Big 12 and ACC are fumbling with their expansion apprehensiveness? They will become 2nd class BBall citizens as well if they continue.

[Zerostatic]

The Big 12 and ACC had convinced themselves that their niche would be the football conferences with elite basketball, well now the SEC is the best bball conference this year and the Big 10 isn't far behind. The ACC looks particularly mediocre thus far.

Meanwhile the Big 12/ACC let Gonzaga join the Pac 12 and seem to pass over UConn at every opportunity. Other schools like Memphis who easily have stronger hoops and football than some of the cellar dwellers in the ACC/Big 12 also get passed over regularly.

If the SEC/Big 10 start winning national championships in basketball and keep having the most ranked bball teams, it will just be a matter of time before the scenario in football starts to happen to BBall where the majority of the top bball recruits start going to SEC/BIG 10 schools.

I think Brett Yormark gets it, but the rest of the leadership in the ACC/BIG 12 are being penny-wise and pound foolish imo.

If I was making decisions for one of these conferences I'd be assembling a 24 team conference that spans all 4 time zones with divisions (East, West, South, North) to minimize travel for olympic sports and to foster regional rivalries. I would've picked up Gonzaga, UConn, Memphis, South Florida San Diego State. Heck I would've integrated the Pac 2 before they went on their mission to try to rebuild the Pac 12.

The worry about splitting football money is short sighted imo, it's not a zero sum game. Many of these schools have big fan bases and with all 4 time zones, the TV money will increase. Not to mention that many of these schools would have taken an extended reduced share deal to get into a P4 school

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The ACC has a fundamental problem that extends beyond just expansion. The ACC went 9-19 against the majors in football, and 1-9 in bowl games so far. The 30-4 record in basketball against the SEC should be statistically impossible. This is not just a down year, this is a collapse of the ACC, and a major improvement by the SEC. Ten years ago, a gap like that would have been impossible between a major conference and the A10 or MWC over 30+ games, now a gap like that exists between two major conferences. That gap between the SEC and ACC in basketball is a canyon, and is in the sport the ACC is supposed to be good in.

There are no easy fixes for that problem. It is clear that the ACC schools have to put more money into their major programs if they want to catch up. Adding Cal and Stanford did nothing for the league, and it is not clear how long SMU's alumni will keep pouring money into that program. It is a bad idea in business to count on a partner to be willing to sustain massive losses indefinitely. SMU is going to need to see a return on its investment at some point.

I think the ACC, and Big 12 for that matter, need to consider something more profound than just adding UConn. A Big East/ACC merger would not be a bad idea. It would give the ACC more content, and access to big cities throughout the north.

I do believe that doing nothing will result in the continued marginalization of both the ACC and Big 12.

 

[uconnyankee]

I don’t see an ACC/BE merger because of current media deals.
The only way it works is if you can negotiate BB media deal separate of FB. Otherwise you have BB schools being relegated to 2nd class conference mates. Don’t see media partners negotiating against themselves.
The ACC, if it can maintain its memberships, is the stronger league. FSU/Clemson/UNC/UVA Trump anything in Big12. And if that league stabilizes its media situation, it could poach Big12.

Unfortunately it will take one domino to fall and the entire league collapses. And Big/SEC call the shots currently.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I don’t see an ACC/BE merger because of current media deals.
The only way it works is if you can negotiate BB media deal separate of FB. Otherwise you have BB schools being relegated to 2nd class conference mates. Don’t see media partners negotiating against themselves.
The ACC, if it can maintain its memberships, is the stronger league. FSU/Clemson/UNC/UVA Trump anything in Big12. And if that league stabilizes its media situation, it could poach Big12.

Unfortunately it will take one domino to fall and the entire league collapses. And Big/SEC call the shots currently.

Many times when a business enterprise starts to slide into decline, it does not do anything to avert to decline. I don't see the ACC doing anything to try to stop it.

That said, it does not need to be an official merger. The smart thing for any group that is slipping to being on the 'outside' is to get allies. Let's see if the ACC is smart or not.

 

[Kolumbo]

I don’t see an ACC/BE merger because of current media deals.
The only way it works is if you can negotiate BB media deal separate of FB. Otherwise you have BB schools being relegated to 2nd class conference mates. Don’t see media partners negotiating against themselves.
The ACC, if it can maintain its memberships, is the stronger league. FSU/Clemson/UNC/UVA Trump anything in Big12. And if that league stabilizes its media situation, it could poach Big12.

Unfortunately it will take one domino to fall and the entire league collapses. And Big/SEC call the shots currently.

I don't agree that the ACC is stronger than the Big 12 but they are both well behind the P2. FSU and Clemson are the keystones holding the ACC together. The Big 12 is on more solid footing, I believe. I don't see any way the ACC poaches the Big 12 because as soon as the GOR is cracked...

The ACC has a fundamental problem that extends beyond just expansion. The ACC went 9-19 against the majors in football, and 1-9 in bowl games so far. The 30-4 record in basketball against the SEC should be statistically impossible. This is not just a down year, this is a collapse of the ACC, and a major improvement by the SEC. Ten years ago, a gap like that would have been impossible between a major conference and the A10 or MWC over 30+ games, now a gap like that exists between two major conferences. That gap between the SEC and ACC in basketball is a canyon, and is in the sport the ACC is supposed to be good in.

There are no easy fixes for that problem. It is clear that the ACC schools have to put more money into their major programs if they want to catch up. Adding Cal and Stanford did nothing for the league, and it is not clear how long SMU's alumni will keep pouring money into that program. It is a bad idea in business to count on a partner to be willing to sustain massive losses indefinitely. SMU is going to need to see a return on its investment at some point.

I think the ACC, and Big 12 for that matter, need to consider something more profound than just adding UConn. A Big East/ACC merger would not be a bad idea. It would give the ACC more content, and access to big cities throughout the north.

I do believe that doing nothing will result in the continued marginalization of both the ACC and Big 12.

I agree that some type of merger/alliance between the Big East and the ACC or Big 12 would be a bold strategic move. There are many excellent basketball programs outside the P4 football conference and there will continue to be many programs because there are kids with talent who will play somewhere. Over 300 basketball programs to 130 football programs. Big 12 and ACC will not catch the P2 in football so try to dominate basketball. Joining with some elite basketball programs may be the only way the Big 12 and ACC have a chance to compete never mind dominate. Drastic times...

 

[GoKU]

The Big 12 and ACC have no clue what to do. Yormark had a plan, but the schools are stupid, so now they just drift along with no forward thinking.

 

[Fishy]

I don’t see an ACC/BE merger because of current media deals.
The only way it works is if you can negotiate BB media deal separate of FB. Otherwise you have BB schools being relegated to 2nd class conference mates. Don’t see media partners negotiating against themselves.
The ACC, if it can maintain its memberships, is the stronger league. FSU/Clemson/UNC/UVA Trump anything in Big12. And if that league stabilizes its media situation, it could poach Big12.

Unfortunately it will take one domino to fall and the entire league collapses. And Big/SEC call the shots currently.

You’re delusional if you think the ACC is stronger.

It’s had the most stabile media situation for the past decade and here they are - nominally a power conference.

The ACC set down their own destruction a long time ago. When markets truly mattered, they invited Virginia Tech, Pitt and Louisville. They could have had the entire eastern seaboard covered, but instead they opted for Pittsburgh, Blacksburg and a few zip codes in Louisville, Kentucky.

When markets truly did not matter, they chased carriage fees and invited Cal, Stanford and SMU.

There’s no bouncing back.

 

[uconn_jack]

I do wonder if the Big East fears the writing on the wall enough to go back into a hybrid football/basketball conference again if an ACC/BE merger were explored. Strategically, content, and media-wise, it could be a great product, but not sure how you fairly sell and distribute the media deal and keep the basketball only schools happy. As others have said, selling/negotiating football and basketball separately wouldn't work. There would have to be something in the conference merger agreement that guaranteed the basketball only schools a certain piece of the pie regardless of the media deal. I just don't see the football first schools agreeing to something like that.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

The ACC has a fundamental problem that extends beyond just expansion. The ACC went 9-19 against the majors in football, and 1-9 in bowl games so far. The 30-4 record in basketball against the SEC should be statistically impossible. This is not just a down year, this is a collapse of the ACC, and a major improvement by the SEC. Ten years ago, a gap like that would have been impossible between a major conference and the A10 or MWC over 30+ games, now a gap like that exists between two major conferences. That gap between the SEC and ACC in basketball is a canyon, and is in the sport the ACC is supposed to be good in.

There are no easy fixes for that problem. It is clear that the ACC schools have to put more money into their major programs if they want to catch up. Adding Cal and Stanford did nothing for the league, and it is not clear how long SMU's alumni will keep pouring money into that program. It is a bad idea in business to count on a partner to be willing to sustain massive losses indefinitely. SMU is going to need to see a return on its investment at some point.

I think the ACC, and Big 12 for that matter, need to consider something more profound than just adding UConn. A Big East/ACC merger would not be a bad idea. It would give the ACC more content, and access to big cities throughout the north.

I do believe that doing nothing will result in the continued marginalization of both the ACC and Big 12.

Agreed. This basketball season should set off all the alarms in the ACC and the Big 12. I think they will merge at some point. If the SEC dominates basketball, the ACC is cooked.

 

[HuskyinWRNY]

Agreed. This basketball season should set off all the alarms in the ACC and the Big 12. I think they will merge at some point. If the SEC dominates basketball, the ACC is cooked.

If they merge, Lucy shows up and we're screwed.

 

[Rufus]

The ACC is further screwed when Cal, Stanford, and SMU eventually receive the same share of revenue as the other schools. They do not pay for themselves in the conference. Adding them was a short-term money grab for the other schools to gain the reduced shares of the three new members.

 

[UConnDan97]

You’re delusional if you think the ACC is stronger.

It’s had the most stabile media situation for the past decade and here they are - nominally a power conference.

The ACC set down their own destruction a long time ago. When markets truly mattered, they invited Virginia Tech, Pitt and Louisville. They could have had the entire eastern seaboard covered, but instead they opted for Pittsburgh, Blacksburg and a few zip codes in Louisville, Kentucky.

When markets truly did not matter, they chased carriage fees and invited Cal, Stanford and SMU.

There’s no bouncing back.

^^^ THIS!

This should be mandatory reading on the Boneyard.

It's the reason why I would prefer the Big12 getting us. Obviously we wouldn't say no to the ACC, but the Big12 is in a much better position and mostly due to the ACC incompetence...

 

[CashewCrew]

The ACC is further screwed when Cal, Stanford, and SMU eventually receive the same share of revenue as the other schools. They do not pay for themselves in the conference. Adding them was a short-term money grab for the other schools to gain the reduced shares of the three new members.

Genuine question: will SMU ever receive a full share?

 

[pj]

You’re delusional if you think the ACC is stronger.

It’s had the most stabile media situation for the past decade and here they are - nominally a power conference.

The ACC set down their own destruction a long time ago. When markets truly mattered, they invited Virginia Tech, Pitt and Louisville. They could have had the entire eastern seaboard covered, but instead they opted for Pittsburgh, Blacksburg and a few zip codes in Louisville, Kentucky.

When markets truly did not matter, they chased carriage fees and invited Cal, Stanford and SMU.

There’s no bouncing back.

The ACC and ESPN seem to agree, since they are milking the brand value of the ACC for current cash rather than building for the future.

SMU, Cal and Stanford were degrading the long term value in exchange for a dollop of current cash based on limited payouts and increased cable fees for a limited term of years.

When the management stops building for the future and starts milking the asset for cash, it means they don't see a future.

This is also why FSU started talking to private equity. If their brand is diminishing in value, they need to capture the value now.

 

[uconnyankee]

You’re delusional if you think the ACC is stronger.

It’s had the most stabile media situation for the past decade and here they are - nominally a power conference.

The ACC set down their own destruction a long time ago. When markets truly mattered, they invited Virginia Tech, Pitt and Louisville. They could have had the entire eastern seaboard covered, but instead they opted for Pittsburgh, Blacksburg and a few zip codes in Louisville, Kentucky.

When markets truly did not matter, they chased carriage fees and invited Cal, Stanford and SMU.

There’s no bouncing back.

Maybe I am delusional….
What schools in Big 12 can measure up with FSU, Clemson, UVA, UNC and Miami?

 

[GoConn]

We unfortunately will not get an invite. I am done having hope

 

[CL82]

We unfortunately will not get an invite. I am done having hope

Easy there, Sybil. Your GoKU persona says we're a lock for the big 12.

 

[pj]

Maybe I am delusional….
What schools in Big 12 can measure up with FSU, Clemson, UVA, UNC and Miami?

If you just add up the value of the individual schools, the ACC is worth more than the B12 after its loss of Texas and Oklahoma ... But, "if we don't hang together, we will surely hang separately" -- and the remaining B12 schools know they need to hang together, while many ACC schools would prefer to hang separately. For that reason the conference is weaker.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

If they merge, Lucy shows up and we're screwed.

I agree....unless they purge programs that don't have strong brands. Reorganize with the 20 strongest brands.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Another play is for the borderline major leagues to approach the Big 10 with an alliance proposal. The Big 10 is clearly the weaker of the P2, and if there is a consolidation to 2, there will soon be a consolidation to 1. The Big 10 is smart enough to see that, and would want allies, maybe an affiliation of some kind, to prevent itself from being marginalized down the road.

 

[uconnyankee]

Many times when a business enterprise starts to slide into decline, it does not do anything to avert to decline. I don't see the ACC doing anything to try to stop it.

That said, it does not need to be an official merger. The smart thing for any group that is slipping to being on the 'outside' is to get allies. Let's see if the ACC is smart or not.

I don’t know if there is anything ACC can do. You can’t force members to stay forever and the GOR has a lifespan.

ACC had the perfect opportunity to merge with the 5-6 schools trying to form PAC 2.0. That would have solved the Cal/Stanford/and SMU debacle. My guess is that train has left station.

I stand by my original statement that if ACC can figure it out, and keep its members for another media deal, it is the #3 league. Whether or not the league can stay intact is a whole different debate.

 

[Tyler2Rings]

The Big 10 is clearly the weaker of the P2

What makes you say that? Big Ten seems to be looking national while the SEC is going for regional superpower

 

[uconnyankee]

If you just add up the value of the individual schools, the ACC is worth more than the B12 after its loss of Texas and Oklahoma ... But, "if we don't hang together, we will surely hang separately" -- and the remaining B12 schools know they need to hang together, while many ACC schools would prefer to hang separately. For that reason the conference is weaker.

That’s kind of why I said ‘IF the ACC can maintain its members’

Both leagues have possible targets, but I agree Big 12 may be more immune.

If ACC can get new deal and not lose members and possibly add Uconn, I’d be fine with that.

Given the history of ACC / Big East and what’s that’s done to Uconn, I think many would love to see Uconn be the next addition to the Big 12 while schools like VT, Pitt, BC, Syr, and Miami deal in some uncertainty. I am no different.

Regardless, I want Uconn in the best possible position to compete at highest levels. If that’s a newly solidified ACC or Big 12 expansion, don’t care. I dont think UConn and its affiliation with Big East and Indy football is sustainable.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

The ACC has a fundamental problem that extends beyond just expansion. The ACC went 9-19 against the majors in football, and 1-9 in bowl games so far. The 30-4 record in basketball against the SEC should be statistically impossible. This is not just a down year, this is a collapse of the ACC, and a major improvement by the SEC. Ten years ago, a gap like that would have been impossible between a major conference and the A10 or MWC over 30+ games, now a gap like that exists between two major conferences. That gap between the SEC and ACC in basketball is a canyon, and is in the sport the ACC is supposed to be good in.

There are no easy fixes for that problem. It is clear that the ACC schools have to put more money into their major programs if they want to catch up. Adding Cal and Stanford did nothing for the league, and it is not clear how long SMU's alumni will keep pouring money into that program. It is a bad idea in business to count on a partner to be willing to sustain massive losses indefinitely. SMU is going to need to see a return on its investment at some point.

I think the ACC, and Big 12 for that matter, need to consider something more profound than just adding UConn. A Big East/ACC merger would not be a bad idea. It would give the ACC more content, and access to big cities throughout the north.

I do believe that doing nothing will result in the continued marginalization of both the ACC and Big 12.

The ACC wouldn’t touch the Big East, as football is not played in the conference. Except for UConn most Big East schools are incredibly cash strapped. It’s basically a basketball only conference, not being able to properly fund other sports, for men and women. Thirdly the academic health of the Big East is on life support.

 

[auggie22]

What makes you say that? Big Ten seems to be looking national while the SEC is going for regional superpower

Was just going to ask the same question. With recent reorganizations I think the B1G is actually the stronger conference and national to boot. I think Saban’s teams provided a national media halo for the SEC that will be hard to maintain.