Boston Globe goes after UMass football

[jackl]

It's sad if fans don't know the difference between playing Temple and playing WVU.

What are you kidding me!!! We know the difference!! All of us diehards on the BY know the difference. It is just that we are stuck for a short term in a conference that doesn't have a lot of Pizzazz. We can probably thank ND for these circumstances or who ever let them into the Big East Without Football. On the other hand we now have a young Dynamic coach from ND so I guess we should be thankful for somethings.

 

[dsturdy5]

Drove by Gillette last Saturday, saw the lights were on. Wife asked what was going on. I had to look as we drove by and saw UMass on the jumbotron. No heavy traffic as with other events. Even a Rev's game is noticeable if you drive by the stadium area.

The last time UMass played a home football game was November 16th so I doubt it was "last Saturday". The last football event on a Saturday at Gillette was the high school state championship games on 12/7.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I'm not sure what my comments regarding factors that impact attendance have to do with being a UConn fan, but since you asked, yeah, I am.

did you not suggest a 'deep run' is unlikely going forward, just before your little speach about attendance.
As a fellow fan, I can only imagine the excitement of not rooting for Uconn so that my apocalyptic predictions can come true. And then I can come on the BY and make 4,700 posts about being a fan and spread the gospel on the demise of Uconn athletics.
Maybe the definition of 'fan' has changed...

 

[BHusky]

thanks! Was just wondering since it seemed a little hypocritical but it makes sense after the explanation. Would still like to eventually see a stadium in Storrs 25/30 years from now when I think Storrs will be a lot more developed but until then I will continue to show up to the rent and bring whoever I can with me.

I don't have much land development experience, but the biggest difference between UConn and UMass is stadium location and land availability. There was no options to expand Memorial Stadium because of where it was located and the alternative option near Horsebarn Hill was squashed almost immediately because of the challenges with road infrastructure (i.e., they could hardly handle 10k for a BB game, 3x-4x that amount would not be possible to support). It seems the UMass stadium has plenty of room for expansion and this is clear if you google map their location. In reality if they closed off the endzones and did some slight renovating they could get the current stadium to 25k or so which is plenty for them right now.

The reality is that UMass is averaging about the same attendance at Gillette as they were years ago as a 1AA on campus. There is absolutely no positive for them being at Gillette because if they could host 16k on campus back in 2010, they aren't drawing more now. So if anything put the games back on campus, get the same level of fan support and at least let the local economy and students benefit. That would be the argument for them to put the games back in Amherst. Absolutely not an option for Storrs until some major infrastruction improvements take place (and more unlikley since Greek housing took the proposed stadium site).

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think UConn and UMass fans are a lot like most fans in that they don't get real excited playing a schedule filled with schools that are almost all 500+ miles away. We all get that our conference situation is less than ideal for a while, but playing in a southern mid major league and not demanding some regional additions when the league is inviting Tulane and Tulsa doesn't make much sense

Plus, one extra Top 75 RPI program would make a big difference for the basketball league.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

We need to be rooting for UMass and Temple to at least survive if not succeed. The more UConn looks like it is on an island, the less reason there will be for the Big 10 or ACC to add us.

 

[Husky25]

Gillette from downtown Boston is only 25-30 minutes tops with minor Saturday traffic. Also, most of the people in metro Boston don't live in Boston proper, so it is closer for most of them, and for people in Providence. It takes me a little under 2 hours to get to Amherst from Franklin, so it isn't remotely similar for people in metro Boston. Foxboro is definitely well inside the boundary of the Boston metro area, and the stadium is served by rail as well. The difference in access is huge. Amherst is further from Boston than E Hartford is from anywhere in CT, by quite a bit.

Agree that UMass could become western Mass' team so sponsors and promotions would be better.

Sports fans in Providence really don't care about Boston collegiate sports. They have no baring on this conversation...(Forgive the next 2-3 paragraphs, I hooked on to a minor point and beat it to a pulp. I agree with your access comment).

According to Yahoo Maps, it is 27.96 miles from the Golden Dome to Patriot Place, which takes (with no traffic), 34 minutes. The Old State House has the benefit of being about a half mile from and entrance ramp to 93 (Of course that's if the onramp is open and 93 is still running the same direction)...Regardless it is closer to my 40 minute time line than your 25 minutes one.

Secondly, you are absolutely correct. Most people don't live in Boston Proper. I had a girlfriend back in the day that moved to Somerville after graduating from UMass-Amherst. She had a car...if it would start...but took the T to her job in a hospital downtown. From Somerville to Patriot Place it is a 42 minute drive by car. My brother used to lived off of D Street in South Boston (I'm neither Irish, nor a native. Not allowed to call it Southie ). Yahoo calls it 36 minutes without traffic or hitting any lights (Really? No traffic in Boston? Yeah, that's likely to occur.).

If one lives inside 128/95, it is not 100% necessary to have a car and seeing as it is a somewhat expensive place to live (even in Slummer...I mean Somerville), many recent grads do not. Regarding rail service: It takes over 1:30 to get from South Station to Gillette...on Patriots' home game days. Does the Patriot Train run on Saturdays. I'm not aware...it may though. The regular commuter line does not run on weekends. The point is, all things being equal, UMass Football at Gillette Stadium draws the short straw. If they continue to go 1-11, they won't even be in the conversation over drinks at happy hour (Incidentally, HH is "banned" in Massachusetts).

Distance is really a non-issue because attendance isn't large enough at Gillette to matter. Perhaps as more students in the FBS era graduate and migrate east, attendance will improve, but UMass does not have the facilities, budget, or state backing that UConn does. Having a "home" stadium 3 counties to the east (4 if you count Middlesex) is just not sustainable.

 

[Marty Jackson]

here's the reality... you can't make up 3 generations of foundational fan support in 2 years. as uconn is finding out, it's difficult to do in 10.
marketing, advertising, on-field success, recruiting, and even coaching can't overcome that fact. They can help, but in the end, it will take a generation or two to really build the fanbase. While there is a small core of fans that have followed Uconn for decades, the bigger group I suspect is first generation fans. compare that to the likes of Bama, ND or Texas, you can go back two or three generations and see how the fandom was passed down.

 

[freescooter]

did you not suggest a 'deep run' is unlikely going forward, just before your little speach about attendance.
As a fellow fan, I can only imagine the excitement of not rooting for Uconn so that my apocalyptic predictions can come true. And then I can come on the BY and make 4,700 posts about being a fan and spread the gospel on the demise of Uconn athletics.
Maybe the definition of 'fan' has changed...

One has to accept reality. UConn has been to the Sweet 16 13 times in 26 years. That's 50% of the Elite 8 rounds played since 1990 have included the Huskies. We've been to 4 Final Fours, won 3 titles and been to 9 elite 8s in 26 years. In more than a third of the tournaments played since 1990 UConn has been to the Elite 8. Those Mighty Gonzaga Zags you guys are so happy to reference as why we ought not be worried...1 Elite 8 in that time. Then Memphis Tigers, another really great example of a tough mid-major...over the same period, they have six sweet 16s and 4 Elite 8s and 1 Final Four(though the 2008 Final Four has been vacated by the NCAA). Does it show that it is possible? Sure, but it is much tougher than when you are in a power conference. I won't even embarrass you by comparing George Mason or VCU with UConn's post season performance. I hope that UConn can be the exception, and I wish it were likely. Unfortunately there is not very much evidence to suggest that it is.

 

[Marty Jackson]

One has to accept reality. UConn has been to the Sweet 16 13 times in 26 years. That's 50% of the Elite 8 rounds played since 1990 have included the Huskies. We've been to 4 Final Fours, won 3 titles and been to 9 elite 8s in 26 years. In more than a third of the tournaments played since 1990 UConn has been to the Elite 8. Those Mighty Gonzaga Zags you guys are so happy to reference as why we ought not be worried...1 Elite 8 in that time. Then Memphis Tigers, another really great example of a tough mid-major...over the same period, they have six sweet 16s and 4 Elite 8s and 1 Final Four(though the 2008 Final Four has been vacated by the NCAA). Does it show that it is possible? Sure, but it is much tougher than when you are in a power conference. I won't even embarrass you by comparing George Mason or VCU with UConn's post season performance. I hope that UConn can be the exception, and I wish it were likely. Unfortunately there is not very much evidence to suggest that it is.

Uconn is the exception. What other school has won 3 NC's in the past 15 years?
Uconn is not defined by the AAC... 'Uconn is in a league of it's own, g-dammit!'

here's a new avatar for you.

 

[Marty Jackson]

One has to accept reality. UConn has been to the Sweet 16 13 times in 26 years. That's 50% of the Elite 8 rounds played since 1990 have included the Huskies. We've been to 4 Final Fours, won 3 titles and been to 9 elite 8s in 26 years. In more than a third of the tournaments played since 1990 UConn has been to the Elite 8. Those Mighty Gonzaga Zags you guys are so happy to reference as why we ought not be worried...1 Elite 8 in that time. Then Memphis Tigers, another really great example of a tough mid-major...over the same period, they have six sweet 16s and 4 Elite 8s and 1 Final Four(though the 2008 Final Four has been vacated by the NCAA). Does it show that it is possible? Sure, but it is much tougher than when you are in a power conference. I won't even embarrass you by comparing George Mason or VCU with UConn's post season performance. I hope that UConn can be the exception, and I wish it were likely. Unfortunately there is not very much evidence to suggest that it is.

Why would you think VCU, George Mason, or Gonzaga are comparable to Uconn.
curious, in your search for 'evidence' how many schools did you find that were once the dominate program in the most dominate league only to be left behind in conference realignment? Of that list, how many had an athletic budget in the top 30-40 of all college athletics at $65M+? And then, how many had more than 15+ players in the NBA the past 10 years.
My evidence suggests that no school has been where Uconn is now...

But please, keep calling yourself a fan.

 

[DrG]

FYI, next season, UMass will play three MAC games at McGuirk (with a new press box and FB facility, same seating capacity), and three at Gillette (BC, Colorado and a MAC game).

 

[HuskyHawk]

The last time UMass played a home football game was November 16th so I doubt it was "last Saturday". The last football event on a Saturday at Gillette was the high school state championship games on 12/7.

Makes sense. As I said, all I saw was the jumbotron, and the helmet and jersey were UMass colors. I've driven by UMass games as well, traffic for the HS championship was about the same.

 

[HuskyHawk]

here's the reality... you can't make up 3 generations of foundational fan support in 2 years. as uconn is finding out, it's difficult to do in 10.
marketing, advertising, on-field success, recruiting, and even coaching can't overcome that fact. They can help, but in the end, it will take a generation or two to really build the fanbase. While there is a small core of fans that have followed Uconn for decades, the bigger group I suspect is first generation fans. compare that to the likes of Bama, ND or Texas, you can go back two or three generations and see how the fandom was passed down.

Yes, this is the key for UConn and UMass as well. It's why they need to start a tradition of the students going to and caring about the games, and then, maybe in 20-30 years there will be enough alumni across the state and in CT, RI and NH to be willing to attend and travel to games. For now, they need western MA, later, they might be better served closer to Boston.

UConn gambled a bit with the stadium in E. Hartford, but unlike Amherst to Gillette, it is still relatively close to campus. Still, an on campus stadium (however politically unviable, and logistically inaccessible) would have done more to strengthen the student and future alumni fan base in my opinion. Short term, E Hartford was better. Long term, Horsebarn Hill probably would have been.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

People in eastern MA think the state ends @ Wustah (they only acknowledge western MA when referring to Tanglewood).

When I outside of Boston, I invited a friend and native to go with me to an UConn game down at the Rent and I offered to drive. He grew-up in a small suburb in between Rte 128 and I-495 southwest of the City. I asked to meet me at a hotel off of Rte 9 in Westborough where we would leave his car. I had to give him detailed directions how to get there because he did not know that Westborough existed, even if the town was 20 miles away from him as the crow flies. He’s a good guy; but, typical Hub native in that anything west of I-495 is upstate New York or Ohio to him.

 

[freescooter]

Much as you and I would love to believe that, history tells a different story. As the basketball world became more stratified in the late 80s and 1990s into power conferences, low majors and mid-majors, the folks who got left behind seldom had the same success that they had in earlier times. Look at Louisville. A major power in the 1980s. 4Final Fours in 6 years. Two titles. Then they got shunted off to a mid-major conference. From there they were able to make the occasional run, but took 11 years to get back to an Elite 8. the problems with being in the American are many. But the biggest are that ultimately it will be tougher to recruit guys to play Houston and Tulsa rather than Syracuse and Duke, and given the fairly crappy nature of the league it will impact our seeding in the NCAA Tournament. And seeding is critical to deep runs. 70% of the teams in the Elite 8 between 1985 and 2013 were seeded 3 or higher. So if you end up with a 5 instead of a 2 or a 3 because your RPI is lower, it is MUCH higher to get that deep. A 5 seed doesn't have an "automatic win" in the first round. the 2nd round opponent is much tougher. If you win that, there's a good chance you are the lowest remaining seed in the Regionals. Again, its possible for sure, and teams have done it. Just not that many comparatively. And finally playing weaker competition just makes teams less battle tested. there were usually 10 teams in the Big East who could win on any given night. 4-5 who were toss ups and only a handful who were pretty much automatic wins (Hi Rutgers). Those ratios are backwards in the American. Look, I wish it weren't so. I would love nothing better than to play in the ACC, go head to head with Duke, UNC, Syracuse, and the rest on a weekly basis, win the ACC and go into the tourney as a 1-2 seed every year. Sadly we won't.

 

[Husky25]

When I outside of Boston, I invited a friend and native to go with me to an UConn game down at the Rent and I offered to drive. He grew-up in a small suburb in between Rte 128 and I-495 southwest of the City. I asked to meet me at a hotel off of Rte 9 in Westborough where we would leave his car. I had to give him detailed directions how to get there because he did not know that Westborough existed, even if the town was 20 miles away from him as the crow flies. He’s a good guy; but, typical Hub native in that anything west of I-495 is upstate New York or Ohio to him.

How did he not know where the Sheraton Tara is?

 

[HuskyHawk]

When I outside of Boston, I invited a friend and native to go with me to an UConn game down at the Rent and I offered to drive. He grew-up in a small suburb in between Rte 128 and I-495 southwest of the City. I asked to meet me at a hotel off of Rte 9 in Westborough where we would leave his car. I had to give him detailed directions how to get there because he did not know that Westborough existed, even if the town was 20 miles away from him as the crow flies. He’s a good guy; but, typical Hub native in that anything west of I-495 is upstate New York or Ohio to him.

How long ago was this? My wife used to feel this way, as a South Shore native and later South Boston resident. But now? The growth is mostly along 495. There's no room anyplace else (except South Boston on the waterfront). A lot of people in Boston (including me at one time) commute outward to the 495 ring for work. I suppose I have run into a few townies in Southie or Charlestown, who never drive further than Braintree or Newton, but it's not as common as it once was.

 

[Carl Spackler]

here's the reality... you can't make up 3 generations of foundational fan support in 2 years. as uconn is finding out, it's difficult to do in 10.
marketing, advertising, on-field success, recruiting, and even coaching can't overcome that fact. They can help, but in the end, it will take a generation or two to really build the fanbase. While there is a small core of fans that have followed Uconn for decades, the bigger group I suspect is first generation fans. compare that to the likes of Bama, ND or Texas, you can go back two or three generations and see how the fandom was passed down.

This about sums it all up. UMass is trying to do what UCONN did, (grow it's football program) except they are doing it without any of the support and backing that UCONN had. There is no MinutemanMania in Massachusetts.

When UConn beat UMass in Amherst in 1997, there were less than 3k people in the stands. For sure. I know - I was there. at least a quarter and maybe up to half of that 3k were UConn fans. When we beat UMass at memorial stadium in 1998, which was a great game BTW - there were about 7,000 fans in bleachers, estimate - given the stadium held about double that at capacity. When we lost in 1999 to Don Brown's UMass team in Amherst, it was probably 10k in the stadium in Amherst. UMass has having a really good season.

The fans that made up those crowds, are essentially the diehards that exist for both programs.

Huskymania, and UCONN basketball popularity and the population density of CT are the difference, as well as having an actual stadium that seats 40k within a reasonable drive of Storrs. UMass has none of that.

Those things are the reason we easily jumped up to 35k-40k attendance at home for football in 2003, and that we were able to get 37k+ for an opener with UMass last year? 2 years ago?

Growing that 8,000 or so base from Memorial stadium in 1998, has a little more than doubled in 15 years to 17k that showed up last December.

That's about 1 generation of fans from kids to adults.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

This is multi factored. Competition and attendance and location all matter for basketball. The problem for us is that these factors are related. Playing a bad conference schedule will drive down attendance, particularly when the fan base doesn't know anything about these schools in the league. Low attendance and the loss of games in new York city will also impact recruiting.

This can be improved, but UConn has to be creative and aggressive. Sitting around hoping Tulane gets better is not a winning strategy.

 

[Husky25]

This is multi factored. Competition and attendance and location all matter for basketball. The problem for us is that these factors are related. Playing a bad conference schedule will drive down attendance, particularly when the fan base doesn't know anything about these schools in the league. Low attendance and the loss of games in new York city will also impact recruiting.

This can be improved, but UConn has to be creative and aggressive. Sitting around hoping Tulane gets better is not a winning strategy.

I continue to ask (You never answer, so only the Omniscient One knows why I keep it up...) Why do you think UConn is sitting around hoping anything? You've already stated that you don't have insider knowledge. Why is it you bash the administration at every turn for not doing a job that you have no idea if they are? Others and I have given you numerous examples of the Schools' activities, yet you continue to paint this gloom and doom picture. Do you not think that everyone here knows what is happening over the next 3-5 years? It is what it is, but there is zero reason to think UConn is not being creative or aggressive.

 

[pj]

We need to be rooting for UMass and Temple to at least survive if not succeed. The more UConn looks like it is on an island, the less reason there will be for the Big 10 or ACC to add us.

Not necessarily. If UMass, Buffalo, Temple etc drop football, we'll be the only major football school in the northeast apart from BC, Cuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Maryland, Pitt, Navy, Army. That's 4 Power 5 teams in the Md/NJ/PA region of 29 million people (30 counting DC), and 2 teams in the NY/New England region of 35 million people. It will be an extremely underserved region in college football terms. The rest of the country has a Power-5 team for every 3-4 million people. And out of UConn, Navy, and Army, who is most likely to step up? Once the conferences look for ways to add money, UConn will be the #1 option in the country, and all the more so if more northeastern schools have dropped out of the football race.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

How long ago was this? My wife used to feel this way, as a South Shore native and later South Boston resident. But now? The growth is mostly along 495. There's no room anyplace else (except South Boston on the waterfront). A lot of people in Boston (including me at one time) commute outward to the 495 ring for work. I suppose I have run into a few townies in Southie or Charlestown, who never drive further than Braintree or Newton, but it's not as common as it once was.

Maybe 10 years ago and not, he still has not changed. He’s the only one of 4 guys I used to hang out with a lot (we all started on the same customer service team at the same time) that firmly believes that 1) Boston is way better culturally and job-wise than NYC, and 2) that Boston drivers are not the worst in the country (outside of RI drivers).
It also highlights one of UMass’s many issues. No one in on Beacon Hill gives a crap about what happens outside of 495 for the most part. That is reflected in terms of how UMass Amherst is funded and how poor its sports brand is. Heck, UConn is closer to the Common than UMass Amherst. Plus, UMass Amherst has to deal with the fact that it ranks way behind the pro teams in Boston, plus, BC, BU and Harvard. If UConn is having a good year, the Huskies get more time on Channel 5 than the Minutemen. Plus, UMass Amherst for all intent is now competing for state dollars with UMass Lowell. UMass Lowell has a very politically connected President (Meehan) who has leading an expansion of the school’s sports (going to America East) and academics and that school is only 40 miles from the Common and is reachable by commuter rail.

 

[HartfordHank]

How did he not know where the Sheraton Tara is?

The Sheraton Tara is in Framingham! I think the hotel he was at is the DoubleTree.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Not necessarily. If UMass, Buffalo, Temple etc drop football, we'll be the only major football school in the northeast apart from BC, Cuse, Rutgers, Penn State, Maryland, Pitt, Navy, Army. That's 4 Power 5 teams in the Md/NJ/PA region of 29 million people (30 counting DC), and 2 teams in the NY/New England region of 35 million people. It will be an extremely underserved region in college football terms. The rest of the country has a Power-5 team for every 3-4 million people. And out of UConn, Navy, and Army, who is most likely to step up? Once the conferences look for ways to add money, UConn will be the #1 option in the country, and all the more so if more northeastern schools have dropped out of the football race.

More likely, in that scenario, UConn is the only non-P5, FBS school east of Ohio and south of Virginia. The ACC and Big 10 then freeze us out from scheduling while marketing hard in New York, forcing us to fly 800 miles for each football game. That won't last long before UConn drops football.

The only way UConn gets invited to a major conference is if UConn is thriving on its own. We need local competition to do that.