Boston Globe goes after UMass football

[Marty Jackson]

One has to accept reality. UConn has been to the Sweet 16 13 times in 26 years. That's 50% of the Elite 8 rounds played since 1990 have included the Huskies. We've been to 4 Final Fours, won 3 titles and been to 9 elite 8s in 26 years. In more than a third of the tournaments played since 1990 UConn has been to the Elite 8. Those Mighty Gonzaga Zags you guys are so happy to reference as why we ought not be worried...1 Elite 8 in that time. Then Memphis Tigers, another really great example of a tough mid-major...over the same period, they have six sweet 16s and 4 Elite 8s and 1 Final Four(though the 2008 Final Four has been vacated by the NCAA). Does it show that it is possible? Sure, but it is much tougher than when you are in a power conference. I won't even embarrass you by comparing George Mason or VCU with UConn's post season performance. I hope that UConn can be the exception, and I wish it were likely. Unfortunately there is not very much evidence to suggest that it is.

Why would you think VCU, George Mason, or Gonzaga are comparable to Uconn.
curious, in your search for 'evidence' how many schools did you find that were once the dominate program in the most dominate league only to be left behind in conference realignment? Of that list, how many had an athletic budget in the top 30-40 of all college athletics at $65M+? And then, how many had more than 15+ players in the NBA the past 10 years.
My evidence suggests that no school has been where Uconn is now...

But please, keep calling yourself a fan.

 

[DrG]

FYI, next season, UMass will play three MAC games at McGuirk (with a new press box and FB facility, same seating capacity), and three at Gillette (BC, Colorado and a MAC game).

 

[HuskyHawk]

The last time UMass played a home football game was November 16th so I doubt it was "last Saturday". The last football event on a Saturday at Gillette was the high school state championship games on 12/7.

Makes sense. As I said, all I saw was the jumbotron, and the helmet and jersey were UMass colors. I've driven by UMass games as well, traffic for the HS championship was about the same.

 

[HuskyHawk]

here's the reality... you can't make up 3 generations of foundational fan support in 2 years. as uconn is finding out, it's difficult to do in 10.
marketing, advertising, on-field success, recruiting, and even coaching can't overcome that fact. They can help, but in the end, it will take a generation or two to really build the fanbase. While there is a small core of fans that have followed Uconn for decades, the bigger group I suspect is first generation fans. compare that to the likes of Bama, ND or Texas, you can go back two or three generations and see how the fandom was passed down.

Yes, this is the key for UConn and UMass as well. It's why they need to start a tradition of the students going to and caring about the games, and then, maybe in 20-30 years there will be enough alumni across the state and in CT, RI and NH to be willing to attend and travel to games. For now, they need western MA, later, they might be better served closer to Boston.

UConn gambled a bit with the stadium in E. Hartford, but unlike Amherst to Gillette, it is still relatively close to campus. Still, an on campus stadium (however politically unviable, and logistically inaccessible) would have done more to strengthen the student and future alumni fan base in my opinion. Short term, E Hartford was better. Long term, Horsebarn Hill probably would have been.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

People in eastern MA think the state ends @ Wustah (they only acknowledge western MA when referring to Tanglewood).

When I outside of Boston, I invited a friend and native to go with me to an UConn game down at the Rent and I offered to drive. He grew-up in a small suburb in between Rte 128 and I-495 southwest of the City. I asked to meet me at a hotel off of Rte 9 in Westborough where we would leave his car. I had to give him detailed directions how to get there because he did not know that Westborough existed, even if the town was 20 miles away from him as the crow flies. He’s a good guy; but, typical Hub native in that anything west of I-495 is upstate New York or Ohio to him.

 

[freescooter]

Much as you and I would love to believe that, history tells a different story. As the basketball world became more stratified in the late 80s and 1990s into power conferences, low majors and mid-majors, the folks who got left behind seldom had the same success that they had in earlier times. Look at Louisville. A major power in the 1980s. 4Final Fours in 6 years. Two titles. Then they got shunted off to a mid-major conference. From there they were able to make the occasional run, but took 11 years to get back to an Elite 8. the problems with being in the American are many. But the biggest are that ultimately it will be tougher to recruit guys to play Houston and Tulsa rather than Syracuse and Duke, and given the fairly crappy nature of the league it will impact our seeding in the NCAA Tournament. And seeding is critical to deep runs. 70% of the teams in the Elite 8 between 1985 and 2013 were seeded 3 or higher. So if you end up with a 5 instead of a 2 or a 3 because your RPI is lower, it is MUCH higher to get that deep. A 5 seed doesn't have an "automatic win" in the first round. the 2nd round opponent is much tougher. If you win that, there's a good chance you are the lowest remaining seed in the Regionals. Again, its possible for sure, and teams have done it. Just not that many comparatively. And finally playing weaker competition just makes teams less battle tested. there were usually 10 teams in the Big East who could win on any given night. 4-5 who were toss ups and only a handful who were pretty much automatic wins (Hi Rutgers). Those ratios are backwards in the American. Look, I wish it weren't so. I would love nothing better than to play in the ACC, go head to head with Duke, UNC, Syracuse, and the rest on a weekly basis, win the ACC and go into the tourney as a 1-2 seed every year. Sadly we won't.

 

[Husky25]

When I outside of Boston, I invited a friend and native to go with me to an UConn game down at the Rent and I offered to drive. He grew-up in a small suburb in between Rte 128 and I-495 southwest of the City. I asked to meet me at a hotel off of Rte 9 in Westborough where we would leave his car. I had to give him detailed directions how to get there because he did not know that Westborough existed, even if the town was 20 miles away from him as the crow flies. He’s a good guy; but, typical Hub native in that anything west of I-495 is upstate New York or Ohio to him.

How did he not know where the Sheraton Tara is?

 

[HuskyHawk]

When I outside of Boston, I invited a friend and native to go with me to an UConn game down at the Rent and I offered to drive. He grew-up in a small suburb in between Rte 128 and I-495 southwest of the City. I asked to meet me at a hotel off of Rte 9 in Westborough where we would leave his car. I had to give him detailed directions how to get there because he did not know that Westborough existed, even if the town was 20 miles away from him as the crow flies. He’s a good guy; but, typical Hub native in that anything west of I-495 is upstate New York or Ohio to him.

How long ago was this? My wife used to feel this way, as a South Shore native and later South Boston resident. But now? The growth is mostly along 495. There's no room anyplace else (except South Boston on the waterfront). A lot of people in Boston (including me at one time) commute outward to the 495 ring for work. I suppose I have run into a few townies in Southie or Charlestown, who never drive further than Braintree or Newton, but it's not as common as it once was.

 

[Carl Spackler]

here's the reality... you can't make up 3 generations of foundational fan support in 2 years. as uconn is finding out, it's difficult to do in 10.
marketing, advertising, on-field success, recruiting, and even coaching can't overcome that fact. They can help, but in the end, it will take a generation or two to really build the fanbase. While there is a small core of fans that have followed Uconn for decades, the bigger group I suspect is first generation fans. compare that to the likes of Bama, ND or Texas, you can go back two or three generations and see how the fandom was passed down.

This about sums it all up. UMass is trying to do what UCONN did, (grow it's football program) except they are doing it without any of the support and backing that UCONN had. There is no MinutemanMania in Massachusetts.

When UConn beat UMass in Amherst in 1997, there were less than 3k people in the stands. For sure. I know - I was there. at least a quarter and maybe up to half of that 3k were UConn fans. When we beat UMass at memorial stadium in 1998, which was a great game BTW - there were about 7,000 fans in bleachers, estimate - given the stadium held about double that at capacity. When we lost in 1999 to Don Brown's UMass team in Amherst, it was probably 10k in the stadium in Amherst. UMass has having a really good season.

The fans that made up those crowds, are essentially the diehards that exist for both programs.

Huskymania, and UCONN basketball popularity and the population density of CT are the difference, as well as having an actual stadium that seats 40k within a reasonable drive of Storrs. UMass has none of that.

Those things are the reason we easily jumped up to 35k-40k attendance at home for football in 2003, and that we were able to get 37k+ for an opener with UMass last year? 2 years ago?

Growing that 8,000 or so base from Memorial stadium in 1998, has a little more than doubled in 15 years to 17k that showed up last December.

That's about 1 generation of fans from kids to adults.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

This is multi factored. Competition and attendance and location all matter for basketball. The problem for us is that these factors are related. Playing a bad conference schedule will drive down attendance, particularly when the fan base doesn't know anything about these schools in the league. Low attendance and the loss of games in new York city will also impact recruiting.

This can be improved, but UConn has to be creative and aggressive. Sitting around hoping Tulane gets better is not a winning strategy.

 

[Husky25]

This is multi factored. Competition and attendance and location all matter for basketball. The problem for us is that these factors are related. Playing a bad conference schedule will drive down attendance, particularly when the fan base doesn't know anything about these schools in the league. Low attendance and the loss of games in new York city will also impact recruiting.

This can be improved, but UConn has to be creative and aggressive. Sitting around hoping Tulane gets better is not a winning strategy.

I continue to ask (You never answer, so only the Omniscient One knows why I keep it up...) Why do you think UConn is sitting around hoping anything? You've already stated that you don't have insider knowledge. Why is it you bash the administration at every turn for not doing a job that you have no idea if they are? Others and I have given you numerous examples of the Schools' activities, yet you continue to paint this gloom and doom picture. Do you not think that everyone here knows what is happening over the next 3-5 years? It is what it is, but there is zero reason to think UConn is not being creative or aggressive.

 

[pj]

We need to be rooting for UMass and Temple to at least survive if not succeed. The more UConn looks like it is on an island, the less reason there will be for the Big 10 or ACC to add us.

Not necessarily. If UMass, Buffalo, Temple etc drop football, we'll be the only major football school in the northeast apart from BC, Cuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Maryland, Pitt, Navy, Army. That's 4 Power 5 teams in the Md/NJ/PA region of 29 million people (30 counting DC), and 2 teams in the NY/New England region of 35 million people. It will be an extremely underserved region in college football terms. The rest of the country has a Power-5 team for every 3-4 million people. And out of UConn, Navy, and Army, who is most likely to step up? Once the conferences look for ways to add money, UConn will be the #1 option in the country, and all the more so if more northeastern schools have dropped out of the football race.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

How long ago was this? My wife used to feel this way, as a South Shore native and later South Boston resident. But now? The growth is mostly along 495. There's no room anyplace else (except South Boston on the waterfront). A lot of people in Boston (including me at one time) commute outward to the 495 ring for work. I suppose I have run into a few townies in Southie or Charlestown, who never drive further than Braintree or Newton, but it's not as common as it once was.

Maybe 10 years ago and not, he still has not changed. He’s the only one of 4 guys I used to hang out with a lot (we all started on the same customer service team at the same time) that firmly believes that 1) Boston is way better culturally and job-wise than NYC, and 2) that Boston drivers are not the worst in the country (outside of RI drivers).
It also highlights one of UMass’s many issues. No one in on Beacon Hill gives a crap about what happens outside of 495 for the most part. That is reflected in terms of how UMass Amherst is funded and how poor its sports brand is. Heck, UConn is closer to the Common than UMass Amherst. Plus, UMass Amherst has to deal with the fact that it ranks way behind the pro teams in Boston, plus, BC, BU and Harvard. If UConn is having a good year, the Huskies get more time on Channel 5 than the Minutemen. Plus, UMass Amherst for all intent is now competing for state dollars with UMass Lowell. UMass Lowell has a very politically connected President (Meehan) who has leading an expansion of the school’s sports (going to America East) and academics and that school is only 40 miles from the Common and is reachable by commuter rail.

 

[HartfordHank]

How did he not know where the Sheraton Tara is?

The Sheraton Tara is in Framingham! I think the hotel he was at is the DoubleTree.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Not necessarily. If UMass, Buffalo, Temple etc drop football, we'll be the only major football school in the northeast apart from BC, Cuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Maryland, Pitt, Navy, Army. That's 4 Power 5 teams in the Md/NJ/PA region of 29 million people (30 counting DC), and 2 teams in the NY/New England region of 35 million people. It will be an extremely underserved region in college football terms. The rest of the country has a Power-5 team for every 3-4 million people. And out of UConn, Navy, and Army, who is most likely to step up? Once the conferences look for ways to add money, UConn will be the #1 option in the country, and all the more so if more northeastern schools have dropped out of the football race.

More likely, in that scenario, UConn is the only non-P5, FBS school east of Ohio and south of Virginia. The ACC and Big 10 then freeze us out from scheduling while marketing hard in New York, forcing us to fly 800 miles for each football game. That won't last long before UConn drops football.

The only way UConn gets invited to a major conference is if UConn is thriving on its own. We need local competition to do that.

 

[J187Money]

Uconn is the exception. What other school has won 3 NC's in the past 15 years? Uconn is not defined by the AAC... 'Uconn is in a league of it's own, g-dammit!' here's a new avatar for you.

Henceforth, he shall be known as "Freeyore"...

 

[Colt house75]

.....which brings us after spending way to much time on a school (UMASS) that it's own state won't support to this:
1)UMASS is in deep schittah and going nowhere.
THE BEST THING FOR THE REGION IS:
{There is, I think (9,00 to 10,000) of us UCONN alums in the immediate boston area }
2)UCONN VS. Boston College in a home and home will be the best draw and for Boston College in particular given the press given to Red Sox/Celts/Pats /Bruins and yes even the Yankees.

 

[Husky25]

The Sheraton Tara is in Framingham! I think the hotel he was at is the DoubleTree.

I'm trying to picture where in Westborough a DoubleTree is that is close to 495 interchange and all I can think of is Research Ave./Computer Drive. I don't think it was always there. At least it wasn't always a DoubleTree. I grew up not far from there and I held jobs in my teens up and down route 9 (6 months at McDonalds, a year at Scioletti's Italian Eatery (Since closed), and a summer in the warehouse at Bose). The only other hotel that comes to mind in that area is the Red Roof Inn on the westbound side coming from Southboro .

 

[HuskyHawk]

Maybe 10 years ago and not, he still has not changed. He’s the only one of 4 guys I used to hang out with a lot (we all started on the same customer service team at the same time) that firmly believes that 1) Boston is way better culturally and job-wise than NYC, and 2) that Boston drivers are not the worst in the country (outside of RI drivers).
It also highlights one of UMass’s many issues. No one in on Beacon Hill gives a crap about what happens outside of 495 for the most part. That is reflected in terms of how UMass Amherst is funded and how poor its sports brand is. Heck, UConn is closer to the Common than UMass Amherst. Plus, UMass Amherst has to deal with the fact that it ranks way behind the pro teams in Boston, plus, BC, BU and Harvard. If UConn is having a good year, the Huskies get more time on Channel 5 than the Minutemen. Plus, UMass Amherst for all intent is now competing for state dollars with UMass Lowell. UMass Lowell has a very politically connected President (Meehan) who has leading an expansion of the school’s sports (going to America East) and academics and that school is only 40 miles from the Common and is reachable by commuter rail.

I think this highlights the biggest problem UMass has. Boston has so many schools, it is flooded with college students more than any other city in the country, and none of them go to UMass Amherst. So even the bars in town don't cater to UMass fans or grads to any degree. BC would probably be tops in that regard, but they are overwhelmed by competition as well.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I'm trying to picture where in Westborough a DoubleTree is that is close to 495 interchange and all I can think of is Research Ave./Computer Drive. I don't think it was always there. At least it wasn't always a DoubleTree. I grew up not far from there and I held jobs in my teens up and down route 9 (6 months at McDonalds, a year at Scioletti's Italian Eatery (Since closed), and a summer in the warehouse at Bose). The only other hotel that comes to mind in that area is the Red Roof Inn on the westbound side coming from Southboro .

I do not remember the actual hotel either (maybe the Courtyard?) as it was on the westbound side of Rte 9 in the big corporate park just past I-495. But, at least I knew where Westborough was. He did not and I know for a fact was in Hopkinton a few times playing HS football (Tri-Valley) and as a volunteer at the Boston Marathon start line with me.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I think this highlights the biggest problem UMass has. Boston has so many schools, it is flooded with college students more than any other city in the country, and none of them go to UMass Amherst. So even the bars in town don't cater to UMass fans or grads to any degree. BC would probably be tops in that regard, but they are overwhelmed by competition as well.

I agree. After college, Boston pulls in grads from just about every college in New England on top of those who graduated from a school in Boston itself. Finding a fellow alumni in Boston is like finding a needle in a haystack. The colleges with a strong alumni network based on academics (Harvard, MIT, Brown, Dartmouth, Amherst, etc.) or sports (BC, UConn) have an advantage in marketing, donors, etc. over those that don't. UMass is not particularly strong in either category and basically gets lost in the ocean.

 

[Husky25]

I think this highlights the biggest problem UMass has. Boston has so many schools, it is flooded with college students more than any other city in the country, and none of them go to UMass Amherst. So even the bars in town don't cater to UMass fans or grads to any degree. BC would probably be tops in that regard, but they are overwhelmed by competition as well.

Since the Boston Pro teams started caring again with the Patriots' win 1st SB win (and the Yawkee Trust was forced to sell the Red Sox, NESN and Fenway Park), no one had any time for college sports. By the time 2003 rolled around, one winning season ran into the next and the fact the Sox lost the ALCS only made fans hungrier for 2004 (The A-Rod hot stove situation certainly fanned the flames). Pro baseball runs into Pro football, and by the time the Patriots were done, it's time for spring training again. Things only got worse in 2007-08 when Allen and Garnett came to Boston (along with the Sox winning their 2nd WS in 4 years), and hit a fever pitch in 2011 when the Bruins won. The NBA and NHL playoffs run into June, at which point the casual fan starts all over with the Red Sox.

I don't really blame the Boston Sports fan though. Broadcast journalism doesn't pay anything, , let alone college, any mind outside 128. The high and mighty Jerry Callahan belittles anyone and anything that is not pro sports (or right wing) as unworthy and while NESN is the New England Sports Network, they even gloss over Western MA and Connecticut in their weather reports (they typically give temps for in Boston, Worcester, Providence, Nashua and Portland). The EEI morning show used to make fun or John Meterparel's play-by-play of BC football. It may be all jokes and giggles at the time, but that sinks in to peoples' psyche to a point that they will ignore the broadcast. Even the guy doing the sports flash reported with a tone of amazement (John Risch, I think) when UMass reentered the top 25 a couple weeks ago. The only show that may give Western MA and or CT any lip service at all is Planet Mikey and that is only because Mike Adams is from Manchester.

 

[huskymedic]

From yesterday:

Switch to Top Tier a Costly Decision for UMass Football
http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...top-tier-a-costly-decision-for-umass-foo.aspx

 

[Husky25]

I do not remember the actual hotel either (maybe the Courtyard?) as it was on the westbound side of Rte 9 in the big corporate park just past I-495. But, at least I knew where Westborough was. He did not and I know for a fact was in Hopkinton a few times playing HS football (Tri-Valley) and as a volunteer at the Boston Marathon start line with me.

I played Tri-Valley baseball one summer in Southboro. Our only two loses were to Bellingham. I now know exactly where you are referring to. The corporate park is indeed off of the Research Dr./Computer Dr. exit.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Since the Boston Pro teams started caring again with the Patriots' win 1st SB win (and the Yawkee Trust was forced to sell the Red Sox, NESN and Fenway Park), no one had any time for college sports. By the time 2003 rolled around, one winning season ran into the next and the fact the Sox lost the ALCS only made fans hungrier for 2004 (The A-Rod hot stove situation certainly fanned the flames). Pro baseball runs into Pro football, and by the time the Patriots were done, it's time for spring training again. Things only got worse in 2007-08 when Allen and Garnett came to Boston (along with the Sox winning their 2nd WS in 4 years), and hit a fever pitch in 2011 when the Bruins won. The NBA and NHL playoffs run into June, at which point the casual fan starts all over with the Red Sox.

I don't really blame the Boston Sports fan though. Broadcast journalism doesn't pay anything, , let alone college, any mind outside 128. The high and mighty Jerry Callahan belittles anyone and anything that is not pro sports (or right wing) as unworthy and while NESN is the New England Sports Network, they even gloss over Western MA and Connecticut in their weather reports (they typically give temps for in Boston, Worcester, Providence, Nashua and Portland). The EEI morning show used to make fun or John Meterparel's play-by-play of BC football. It may be all jokes and giggles at the time, but that sinks in to peoples' psyche to a point that they will ignore the broadcast. Even the guy doing the sports flash reported with a tone of amazement (John Risch, I think) when UMass reentered the top 25 a couple weeks ago. The only show that may give Western MA and or CT any lip service at all is Planet Mikey and that is only because Mike Adams is from Manchester.

Mike Adams is from Manchester? Never knew that. I'm from Manchester. He's older and went to Avon Old Farms it seems.

Agree on the psyche. My wife looks at me funny about my interests in college sports. But then my family came to Manchester from Kansas City, and so I became a Big 8 fan as a young kid, and my dad latched on to UConn basketball back in the 70's.

 

[Husky25]

Mike Adams is from Manchester? Never knew that. I'm from Manchester. He's older and went to Avon Old Farms it seems.

Agree on the psyche. My wife looks at me funny about my interests in college sports. But then my family came to Manchester from Kansas City, and so I became a Big 8 fan as a young kid, and my dad latched on to UConn basketball back in the 70's.

He always talks about it. I just assumed...I lived in Manchester for 8 years after College.

 

[SonsOfNutmeg]

UMass needs a geographic rivalry every year with UConn (and we need it too)... Imagine a New England "Boarder War" of sorts?

Besides that me and my buddys (one lives in NH and one in Boston) have debated UMass' move to FBS for awhile. The stadium was a huge mistake, they could have upgraded McGirk in stages over a number of years to make it work in the interim and petitioned the NCAA to play at least in-conference and FCS opp. games on campus, even with less seating than allowed.

The conference they play in is also a HUGE drawback... Let's face it the MAC is a great, competitive football conference, but its mid-major and in the middle of the country. Closest team is Bufffalo.

Then there's Gillette & Boston-- News flash! Boston is NOT A COLLEGE SPORTS TOWN! Its just not. Hockey is one thing. But remember a few years back when BC would have a turnout at Alumni Stadium that resembed The Rent vs. Memphis two weeks ago? There way too many pro sports choices in Boston. Look at Temple in Philly (same issue).

We're really lucky in CT that our state has no real pro sports identity, and UConn has become in essence our state's team.

 

[SonsOfNutmeg]

I actually thought the Globe piece was pretty balanced. It is correct that you can't make a sensible decision based on 2 years. UMass really needs to rethink the Gillette strategy though. Makes sense to play a game or 2 there maybe, but they really need to focus on developing a fan base from Worcester west. I know there are a lot of UMass alumni in Eastern Mass, but they aren't football fans since there never really has been 1A UMass football to support. they need to be focusing on the folks who have always supported UMass and on developing a new fan base among the student body. Playing games 100 miles from campus doesn't do that. they really need to play most home games in Amherst. An expanded McGurk Stadium to about 20,000 would probably work pretty well and is consistent with the MAC. 15,000 in a 20,000 seat stadium is a solid crowd. the same 15,000 in a 70,000 seat stadium looks and feels like nobody. Play BC at Foxborough, play some other game at Foxborough, then play the MAC home schedule in Amherst. Maybe you get lucky and some year you get BC or UConn to agree to play a game in Amherst and you have lots of folks on campus.

It really would be like if UConn played their home games in Stamford... Rediculous to think anyone (especially students) would bother to come that far to see a poor team play poor opponets in a oversized, caverous NFL stadium that offers no homefield advantage or builds any sense of tradition for your university.

 

[HartfordHank]

I'm trying to picture where in Westborough a DoubleTree is that is close to 495 interchange and all I can think of is Research Ave./Computer Drive. I don't think it was always there. At least it wasn't always a DoubleTree. I grew up not far from there and I held jobs in my teens up and down route 9 (6 months at McDonalds, a year at Scioletti's Italian Eatery (Since closed), and a summer in the warehouse at Bose). The only other hotel that comes to mind in that area is the Red Roof Inn on the westbound side coming from Southboro .

Coming off I495 South onto Route 9 West The DoubleTree is the first building on the right. You can't there from there, you have to go down Route 9 and take the access road (Computer Drive?) back to the Hotel. I am confident that if hasn't always been a DoubleTree. I am not sure how long it has been a DoubleTree.

 

[huskypantz]

UMass needs a geographic rivalry every year with UConn (and we need it too)... Imagine a New England "Boarder War" of sorts?

We don't need a rivalry with one of the current worst programs in D1. Nothing screams small time more than that. Perception is reality. We need a rivalry with one of the three local BCS schools - BC, RU or Cuse. They're not top 25 programs but they were all respectable enough to get picked before us.