Big East v. Power 5 Challenge

[nomdoux]

I concur with Geno (see bottom of post) & likely many of you on this forum that the Big East is underrated, with the bottom few teams dragging down the conference reputation & stats overall. This hurts UConn SOS perception & exacerbates NCAA Tournament bids discrepancy vis-a-vis Power 5 rival conferences.

Therefore, I am hoping that the Big East enters talks with a Power 5 conference to begin an in-season Challenge event ASAP in future, wherein a representative handful of teams from each face-off H2H over the course of 1-2 days. This seems like the best way to build BE credibility moving forward while also shielding from poor performance of bottom-dweller programs.

From Dom Amore in Hartford Courant piece today, posted in another thread:

Auriemma, after two seasons in the new Big East, has become a fan of his conference rivals and hopes to see four teams, including Villanova, Creighton and DePaul, go to the Big Dance.

“I think our conference is undervalued,” he said. “I don’t know that there are a lot of teams in the country that would like to play Villanova as a seven seed. Or Creighton and DePaul. They’ve been beating up on each other; if that were some other conference, they would say, ‘that goes to show the strength of the conference.’ If the Big East tournament plays out according to the seedings, I’d be disappointed if we didn’t get four teams. How do you keep Villanova out? They’ve got one of the best players in the country [Maddie Siegrist].”

 

[tchalla1]

I concur with Geno (see bottom of post) & likely many of you on this forum that the Big East is underrated, with the bottom few teams dragging down the conference reputation & stats overall. This hurts UConn SOS perception & exacerbates NCAA Tournament bids discrepancy vis-a-vis Power 5 rival conferences.

Therefore, I am hoping that the Big East enters talks with a Power 5 conference to begin an in-season Challenge event ASAP in future, wherein a representative handful of teams from each face-off H2H over the course of 1-2 days. This seems like the best way to build BE credibility moving forward while also shielding from poor performance of bottom-dweller programs.

From Dom Amore in Hartford Courant piece today, posted in another thread:

Auriemma, after two seasons in the new Big East, has become a fan of his conference rivals and hopes to see four teams, including Villanova, Creighton and DePaul, go to the Big Dance.

“I think our conference is undervalued,” he said. “I don’t know that there are a lot of teams in the country that would like to play Villanova as a seven seed. Or Creighton and DePaul. They’ve been beating up on each other; if that were some other conference, they would say, ‘that goes to show the strength of the conference.’ If the Big East tournament plays out according to the seedings, I’d be disappointed if we didn’t get four teams. How do you keep Villanova out? They’ve got one of the best players in the country [Maddie Siegrist].”

I've been watching the SEC tourney all week and really, I am not impressed--there is little or no offense ran, a lot of one-on-one, ill-advised shots and disjointed play. How the SEC is getting 9, possibly 10 teams in is beyond me. There are a couple of really good teams but the rest are mediocre at best. I hope Villanova gets in and gets the opportunity to show other conferences what the Big East is capable of.

 

[JordyG]

I've been watching the SEC tourney all week and really, I am not impressed--there is little or no offense ran, a lot of one-on-one, ill-advised shots and disjointed play. How the SEC is getting 9, possibly 10 teams in is beyond me. There are a couple of really good teams but the rest are mediocre at best. I hope Villanova gets in and gets the opportunity to show other conferences what the Big East is capable of.

Look how many teams from the B1G 10 are in, and none of them look like a good spit to me.

 

[MSGRET]

There is no way any of those teams in the P5 that have a losing conference record should be in the NCAA tournament. Many of the teams that have a winning conference record don't look that great so why would you want to have a team that can't even win in their respective conference. There should be at least 3 if not 4 teams going to the tournament from the Big East.

 

[nomdoux]

I've been watching the SEC tourney all week and really, I am not impressed... There are a couple of really good teams but the rest are mediocre at best. I hope Villanova gets in and gets the opportunity to show other conferences what the Big East is capable of.

This is the whole point of my BE-P5 Conference Challenge proposal: to schedule these inter-conference matchups around a concentrated event/time in order to build Big East credibility at representative tiers.

 

[nomdoux]

P.S.-- I'm sympathetic to Villanova. They lost to Tournament darlings Princeton & Maryland out of the gate & had Maddie Siegrist, one of the Top 25 players in the country IMO, injured for the first part of their season. They beat UConn on the road, snapping our insane conference winning streak, swept Marquette, & split with projected Tournament entry Creighton & bubble team Depaul. Their NCAA bracket omission would be a tough pillow to swallow.

 

[HuskyNan]

Top 25 players? Maddy is a little higher than that.


POINTS PER GAME
Through games March 3, 2022

RANK	NAME	TEAM	PPG
1	Caitlin Clark	Iowa	27.5
2	Maddy Siegrist	Villanova	26.5
3	Jasmine Dickey	Delaware	25.1
4	Dyaisha Fair	Buffalo	23.9
5	Cierra Hooks	Ohio	23.0
6	Ayoka Lee	Kansas St.	22.7
7	Jordyn Dawson	Akron	22.3
8	Makenna Marisa	Penn St.	22.2
9	NaLyssa Smith	Baylor	21.8
10	Jennifer Coleman	Navy	21.6

 

[CL82]

This is the whole point of my BE-P5 Conference Challenge proposal: to schedule these inter-conference matchups around a concentrated event/time in order to build Big East credibility at representative tiers.

I could not agree more. If only the Big East had the opportunity to play P5 teams during the preseason!

 

[diggerfoot]

I could not agree more. If only the Big East had the opportunity to play P5 teams during the preseason!

I suspect this was a little tongue-in-cheek, but reveals a problem that early season face-offs may not address.

All other things being equal, P5 conferences are going to recruit better talent than the BE (at least for now, I can hope that our recruitment will get better like the men over time). What can compensate for that disadvantage is good coaching or systems that develop the whole greater than the parts. But success based on that takes time and won’t show up in early season face-offs. Villanova is a perfect example of that as they improved mightily as the season went on.

This will never happen, but it would be to the advantage of both the BE and the seeding committee if these conference face-offs occurred towards the end of the regular season. Unfortunately, I can’t see a conference like the SEC ever agreeing to something like this.

 

[visitingcock]

I’m not defending nine teams being worthy. They aren’t

However, the “objective” NET does ranking the SEC as the best conference by a rather wide margin.

Hate it if you must, but money usually matters. (UConn is the exception). A P-5!can spend more money on facilities, travel accommodations, athletic support systems etc etc than smaller schools.

What percentage of top 100 recruits sign with non P-5 Plus One schools?

 

[CL82]

I suspect this was a little tongue-in-cheek, but reveals a problem that early season face-offs may not address.

Ya think?

All other things being equal, P5 conferences are going to recruit better talent than the BE (at least for now, I can hope that our recruitment will get better like the men over time).

I don’t know if women’s basketball recruiting is as conference focused as it is team focused. Connecticut, for example, will recruit about the same no matter which conference you dump them into.

Keep in mind, as was the case in the old Big East and the American when we were in it, that there is a UConn proximity effect that benefits our conference mates. Come to [insert Big East conference team] here and you will play against the very best, etc. Jim Calhoun used exactly that argument early in his tenure at Connecticut. Also, I think being in proximity to UConn women’s basketball helps athletic departments to realize that creating a competent program is low hanging fruit in terms of untapped ticket revenue. For whatever reason, the teams around us seem to improve. As that happens the competition within the Big East and the net ranking of Big East games will also improve

This will never happen, but it would be to the advantage of both the BE and the seeding committee if these conference face-offs occurred towards the end of the regular season. Unfortunately, I can’t see a conference like the SEC ever agreeing to something like this.

You’re not wrong it would benefit Big East conference teams and give the seeding committee good information, but at the end of the season teams are focused on winning their conference tournaments, or getting good seeding in their conference tournaments. I don’t see it happening either.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I concur with Geno (see bottom of post) & likely many of you on this forum that the Big East is underrated, with the bottom few teams dragging down the conference reputation & stats overall. This hurts UConn SOS perception & exacerbates NCAA Tournament bids discrepancy vis-a-vis Power 5 rival conferences.

Therefore, I am hoping that the Big East enters talks with a Power 5 conference to begin an in-season Challenge event ASAP in future, wherein a representative handful of teams from each face-off H2H over the course of 1-2 days. This seems like the best way to build BE credibility moving forward while also shielding from poor performance of bottom-dweller programs.

From Dom Amore in Hartford Courant piece today, posted in another thread:

Auriemma, after two seasons in the new Big East, has become a fan of his conference rivals and hopes to see four teams, including Villanova, Creighton and DePaul, go to the Big Dance.

“I think our conference is undervalued,” he said. “I don’t know that there are a lot of teams in the country that would like to play Villanova as a seven seed. Or Creighton and DePaul. They’ve been beating up on each other; if that were some other conference, they would say, ‘that goes to show the strength of the conference.’ If the Big East tournament plays out according to the seedings, I’d be disappointed if we didn’t get four teams. How do you keep Villanova out? They’ve got one of the best players in the country [Maddie Siegrist].”

But what's in it for the P5?

 

[LoboDays]

Butler/ SC game would be a tough ticket to get.

 

[Vowelguy]

Folks talk like these teams are perfect outside the big East.

Villanova played plenty of non conference games. They beat Penn by 3, Lehigh by 5, while losing to Trmple and getting stomped by Princeton. Not to mention in conference loss to Providence.

It is not anti BE bias. It is their own resume that could keep them out.

 

[Plebe]

Here's our BE-p5 challenge from this season:

• UConn (5-4) beat Tennessee, Notre Dame, Arkansas, UCLA and Minnesota, and lost to South Carolina, Georgia Tech, Louisville and Oregon.
  
  
• Villanova (1-1) lost by 21 at Maryland, and won by 4 over Oregon State at home.
  
  
• Creighton (2-1) won at Arkansas and beat Arizona State at home, and lost a close game at Nebraska.
  
  
• DePaul (4-3) won at Kentucky (a win that's looking better with KY's recent surge), won close games over Northwestern and Rutgers, and beat Vanderbilt handily; but they got crushed at Texas A&M and lost competitive games to Arizona and Notre Dame.
  
  
• Marquette (0-2) played Georgia on a neutral court and lost by 25. They also traveled to Colorado and lost by 15.
  
  
• Seton Hall (0-1) lost on a neutral court to USC.
• St. John's (0-1) lost in the last-place game of a holiday tournament to UCLA (after UCLA had lost to Kent State).
• Providence (0-1) lost a home game by 8 to Boston College.
• Georgetown played no p-5 teams.
• Xavier (0-1) traveled to Utah and lost by 35.
• Butler (0-1) lost by 12 at Illinois.

Total score: 12-16.

The Big East top 4 teams were 12-9; the bottom 7 teams were 0-7.

 

[nomdoux]

But what's in it for the P5?

… Ay, there’s the rub!

BE’s top teams competitive inter-conference. Issue is soft underbelly. Geno cited as much in his BE Title postgame presser when asked to comment on BE conference viability re: NCAA bid consideration.

Note also that Villanova was missing Maddy Siegrist when they lost to Maryland & Princeton.

What should matter is how teams are playing now & their season through line. Again as Geno said, I’d love to see Villanova, or even DePaul/Marquette, play a P5 in-conf ~7 seed— any that are considered virtual Tournament locks. As Plebe cited, DePaul beat Tourney darlings Kentucky & Northwestern, for example.

Finally, per Geno, why is it considered a P5 conf boon & celebration of parity when these schools beat each other intra-conf but a negative when the same thing happens in Big East among top half of conference?!!

 

[JoePgh]

Folks talk like these teams are perfect outside the big East.

Villanova played plenty of non conference games. They beat Penn by 3, Lehigh by 5, while losing to Trmple and getting stomped by Princeton. Not to mention in conference loss to Providence.

It is not anti BE bias. It is their own resume that could keep them out.

I agree that there is no anti-Big East bias, but still, how many of the above losses and close wins were when Villanova was without Maddy Siegrist? I believe I've read that prior to last night, they had only two losses while Siegrist was playing.

And, as has been noted, the Selection Committee has the ability and authority to consider availability of key players when evaluating a team's "resume".

 

[LoboDays]

Here's our BE-p5 challenge from this season:

• UConn (5-3) beat Tennessee, Notre Dame, Arkansas, UCLA and Minnesota, and lost to South Carolina, Louisville and Georgia Tech.
  
  
• Villanova (1-1) lost by 21 at Maryland, and won by 4 over Oregon State at home.
  
  
• Creighton (2-1) won at Arkansas and beat Arizona State at home, and lost a close game at Nebraska.
  
  
• DePaul (4-3) won at Kentucky (a win that's looking better with KY's recent surge), won close games over Northwestern and Rutgers, and beat Vanderbilt handily; but they got crushed at Texas A&M and lost competitive games to Arizona and Notre Dame.
  
  
• Marquette (0-2) played Georgia on a neutral court and lost by 25. They also traveled to Colorado and lost by 15.
  
  
• Seton Hall (0-1) lost on a neutral court to USC.
• St. John's (0-1) lost in the last-place game of a holiday tournament to UCLA (after UCLA had lost to Kent State).
• Providence (0-1) lost a home game by 8 to Boston College.
• Georgetown played no p-5 teams.
• Xavier (0-1) traveled to Utah and lost by 35.
• Butler (0-1) lost by 12 at Illinois.

Total score: 12-15.

The Big East top 4 teams were 12-8; the bottom 7 teams were 0-7.

Didn’t UCONN also lose to Oregon?

 

[Rb335]

Here lies the issue. Outside of Connecticut and DePaul, the remaining 9 teams in the Big East only scheduled 12 games against P5 competition, and went 3-9.

The P5 are always going to get the most teams into the NCAA, and the big east needs to schedule more OOC games against these teams to prove the conference strength.

I really feel that the talent was there for more than 2 teams to gain entry to the NCAAT, but a lot of the big east matchups aren’t quality games for anybody, because their NET rankings are too low to be Quad 1. I’d say schedule a few more tough games to at least give yourself the opportunity to get quality wins. If Villanova had done that, they might be in a better spot. Does a close loss to a Quad 1 opponent hurt more than an easy Quad 4 win helps? Granted, these teams still need to win the games that we’re head scratching losses.

 

[LoboDays]

I agree that there is no anti-Big East bias, but still, how many of the above losses and close wins were when Villanova was without Maddy Siegrist? I believe I've read that prior to last night, they had only two losses while Siegrist was playing.

And, as has been noted, the Selection Committee has the ability and authority to consider availability of key players when evaluating a team's "resume".

They may have the ability/authority to consider injuries but they would have to do it fairly for all teams ( I lost track. Are we up to 100 yet?) who was injured? How important was that player to the teams success? Who did they lose to? Did that team have injuries? And would it work the other way. Would they lower the seed for a superior team if their star was injured in the final game of the season? If I’m on the committee, I don’t go down that rabbit hole. I ignore injuries, look at the body of work and seed accordingly.

 

[Blueconn]

Patience. With the greatest program in WCBB history back in the BE interest will grow. Girls around the country gonna wanna be part of it. Football be damned. P.S.- I dream of the day when Syracuse and Boston College humbly ask for readmittance.

 

[cancontent]

Ya think?

I don’t know if women’s basketball recruiting is as conference focused as it is team focused. Connecticut, for example, will recruit about the same no matter which conference you dump them into.

Keep in mind, as was the case in the old Big East and the American when we were in it, that there is a UConn proximity effect that benefits our conference mates. Come to [insert Big East conference team] here and you will play against the very best, etc. Jim Calhoun used exactly that argument early in his tenure at Connecticut. Also, I think being in proximity to UConn women’s basketball helps athletic departments to realize that creating a competent program is low hanging fruit in terms of untapped ticket revenue. For whatever reason, the teams around us seem to improve. As that happens the competition within the Big East and the net ranking of Big East games will also improve

You’re not wrong it would benefit Big East conference teams and give the seeding committee good information, but at the end of the season teams are focused on winning their conference tournaments, or getting good seeding in their conference tournaments. I don’t see it happening either.

From what I'm noticing here in Canada, it's much more conference focused than it used to be. In the past, it was NCAA over Canadian universities and it didn't matter where.

The lack of knowledge of how competitive some of the HM / MM programs is frustrating. I was talking to a friend with a daughter being recruited. They dismissed DePaul as an option because they were in the Big East, prior to the return of UConn. I had to bite my tongue to the point it almost bled.

The push for some of the AAU programs in Canada is to get their kids to P5 schools so they can promote their success and increase their brand/reach. What they fail to tell you is whether the kid stuck around or had to transfer because they couldn't handle it.

 

[Plebe]

Didn’t UCONN also lose to Oregon?

Good catch.

Total score 12-16.

 

[Zanzman]

Patience. With the greatest program in WCBB history back in the BE interest will grow. Girls around the country gonna wanna be part of it. Football be damned. P.S.- I dream of the day when Syracuse and Boston College humbly ask for readmittance.

Only if we say no way to both BC and the cuse