investigators.

I'm guessing Triad and our other Duke friends would beg to differ, from the perspective that even if the NCAA had 10,000 investigators, there are some favored schools that would get a free ride no matter what their transgressions. And I would be in agreement with them.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Exactly Alydar. If every top recruit out of California picked UConn it would be eye opening. They've gotten some very notable players, but Cali produces a ton of talent and plenty of them stay on the West Coast, or pick other further away schools that are not in Storrs, CT. It's apples and oranges compared to Tennessee and recruiting out of Oregon. While she wasn't as highly regarded as the others they also had Jordan Reynolds recently. Oregon produces relatively few really top notch players and a surprising number of those have become Vols. I certainly hope they don't get class of '20 recruit Cameron Brink.

 

[JellyBean]

So says Notre Dame's McGraw, stated there is "cheating" in recruiting just like the men's game.

It's for these times one wishes she would spell everything out, c'mon Muffet spill the beans...name names!

"Wake-up call" for women’s game?

Oh my goodness. And to think I use to have crazy respect for coach McGraw.

 

[Artifact]

McGraw claims cheating going on in WCBB. I would ask one of the most success recruiter's, over 30 yr's assoc. coach, Chris. Daily. She would know. Would she answer that difficult question ? For various reasons, I would not.

 

[Alydar]

McGraw claims cheating going on in WCBB. I would ask one of the most success recruiter's, over 30 yr's assoc. coach, Chris. Daily. She would know. Would she answer that difficult question ? For various reasons, I would not.

The person to ask is the person who made the claim.