Celts/Heat Dame 7

[traitor71]

Haslem does take cheap shots. Chalmers is another one.


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You are the epitome of the bitter, idiot Knick fan. Spewing nonsense as your team solidifies their status as one of the biggest jokes in the league. It's too bad the rational fans get lumped in with the likes of you.

 

[babysheep]

He was dancing like a damn fool in the locker room with the rest of the misfits.

What an arrogant ! I mean he only just led his team to win the Conference Finals!

And you said you weren't bitter... who are you trying to convince that you aren't, us or yourself?

 

[JaYnYcE]

Well I never said I wasn't bitter.


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[JaYnYcE]

You sound pretty tough calling someone an idiot behind a keyboard. I feel sorry for your parents.

Now, back to the LeBron bashing.


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[babysheep]

So you know, "butthurt" basically means bitter. Regardless of what you call it, it's still pathetic. People like you are the reason I'm a LeBron fan, I can't wait until you fools have nothing left to cling on to hate on LeBron for. You all wish you were LeBron so bad but you're scared of acknowledging it so you try to justify it through bitter hating in some attempt to make yourself feel better.

And yeah, I'm definitely posting like a tough guy.... you should just give up. Before you just sounded like a bitter child, now you just sound like an idiot.

 

[JaYnYcE]

Tough guy, please stop talking about my butt hurting. This is the second time that you have mentioned my butt in a thread. Please stop as you're making me uncomfortable.

Back to LeBron:

LeBron left Cleveland to try and get a ring with 2 other all stars. If he gets one, he got what he wanted. He'll still be weak and not tough enough to get win one for his home state team.

He will always be known by someone that conspired to get the easy championship. He epitomizes this generation, hard work and patience is lost among everything being so easily accesible in this day, why not a championship?


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[babysheep]

Yeah, because LeBron has not worked hard to get to this point in his career.... you really are incredibly dense.

 

[JaYnYcE]

As dense as being a LeBron fan because some people don't buy into his maniacle, self loathing crap? Didn't say you were a fan for basketball reasons, but beacause of what some people think of him. Man, you miss the point. Good day to you, and I hope you find peace.





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[babysheep]

So now LeBron is also a self-loathing maniac.

 

[tzznandrew]

Kobe is slipping now, but he was the closest thing to Jordan I've seen.

This may be true...but only because nobody is really close to him and Kobe plays his position. Kobe was never nearly as good as people have suggested he is. He is an inefficient volume scorer (especially compared to Jordan). Below are their stats, arranged by FG% (just to highlight this). In an era when you could clothesline someone without it being more than a regular foul, Jordan's 10th best shooting performance was better than Kobe's best. Jordan was better, in many cases, by far, than Kobe at every meaningful stat except 3 pt %.

The only years Jordan shot worse than Kobe's best shooting years: the year he broke his leg, the year before he retired a 2nd time, his two years in Washington, and the year he came out of retirement and played fewer than 20 games mid season.

 

[JaYnYcE]

I don't think anyone is saying Kobe was as good as Jordan. To me Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan in the game since he retired. Two both great champions in their own era.


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[21Huskies]

Kobe was never the best player in the NBA for any one season. He's easily the most overrated player of our generation.

 

[21Huskies]

LeBron left Cleveland to try and get a ring with 2 other all stars. If he gets one, he got what he wanted. He'll still be weak and not tough enough to get win one for his home state team.

He will always be known by someone that conspired to get the easy championship. He epitomizes this generation, hard work and patience is lost among everything being so easily accesible in this day, why not a championship?


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You realize KG has to go play with Ray and PP to get his ring too.

Do you think he is less of a player/winner because of that?

 

[tzznandrew]

Kobe was never the best player in the NBA for any one season. He's easily the most overrated player of our generation.

This is exactly how I feel. He was a great player (and is still very good), but he was always made to be something he wasn't, and everyone's desire for the next Jordan anointed him far too early, and he never lived up to it. I've spoken to people who claim he is the second best player ever. That is absurd.

I don't think James will ever get 5 rings, but I think he will retire with a couple and be in a higher echelon of players than Kobe (barring injury).

 

[rman726]

They had no answer for Lebron James, period. I'm not sure any team in this league does if he really wants to dominate. The guy is, even beyond Michael Jordan, the single most gifted player to see the NBA court in almost anyones lifetime. He may not have the same intangibles as an MJ as far as will to win, but my god, the guy looks like an immortal on the basketball court. Between size, athletecism, strength, he may be a one in a 100 year type of player. He's a gladiator out there. His treatment is generally unfair, expectations are unreal.

Now it's a team sport and as far as that goes, the Thunder are a better team top to bottom. They cover just about every point needed on a basketball team - scoring, big bodies, defense, chemistry. They have role fillers all over the place whereas the Heat are 3 guys and a bunch of randoms. It's going to be interesting to see how the matchups take shape and who they put on James. Do they throw the smaller defender on him, a Sefalosha, or an Ibaka? Who defends Durant? A fun entertaining series with loads of talent.

I didn't hold out much hope for the Celts - their chance to win this thing was in game 6 on crowd adrenaline and when an old team like that lays an egg in their chance to tie off an improbably series on their home court because they looked tired/lifeless, it didn't seem like it was going to get much better in a game 7 away. Nice season, time to rebuild, unless they're content with semi's max for a year or two more.

I think someone with a quality inside game can stop him. KG of old could have at least slowed him down and made him think twice about going into the paint. Hell, that was why the Celtics have been decently successful against the Heat the last two years. He has an okay midrange, but it's certainly nothing special. With MJ, if you didn't let him drive, he'd pull the type of move that Kemba made against Pitt in the BET. "No drive? Fine, I'll just make you look silly as I nail the fadeaway." But he'd do that consistently, and against even the great NBA defenders. I just don't see that from Lebron. If you take away his ability to drive, he'll look dumbfounded, and put up a crappy fadeaway.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Look at the Cavs teams LeBron carried to the playoffs and once to the final. Seriously, look at those rosters. Jordan was better but LeBron only halfway into his career. At the age of 27 Jordan didn't have any rings either. How did that turn out?

 

[JaYnYcE]

You realize KG has to go play with Ray and PP to get his ring too.

Do you think he is less of a player/winner because of that?

It depends, how was KG acquired by the Celtics?


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[JaYnYcE]

Jordan had 3 rings by his 9th season. LeBron has 0 rings in 9 seasons.


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[MilliniumPrince]

In a trade he had to ok before it happened. He and Ray had to ok their trade/signing to play together. How is that different from LeBron and Bosh?

So LeBron was weak for going to Miami. How many rings did MJ win without Pollen and Rodmans/Grant? Magic without Kareem and Worthy? Bird without Chalet and Parrish? KG without Ray and Paula? But LeBron was weak for leaving Cleveland lol

 

[Frank Ivy]

JaYn - your raging, lusty hatred of LBJ is quite impressive. You can actually be quoted as saying that you had a problem with Lebron celebrating wildly in the locker room. That's impressive.

Fact is, LBJ is 4 games away from his 1st ring. He may or may not make it happen.

As far as I'm concerned, his years in Cleveland were wasted. It's too bad he got in such a long term deal with them.

Last year he goes to the finals for the second time. At age 26. Jordan didn't reach the finals until 27 or 28. He carried a pathetic Cleveland team on his back several times.

This year he's poised to win it. If he does, he'll be ahead of Jordan. By a lot. He's already got 3 MVPs. Check my math, but Jordan only had one at this point in his career.g

Point is, you got a wicked for this guy and you can't back it with a side by side comparison.

There's some guy out there 30 years older than you, JaYnTeRaNrS, and he was heard saying, about when Jordan was 27, "this guy is nowhere near as good as Larry Bird or Jerry West. He doesn't have any rings."

It makes no sense making career comparisons between a retired guy and a guy who is just entering the prime of his career.

 

[JaYnYcE]

JaYn - your raging, lusty hatred of LBJ is quite impressive. You can actually be quoted as saying that you had a problem with Lebron celebrating wildly in the locker room. That's impressive.

Fact is, LBJ is 4 games away from his 1st ring. He may or may not make it happen.

As far as I'm concerned, his years in Cleveland were wasted. It's too bad he got in such a long term deal with them.

Last year he goes to the finals for the second time. At age 26. Jordan didn't reach the finals until 27 or 28. He carried a pathetic Cleveland team on his back several times.

This year he's poised to win it. If he does, he'll be ahead of Jordan. By a lot. He's already got 3 MVPs. Check my math, but Jordan only had one at this point in his career.g

Point is, you got a wicked for this guy and you can't back it with a side by side comparison.

There's some guy out there 30 years older than you, JaYnTeRaNrS, and he was heard saying, about when Jordan was 27, "this guy is nowhere near as good as Larry Bird or Jerry West. He doesn't have any rings."

It makes no sense making career comparisons between a retired guy and a guy who is just entering the prime of his career.

Jordan was at the end of a 3peat by his ninth year.


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[21Huskies]

The fact that your perception of the guys success as a player comes down to whether his team wins 4 more games is hysterical. He could shoot 35% and play like shit but if somehow they 'Win a ring' his career is validated to you. if he goes for 40 10 & 10 over the series but they lose, he isn't cutting it for you

Step out of the fairy tale, soap opera, subjective world of 'guys having IT' and guys being CHOKERS and all of the rest of those absurd, media created, lazy analysis and just think about how absurd it is.

The game is nothing more than a big math problem (as absurd as that sounds). If you don't have enough quality and efficient individual efforts than your team doesn't win. It's really that simple. It's why your Knicks suck so bad cause you have one of the worst players in the league in terms of helping your team win(Melo)... High usage/low efficiency players kill your chances to win while a guy like Lebron who is high usage and incredibly efficient is the most useful player in terms of winning

 

[tzznandrew]

JaYn - your raging, lusty hatred of LBJ is quite impressive. You can actually be quoted as saying that you had a problem with Lebron celebrating wildly in the locker room. That's impressive.

Fact is, LBJ is 4 games away from his 1st ring. He may or may not make it happen.

As far as I'm concerned, his years in Cleveland were wasted. It's too bad he got in such a long term deal with them.

Last year he goes to the finals for the second time. At age 26. Jordan didn't reach the finals until 27 or 28. He carried a pathetic Cleveland team on his back several times.

This year he's poised to win it. If he does, he'll be ahead of Jordan. By a lot. He's already got 3 MVPs. Check my math, but Jordan only had one at this point in his career.g

Point is, you got a wicked for this guy and you can't back it with a side by side comparison.

There's some guy out there 30 years older than you, JaYnTeRaNrS, and he was heard saying, about when Jordan was 27, "this guy is nowhere near as good as Larry Bird or Jerry West. He doesn't have any rings."

It makes no sense making career comparisons between a retired guy and a guy who is just entering the prime of his career.

I think that, if someone claimed someone was better than Jordan (at least at the 2-guard) 9 years in, they'd be pretty stupid. By 9 years in, he had pretty much established himself as the best player ever.

Through their first 9 years:

Lebron: 27.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg, 3.3 tpg, 48.3 FG%, 33.1 3P%, 74.6 FT%
In playoffs: 28.5ppg, 8.6 rpb, 6.7 apg, 3.5 tpg, 46.9 FG%, 31.6 3P%, 74.1 FT%
Awards:
8 All Star Game Appearances
2003-04 ROY
05-06 AS Game MVP
07-08 AS Game MVP
08-09 MVP
09-10 MVP
11-12 MVP
1 Time Scoring Champ
6 Time All-NBA First Team
1 Time All-NBA Second Team
4 Time NBA All-Defense Team
3 Time Conference Champion

Jordan: 32.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.9 apg, 3.0 tpg, 51.6 FG%, 30.1 3P%, 84.6 FT%
In playoffs: 34.7 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 6.6 apg, 3.3 tpg, 50.1 FG%, 35.2 3P%, 83.8 FT%
Awards*:
9 All Star Game Appearances
84-85 ROY
87-88 AS Game MVP
87-88 MVP
90-91 MVP
91-92 MVP
87-88 Defensive POY
90-91 NBA Finals MVP
91-92 NBA Finals MVP
92-93 NBA Finals MVP
7 Time All-NBA First Team
1 Time All-NBA Second Team
6 Time NBA All-Defense Team
7 Time Scoring Champ
3 Time Conference Champion
3 Time NBA Champion

* Lost most of 85-86 to a broken leg

 

[21Huskies]

He's not more efficient than MJ but he's been near that level, which no one else can claim in terms of efficient production. MJ was a better scorer, Lebron the better rebounder/passer. Lebron should have 5 MVPs.

MJ is still clearly 1, I'm comfortable w Lebron at 2.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I'm not about to get into the MJ vs LBJ debate but anyone who believes that Jordan was the best player ever (especially after nine years in the NBA) is far too dependent on ESPN/Nike for his information and doesn't realize that the game was played before 1984.

 

[tzznandrew]

He's not more efficient than MJ but he's been near that level, which no one else can claim in terms of efficient production. MJ was a better scorer, Lebron the better rebounder/passer. Lebron should have 5 MVPs.

MJ is still clearly 1, I'm comfortable w Lebron at 2.

For me, Lebron needs to do more before he's #2. But his best years are far better than Kobe's best years, and he's been the best player in the generation after Jordan (a generation with Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, and Kobe as all-time greats in it, and with Nowitski, Nash, Kidd, and Wade right behind them). The NBA has a lot of talent, and Lebron is great.

If they win the title this year (and I actually think they might), people may finally start appreciating how good he is.

 

[RuffRuff]

Kobe is without question one part volume guy - good players should not make you feel like you're watching a ball hog. He feels that way. No question the guy is a great player, but I cannot bucket him in that 1% elite, which is what this conversation is. What he has is a killer instinct and ability to turn it on when it counts. The intangibles needed to win the big ones.

I'm not saying Lebron is MJ when it comes to full package NBA basketball player. What I'm saying is that if you threw the two of them into a combine and let scouts judge their physical abilities and skills, Lebron wins out and I'm not sure it's close. Lebron is bigger, stronger, more physical, just as quick and plays even higher above the rim. He isn't the jump shooter that MJ was, but he's not that far off. He is a better rebounder and passer. What he doesn't have are the leadership traits, the hatred of losing that MJ had. MJ may have been the best "competitor" we've ever seen - Lebron isn't wired that way and that's where he gets all the criticism, people want the guy to be the next MJ. Kobe has much more of that than Lebron has, but Lebron is absolutely the more gifted physical specimen when it comes to talent.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm not about to get into the MJ vs LBJ debate but anyone who believes that Jordan was the best player ever (especially after nine years in the NBA) is far too dependent on ESPN/Nike for his information and doesn't realize that the game was played before 1984.

Can you suggest someone who is better?

I think he is right ahead of Bird and Magic.

I think somewhere in his stratosphere should be included: Russell, Baylor (who when healthy was absurd), Robertson, Abdul-Jabbar (who was awesome and had great longevity), Chamberlain. I may be missing a player (hopefully not an embarrassingly good one), but there's no statistical measure by which he is not the best ever.

In his years, Jordan has the highest PPG Average, is tied for second most MVPs with Russel (Abdul-Jabbar with the most), but he lost two years in his peak. Every year he played a full season from 1986 through 1998 he was the scoring champion. In that same period he has 6 NBA titles and 6 NBA Finals MVPs (the latter is the most ever).

 

[21Huskies]

I think its silly we're talking about how much of a competitor a guy is or isn't ... We have no clue how badly they 'want it'. All we have to go by is their production, everything else is opinion and nonsense. Lebron said he locked himself in his house for a month after they lost the finals last year and didn't talk to anyone and just worked on his game. I'm not saying he wants it more or less than any other player but to make claims about how hes wired is just falling sucker to the media/shoe company soap opera story they try to portray.

For being 'wired' and a 'killer' Kobe has worse 4th quarter 'clutch time' stats than Lebron in games within 5 points in the 4th q in the final 5 min. We see a few games of inexplainable play from Lebron and our perceptions lead us to conclusions that aren't necessarily true.

 

[21Huskies]

MJ shot 54% and scored 35 ppg while putting up high single digit rebounds and assists in some of his best seasons... Nobody else has ever used the ball as efficiently as he has, especially from the guard position.

To say they didn't watch before 84 is two sided. Before 84 the game was different. Players weren't nearly as above the rim or nearly as big. For example Bill Russell was the same size as Paul George... The eras aren't really comparable