Celts/Heat Dame 7

[JaYnYcE]

JaYn - your raging, lusty hatred of LBJ is quite impressive. You can actually be quoted as saying that you had a problem with Lebron celebrating wildly in the locker room. That's impressive.

Fact is, LBJ is 4 games away from his 1st ring. He may or may not make it happen.

As far as I'm concerned, his years in Cleveland were wasted. It's too bad he got in such a long term deal with them.

Last year he goes to the finals for the second time. At age 26. Jordan didn't reach the finals until 27 or 28. He carried a pathetic Cleveland team on his back several times.

This year he's poised to win it. If he does, he'll be ahead of Jordan. By a lot. He's already got 3 MVPs. Check my math, but Jordan only had one at this point in his career.g

Point is, you got a wicked for this guy and you can't back it with a side by side comparison.

There's some guy out there 30 years older than you, JaYnTeRaNrS, and he was heard saying, about when Jordan was 27, "this guy is nowhere near as good as Larry Bird or Jerry West. He doesn't have any rings."

It makes no sense making career comparisons between a retired guy and a guy who is just entering the prime of his career.

Jordan was at the end of a 3peat by his ninth year.


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[21Huskies]

The fact that your perception of the guys success as a player comes down to whether his team wins 4 more games is hysterical. He could shoot 35% and play like but if somehow they 'Win a ring' his career is validated to you. if he goes for 40 10 & 10 over the series but they lose, he isn't cutting it for you

Step out of the fairy tale, soap opera, subjective world of 'guys having IT' and guys being CHOKERS and all of the rest of those absurd, media created, lazy analysis and just think about how absurd it is.

The game is nothing more than a big math problem (as absurd as that sounds). If you don't have enough quality and efficient individual efforts than your team doesn't win. It's really that simple. It's why your Knicks suck so bad cause you have one of the worst players in the league in terms of helping your team win(Melo)... High usage/low efficiency players kill your chances to win while a guy like Lebron who is high usage and incredibly efficient is the most useful player in terms of winning

 

[tzznandrew]

JaYn - your raging, lusty hatred of LBJ is quite impressive. You can actually be quoted as saying that you had a problem with Lebron celebrating wildly in the locker room. That's impressive.

Fact is, LBJ is 4 games away from his 1st ring. He may or may not make it happen.

As far as I'm concerned, his years in Cleveland were wasted. It's too bad he got in such a long term deal with them.

Last year he goes to the finals for the second time. At age 26. Jordan didn't reach the finals until 27 or 28. He carried a pathetic Cleveland team on his back several times.

This year he's poised to win it. If he does, he'll be ahead of Jordan. By a lot. He's already got 3 MVPs. Check my math, but Jordan only had one at this point in his career.g

Point is, you got a wicked for this guy and you can't back it with a side by side comparison.

There's some guy out there 30 years older than you, JaYnTeRaNrS, and he was heard saying, about when Jordan was 27, "this guy is nowhere near as good as Larry Bird or Jerry West. He doesn't have any rings."

It makes no sense making career comparisons between a retired guy and a guy who is just entering the prime of his career.

I think that, if someone claimed someone was better than Jordan (at least at the 2-guard) 9 years in, they'd be pretty stupid. By 9 years in, he had pretty much established himself as the best player ever.

Through their first 9 years:

Lebron: 27.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg, 3.3 tpg, 48.3 FG%, 33.1 3P%, 74.6 FT%
In playoffs: 28.5ppg, 8.6 rpb, 6.7 apg, 3.5 tpg, 46.9 FG%, 31.6 3P%, 74.1 FT%
Awards:
8 All Star Game Appearances
2003-04 ROY
05-06 AS Game MVP
07-08 AS Game MVP
08-09 MVP
09-10 MVP
11-12 MVP
1 Time Scoring Champ
6 Time All-NBA First Team
1 Time All-NBA Second Team
4 Time NBA All-Defense Team
3 Time Conference Champion

Jordan: 32.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.9 apg, 3.0 tpg, 51.6 FG%, 30.1 3P%, 84.6 FT%
In playoffs: 34.7 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 6.6 apg, 3.3 tpg, 50.1 FG%, 35.2 3P%, 83.8 FT%
Awards*:
9 All Star Game Appearances
84-85 ROY
87-88 AS Game MVP
87-88 MVP
90-91 MVP
91-92 MVP
87-88 Defensive POY
90-91 NBA Finals MVP
91-92 NBA Finals MVP
92-93 NBA Finals MVP
7 Time All-NBA First Team
1 Time All-NBA Second Team
6 Time NBA All-Defense Team
7 Time Scoring Champ
3 Time Conference Champion
3 Time NBA Champion

* Lost most of 85-86 to a broken leg

 

[21Huskies]

He's not more efficient than MJ but he's been near that level, which no one else can claim in terms of efficient production. MJ was a better scorer, Lebron the better rebounder/passer. Lebron should have 5 MVPs.

MJ is still clearly 1, I'm comfortable w Lebron at 2.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I'm not about to get into the MJ vs LBJ debate but anyone who believes that Jordan was the best player ever (especially after nine years in the NBA) is far too dependent on ESPN/Nike for his information and doesn't realize that the game was played before 1984.

 

[tzznandrew]

He's not more efficient than MJ but he's been near that level, which no one else can claim in terms of efficient production. MJ was a better scorer, Lebron the better rebounder/passer. Lebron should have 5 MVPs.

MJ is still clearly 1, I'm comfortable w Lebron at 2.

For me, Lebron needs to do more before he's #2. But his best years are far better than Kobe's best years, and he's been the best player in the generation after Jordan (a generation with Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, and Kobe as all-time greats in it, and with Nowitski, Nash, Kidd, and Wade right behind them). The NBA has a lot of talent, and Lebron is great.

If they win the title this year (and I actually think they might), people may finally start appreciating how good he is.

 

[RuffRuff]

Kobe is without question one part volume guy - good players should not make you feel like you're watching a ball hog. He feels that way. No question the guy is a great player, but I cannot bucket him in that 1% elite, which is what this conversation is. What he has is a killer instinct and ability to turn it on when it counts. The intangibles needed to win the big ones.

I'm not saying Lebron is MJ when it comes to full package NBA basketball player. What I'm saying is that if you threw the two of them into a combine and let scouts judge their physical abilities and skills, Lebron wins out and I'm not sure it's close. Lebron is bigger, stronger, more physical, just as quick and plays even higher above the rim. He isn't the jump shooter that MJ was, but he's not that far off. He is a better rebounder and passer. What he doesn't have are the leadership traits, the hatred of losing that MJ had. MJ may have been the best "competitor" we've ever seen - Lebron isn't wired that way and that's where he gets all the criticism, people want the guy to be the next MJ. Kobe has much more of that than Lebron has, but Lebron is absolutely the more gifted physical specimen when it comes to talent.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm not about to get into the MJ vs LBJ debate but anyone who believes that Jordan was the best player ever (especially after nine years in the NBA) is far too dependent on ESPN/Nike for his information and doesn't realize that the game was played before 1984.

Can you suggest someone who is better?

I think he is right ahead of Bird and Magic.

I think somewhere in his stratosphere should be included: Russell, Baylor (who when healthy was absurd), Robertson, Abdul-Jabbar (who was awesome and had great longevity), Chamberlain. I may be missing a player (hopefully not an embarrassingly good one), but there's no statistical measure by which he is not the best ever.

In his years, Jordan has the highest PPG Average, is tied for second most MVPs with Russel (Abdul-Jabbar with the most), but he lost two years in his peak. Every year he played a full season from 1986 through 1998 he was the scoring champion. In that same period he has 6 NBA titles and 6 NBA Finals MVPs (the latter is the most ever).

 

[21Huskies]

I think its silly we're talking about how much of a competitor a guy is or isn't ... We have no clue how badly they 'want it'. All we have to go by is their production, everything else is opinion and nonsense. Lebron said he locked himself in his house for a month after they lost the finals last year and didn't talk to anyone and just worked on his game. I'm not saying he wants it more or less than any other player but to make claims about how hes wired is just falling sucker to the media/shoe company soap opera story they try to portray.

For being 'wired' and a 'killer' Kobe has worse 4th quarter 'clutch time' stats than Lebron in games within 5 points in the 4th q in the final 5 min. We see a few games of inexplainable play from Lebron and our perceptions lead us to conclusions that aren't necessarily true.

 

[21Huskies]

MJ shot 54% and scored 35 ppg while putting up high single digit rebounds and assists in some of his best seasons... Nobody else has ever used the ball as efficiently as he has, especially from the guard position.

To say they didn't watch before 84 is two sided. Before 84 the game was different. Players weren't nearly as above the rim or nearly as big. For example Bill Russell was the same size as Paul George... The eras aren't really comparable

 

[Frank Ivy]

Jordan was at the end of a 3peat by his ninth year.

You keep focusing on "years in the league." That's very weak, and that's not nearly as informative as age, because age is a direct reflection of experience. It works for your argument, but it's a cop out, because it ignores that . . . Jordan played 3 years at North Carolina. You are, essentially, discounting that time. You shouldn't do that.

Lebron's 3 years at North Carolina were played in Cleveland.

Age is a much better measure, because age directly reflects experience and how much game the guy has in him.

 

[Frank Ivy]

I think that, if someone claimed someone was better than Jordan (at least at the 2-guard) 9 years in, they'd be pretty stupid.

Yeah, agreed.

But nobody's making that argument, and, as noted above, age is a much better analysis tool than "years in the league."

It should be obvious why, but, to keep it in perspective, Jordan didn't do squat before age 27 to put him in the GOAT category. Right?

Why? Many reasons. Crappy teams. He kept improving his game. Maturity. Desire built up.

Look at Lebron - he's not on a better team. He's markedly improved parts of his game that were weaker. He's showing more maturity. He seems to want it more.

I'm saying this - Jordan at Lebron's age had NOT done as much as Lebron. PERIOD.

Argue that point if you want to, but stop arguing a point I didn't make.

In short, Lebron has 3 times more MVP awards than Jordan did at his age.

 

[Frank Ivy]

MJ shot 54% and scored 35 ppg while putting up high single digit rebounds and assists in some of his best seasons...

Yeah sorry. Jordan got every call.
No player before or since has had the benefit of the whistle like Jordan had.
Jordan was a great player, no doubt in any reasonable person's mind.
But Jordan became the NBA. Today, the league is much more star oriented.
Back then, there was a distinct dearth of stars.
Magic and Bird and Thomas were fading.
Who was left? Malone?
The NBA needed MJ, and MJ single handedly created the modern NBA.

But I've been watching Lebron, and he's just better. He's got more natural talent and he has more skills.

Whether LeBron ends up with a better resume is yet to be seen.

You know - I was a Lebron basher (as a douchie dude) until recently. The guy is showing a new side. What this thread has made clear to me is that the "old guard" is never going to give the guy a fair shake. If he ends up with 7 titles and 6 MVPs, the same chumps who are posting in this thread that Lebron "isn't even close" to MJ will be posting the same crap.

So I'm a convert. I'm going to cheer for the dude for the sole purpose of hoping he dethrones Jordan.

 

[JaYnYcE]

Yeah sorry. Jordan got every call.
No player before or since has had the benefit of the whistle like Jordan had.
Jordan was a great player, no doubt in any reasonable person's mind.
But Jordan became the NBA. Today, the league is much more star oriented.
Back then, there was a distinct dearth of stars.
Magic and Bird and Thomas were fading.
Who was left? Malone?
The NBA needed MJ, and MJ single handedly created the modern NBA.

But I've been watching Lebron, and he's just better. He's got more natural talent and he has more skills.

Whether LeBron ends up with a better resume is yet to be seen.

You know - I was a Lebron basher (as a douchie dude) until recently. The guy is showing a new side. What this thread has made clear to me is that the "old guard" is never going to give the guy a fair shake. If he ends up with 7 titles and 6 MVPs, the same chumps who are posting in this thread that Lebron "isn't even close" to MJ will be posting the same crap.

So I'm a convert. I'm going to cheer for the dude for the sole purpose of hoping he dethrones Jordan.

Good for you, I wish you all the best.

MJ will always be better


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[FfldCntyFan]

Can you suggest someone who is better?

I think he is right ahead of Bird and Magic.

I think somewhere in his stratosphere should be included: Russell, Baylor (who when healthy was absurd), Robertson, Abdul-Jabbar (who was awesome and had great longevity), Chamberlain. I may be missing a player (hopefully not an embarrassingly good one), but there's no statistical measure by which he is not the best ever.

In his years, Jordan has the highest PPG Average, is tied for second most MVPs with Russel (Abdul-Jabbar with the most), but he lost two years in his peak. Every year he played a full season from 1986 through 1998 he was the scoring champion. In that same period he has 6 NBA titles and 6 NBA Finals MVPs (the latter is the most ever).

Chamberlain still has the highest average (when rounded he and Jordan are tied for #1) yet over the last six years of his career Wilt was not used as a scorer (and for the record did lead the league in assists one season and averaged double digit assists a few other seasons). If scoring this is the yardstick, MJ can't hold a candle to Wilt.

If championships is the yardstick, Russell has is all over MJ as even if you were to assume titles in '93-'94 & '94-'95 (when MJ decided to play baseball) he would only have tied Bill's longest streak and would have fallen shy on the titles Bill won before and after the eight year run.

In order to attempt to compare MJ with Baylor or Oscar, you would need to somehow determine how the two players from the 1960's would have fared in a watered down league (three times as many teams in the 90's) where one player (due to marketing philosophy and officiating) is allowed to dominate an entire game (with an assist from the officials). You can also throw in a three point line that MJ was able to benefit from that none of the others (or Jerry West from that era) had.

MJ was a great player, don't misinterpret that but he also was the beneficiary of Nike, ESPN and the NBA all going out of their way to promote him to a level well beyond anything he really did accomplish. Give me a starting lineup of Wilt, Russell, Baylor, Oscar and West, players like Jerry Lucas, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Lenny Wilkens, John Havlicek and Hal Greer on the bench (all players who played at least eight seasons in the 1960's) and I'll put that against any all star lineup from any era, including the 1992 dream team.

 

[JaYnYcE]

You keep focusing on "years in the league." That's very weak, and that's not nearly as informative as age, because age is a direct reflection of experience. It works for your argument, but it's a cop out, because it ignores that . . . Jordan played 3 years at North Carolina. You are, essentially, discounting that time. You shouldn't do that.

Lebron's 3 years at North Carolina were played in Cleveland.

Age is a much better measure, because age directly reflects experience and how much game the guy has in him.

Yes it is a good measure. No one told LeBron to go straight to the NBA. Clearly he was awesome enough to make the jump to the NBA and no one ever questions that decision. 9 professional years in the NBA, MJ was the best player on the planet who had completed a 3 peat. Experience rules out age.


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[Huskies4ever]

You must have him confused with some other cheap shot guy. Haslem is definitely not known for that.

traitor, I've seen him play since his rookie year in the league, and the teams with Zo, Shaq, and DWade, he did a lot of cheap shot elbows, pushing and shoving, etc. These are the things that you expect from a power forward on a Pat Riley coached team. I've seen him pick up plenty of techs and flagrants. He has a much lesser role now, especially with Bosh on the team.

 

[21Huskies]

If the 1960s all stars you mentioned played the dream team or any all star team of today, they'd lose 85 of 100 games and that's being generous.

I'm not some fair weather nba fan either, I have studied the game and seen tapes from all eras. The game simply isn't comparable. As I said earlier Bill Russell was the same size as Paul George. If Shaq in his prime was going up against him, he'd put up video game numbers. He'd have 100 pounds and at least 3 inches on him. No matter how great,smart,savvy Russell was, he simply wouldnt have physically been able to guard him.

Watch a game tape of a 60's game. It's no fault of those players (they were obviously great at the time) but the game has progressed so far that it's a pointless effort to debate between era's like that. We have a much larger base of players to pick from, better training, better technology to study, better understanding of statistical analysis, guys actually play defense now,etc etc etc. the game is just different

MJ lives up to all the hype... I actually think his numbers were underrated, if that's even possible. Like an earlier poster said, some of his least efficient seasons were more efficient than Kobe's best seasons

 

[Huskies4ever]

You realize KG has to go play with Ray and PP to get his ring too.

Do you think he is less of a player/winner because of that?

They (Garnett and Allen) were traded, moves orchestrated by Danny Ainge. Lebron joined a team with a top 5-10 player (Wade) and a top 15 player (Bosh). From what I've read, Cleveland management found out that Lebron was leaving by watching The Decision. That's pretty crappy. I'm not saying what I think about Lebron personally, but that move, where HE chose to diss his current (hometown) team to JOIN two allstars on one team is different than two guys being traded. It has been mentioned how Lebron, Wade, and Bosh all conspired this while playing for Team USA. This is a big part of why James receives so much criticism and people root against him. That and proclaiming, "Not one, not two, not three, not four........."

 

[msgordon]

MJ was a great player, don't misinterpret that but he also was the beneficiary of Nike, ESPN and the NBA all going out of their way to promote him to a level well beyond anything he really did accomplish. .

this is a pretty bizarre statement

 

[Huskies4ever]

MJ was a great player, don't misinterpret that but he also was the beneficiary of Nike, ESPN and the NBA all going out of their way to promote him to a level well beyond anything he really did accomplish. Give me a starting lineup of Wilt, Russell, Baylor, Oscar and West, players like Jerry Lucas, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Lenny Wilkens, John Havlicek and Hal Greer on the bench (all players who played at least eight seasons in the 1960's) and I'll put that against any all star lineup from any era, including the 1992 dream team.

FfldCntyFan, you are a great poster, and I respect your opinion greatly. I've agreed with many of your posts for many years (as a lurker). I understand some of what you are saying. That said, Nike, ESPN, Gatorade, and the NBA were all the beneficiaries of MJ. He single-handedly changed the league for better or worse. No team could compete with the Dream Team (best ever) - by the way there is a special coming up on NBATV about the Dream Team, being the 20th anniversary. And it is so hard to compare eras. You think Jerry West could guard MJ? Conversely, I bet MJ could because he was an unbelievably complete payer , who was just as amazing defensively. He was also ultra competitive. Guys today are so much bigger, stronger, and more athletic overall, than they were in the '60's. Back then, these type of players were fewer and farther between. Also, there were a lot less teams, so there were less of these players to spread around. Havlicek is one of the best to ever play the game. He's not better than MJ.

 

[JaYnYcE]

The fact that your perception of the guys success as a player comes down to whether his team wins 4 more games is hysterical. He could shoot 35% and play like **** but if somehow they 'Win a ring' his career is validated to you. if he goes for 40 10 & 10 over the series but they lose, he isn't cutting it for you

Step out of the fairy tale, soap opera, subjective world of 'guys having IT' and guys being CHOKERS and all of the rest of those absurd, media created, lazy analysis and just think about how absurd it is.

The game is nothing more than a big math problem (as absurd as that sounds). If you don't have enough quality and efficient individual efforts than your team doesn't win. It's really that simple. It's why your Knicks suck so bad cause you have one of the worst players in the league in terms of helping your team win(Melo)... High usage/low efficiency players kill your chances to win while a guy like Lebron who is high usage and incredibly efficient is the most useful player in terms of winning

Kobe has 5 rings, and 2 finals MVPs.


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[JaYnYcE]

In a trade he had to ok before it happened. He and Ray had to ok their trade/signing to play together. How is that different from LeBron and Bosh?

So LeBron was weak for going to Miami. How many rings did MJ win without Pollen and Rodmans/Grant? Magic without Kareem and Worthy? Bird without Chalet and Parrish? KG without Ray and Paula? But LeBron was weak for leaving Cleveland lol

No other back to back MVP has left a team to join two other all stars. You're comparing the best player on the planet to Grant/Rodman. Stop it.


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[Huskies4ever]

Kobe has 5 rings, and 2 finals MVPs.


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Yeah, I don't get how Kobe is overrated? I thought he was the beneficiary of Shaq when he won his first three titles, but he won championships with Gasol, Artest, Bynum, and of course, Phil Jackson ( who, according to some posters here, is only a good coach because of MJ, Pippen, Shaq, and Kobe). Kobe is a fierce competitor, and is the closest thing to MJ that we have seen. He will be an all-time great (5-15) when his career is over. 5 championships. Don't know how any of this is overrated.

 

[Huskies4ever]

In a trade he had to ok before it happened. He and Ray had to ok their trade/signing to play together. How is that different from LeBron and Bosh?

So LeBron was weak for going to Miami. How many rings did MJ win without Pollen and Rodmans/Grant? Magic without Kareem and Worthy? Bird without Chalet and Parrish? KG without Ray and Paula? But LeBron was weak for leaving Cleveland lol

How many players nix their trades? Not many. KG and Allen didn't ask to be traded, they were told that they weren't wanted anymore, they were being shipped from their teams. There's a big difference here.