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nelsonmuntz said:
Prove me wrong. Go back and look at conference title games where one team was playing for a national championship bid and the other team had nothing to play for. You should be able to prove it if you are right.
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So if a national title contender beats an also-ran, your point is proved that teams throw games?
 
mets1090 said:
Fool proof way to "win" an argument.

1) State conspiracy theory that's impossible to prove wrong.
2) Demand that someone prove you wrong.
3) ????
4) Profit.
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1) I am simply pointing out the incentives. If you see the incentives as being different, feel free to correct me. Otherwise, I am right and you are wrong.
2) The assertion that schools try their darndest is easily provable. Simply look at the instances where a Top 2 team played a conference opponent in the last week, and see what the record in those games was.
3) There are multiple instances of suspect officiating in key games.
4) no other sport works this way.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
1) I am simply pointing out the incentives. If you see the incentives as being different, feel free to correct me. Otherwise, I am right and you are wrong.
2) The assertion that schools try their darndest is easily provable. Simply look at the instances where a Top 2 team played a conference opponent in the last week, and see what the record in those games was.
3) There are multiple instances of suspect officiating in key games.
4) no other sport works this way.
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That's a point I wouldn't argue against. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if officials were throwing flags to help the team that will improve the finances of their conference or whatever. Hard to prove, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if it was true.

I just don't think you're going to find that players are throwing games. I can't imagine a collection of 18-22 year olds are going to throw what could be their only chance at a conference championship. Systemic stuff is a different topic altogether.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Prove me wrong. Go back and look at conference title games where one team was playing for a national championship bid and the other team had nothing to play for. You should be able to prove it if you are right.
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Below is a helpful link regarding the types and descriptions of most of the accepted logical fallacies. You should read up on this.

http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm
 
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mets1090 said:
That's a point I wouldn't argue against. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if officials were throwing flags to help the team that will improve the finances of their conference or whatever. Hard to prove, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if it was true.

I just don't think you're going to find that players are throwing games. I can't imagine a collection of 18-22 year olds are going to throw what could be their only chance at a conference championship. Systemic stuff is a different topic altogether.
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I don't think players are throwing games either. I do think Coaches are aware of the various realities. It may be as simple as knowing how far they can push it for a win. Think of it like playing golf with your boss. You can't complete sandbag and shoot 10 strokes over your handicap or it will look bad. But you aren't going to do anything heroic to try and beat him if he is on track to shooting an 85 either.

Maybe you call a few more runs up the middle and screen passes, and maybe you really rein it in if you get up a TD or 2. A coach at this level can throw a game and maybe only 3 or 4 people might realize something was slightly strange about a few play calls.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
About 5 of them explain the logic of those arguing with me.

Does ANYONE on this board disagree with my assertion that both Wisconsin and Ohio State were better off with Ohio State winning that game?
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You have to be kidding..
Ask the Wisconsin players. Go ahead.
Hey Badgers.....you guys were ok with just playing in the Outback Bowl right? I mean...the Rose Bowl would not have meant THAT much right?
A B1G Championship and The Rose Bowl......nah.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
About 5 of them explain the logic of those arguing with me.

Does ANYONE on this board disagree with my assertion that both Wisconsin and Ohio State were better off with Ohio State winning that game?
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Everyone disagrees with that assertion. The Wisconsin administration may have been better off, but their team sure wasn't. A win by Wisconsin would have meant they would have been likely playing in a Big Six bowl.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
About 5 of them explain the logic of those arguing with me.

Does ANYONE on this board disagree with my assertion that both Wisconsin and Ohio State were better off with Ohio State winning that game?
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Yes, I disagree with your assertion. In fact, I think it's beyond crazy. Conference accomplishments was important in the Old Big East to stay in the club. The Big Ten is the club. No school has to worry about anything more than their own accomplishments.
 
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businesslawyer said:
Yes, I disagree with your assertion. In fact, I think it's beyond crazy. Conference accomplishments was important in the Old Big East to stay in the club. The Big Ten is the club. No school has to worry about anything more than their own accomplishments.
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Do you agree with my assertion that non-competitive coaches and players gravitate toward B1G football? That if it was up to WI, instead of going to the Rose Bowl, they would just as happy with a participation medal?
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Prove me wrong. Go back and look at conference title games where one team was playing for a national championship bid and the other team had nothing to play for. You should be able to prove it if you are right.
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What are you talking about? I was agreeing with you. Re-read my post, while it sounds rediculous I think it's likely the Michigan players would lose on purpose (as long as it was good for the conference)
 
Irishfan said:
What are you talking about? I was agreeing with you. Re-read my post, while it sounds rediculous I think it's likely the Michigan players would lose on purpose (as long as it was good for the conference)
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Wait a second.
giphy.gif
 
Wow, This thread is representative of life wasted.

dayooper said:
I like your style. Two of the three games you cite were decided by a field goal, but why leave that out. It may make a difference. The third was TCU vs Minny freaking sota. Not MSU, Not OSU, not Wisconsin, but Minnesota. Funny, when two of the better ranked teams played (MSU vs. Baylor), the Big10 team won. MSU beat a team you are complaining about being left out. That same MSU team lost to OSU by 12 points at home.

I could see your point until you insinuated that Wisconsin threw the game to help the Big10. That might be the dumbest thing I have ever seen you write.
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Your post above made me think of this!
Can someone post the clip from Ruthless People, regarding - "This must be the dumbest man alive"? I can't do it on my current computer but I really think it is fitting if someone wants to post it! To nelsonmuntz, please for the love of God, just quit while your way, way, way behind!
 
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nelsonmuntz said:
1) I am simply pointing out the incentives. If you see the incentives as being different, feel free to correct me. Otherwise, I am right and you are wrong.
2) The assertion that schools try their darndest is easily provable. Simply look at the instances where a Top 2 team played a conference opponent in the last week, and see what the record in those games was.
3) There are multiple instances of suspect officiating in key games.
4) no other sport works this way.
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Again, what is the incentive for the players - the ones who will actually determine who wins and who loses - to let the other team win? You keep ignoring this question, and I suspect it's because you're a troll simply looking to irritate people.
 
CallMeBruce said:
Again, what is the incentive for the players - the ones who will actually determine who wins and who loses - to let the other team win? You keep ignoring this question, and I suspect it's because you're a troll simply looking to irritate people.
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Already answered this in the thread. RIF.
 
businesslawyer said:
Yes, I disagree with your assertion. In fact, I think it's beyond crazy. Conference accomplishments was important in the Old Big East to stay in the club. The Big Ten is the club. No school has to worry about anything more than their own accomplishments.
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This is the twilight zone of arguments. Coaches have come out and said that conferences fix games (see Mike Leach and Mark Mangino). Look at any game involving an SEC team and a non-P5 that is close late in the 3rd quarter. I only watched 10 minutes of Bowling Green/Tennessee and still saw the refs swallow their whistle on about 3 defensive pass interference penalties against Tennessee, including 1 in the end zone on 3 and forever that would have cut the Tennessee lead to 1 score. It was bad enough that BGU's coach blew a gasket and ran onto the field. And you are telling me that conference do not pay ANY ATTENTION AT ALL to who is winning which games?

Or are you saying that since the Big 10 is in the club, they aren't trying to win. Because that goes directly against the rest of your argument.
 
mets1090 said:
That's a point I wouldn't argue against. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if officials were throwing flags to help the team that will improve the finances of their conference or whatever. Hard to prove, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if it was true.

I just don't think you're going to find that players are throwing games. I can't imagine a collection of 18-22 year olds are going to throw what could be their only chance at a conference championship. Systemic stuff is a different topic altogether.
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College football is the only major sport where the officials are paid by a conference that has a rooting interest in the outcome of the game. If you want to be a big time college football ref, I believe you are almost completely dependent on the good graces of the conference you work for. Basketball has a somewhat similar problem, although I believe many officials work for multiple conferences so it is not quite as bad.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
College football is the only major sport where the officials are paid by a conference that has a rooting interest in the outcome of the game.
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That's nothing, what if they're soviet-era spies, undermining the foundation of our democracy... Starting with our football. Come to think of it, I think I might have something there.
 
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nelsonmuntz said:
College football is the only major sport where the officials are paid by a conference that has a rooting interest in the outcome of the game. If you want to be a big time college football ref, I believe you are almost completely dependent on the good graces of the conference you work for. Basketball has a somewhat similar problem, although I believe many officials work for multiple conferences so it is not quite as bad.
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This is why it is so difficult being an independent in college football. I figure it costs us between 3 and 10 points per game.
 
Irishfan said:
This is why it is so difficult being an independent in college football. I figure it costs us between 3 and 10 points per game.
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Yes, ND never gets any calls.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Your argument is that because you think you are competitive and athletic, therefore no major program would play a big game differently even if the best thing for them would be a loss. And you know this because you coach middle school kids and have never been in a position to lose your school a million dollars or more. Got it.
.
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No, I know this because I have played highly competitive sports. I know what college players think. I have been around college athletes, have coached college athletes, have had many family members who have been college athletes. I have played college athletics. If the players were asked to, that we would have heard about it. Yup, seniors who this was their last season are going to throw it. My guess is you have never set foot in a college athletic program. You don't know the work, time, blood, sweat, and tears. Maybe you have played a season of college football with a separated shoulder. Maybe you have played a game with a broken foot. Maybe you have put in hours of preparation into your season. My guess is you have not. Got it.

Better to be a has been than a never was. You would never know.
 
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