"Because I can't putt like those guys"...

[boog204]

I can't comment on the golf angle... But there are a bunch of factors in the other sports. Some of it is pure or untapped talent, some of it is innate athletic (or not) ability, and some of it is just plain luck. One of the math teachers in my high school was UConn's go-to guy for math help for recruits. So recruits would, at times, be in our high school. I played two-on-two with the best player in my high school against Ajou Deng and another guy. The level of talent differential there was out of this world. We could hardly get a shot off and Ajou took it easy on us and plain destroyed us. I played in an alumni baseball game against a semi-pro pitcher. Hit a dong off his fastball. The next at-bat he decided to show me what a real slider looked like. Never could touch one. The Scalabrine example is perfect. He was a laughing stock of sorts for many plans as he looked so slow and unathletic. He absolutely destroys people when they challenge him.

 

[Kolumbo]

Putting Bouk in the same category as Rudy Gay is a huge insult to Rudy. While Rudy never won a championship at UConn, he has played almost 1200 games and started almost 800 games. He has been in the league for over 15 years. He's was a very good scorer in the NBA for a decade. Bouk hasn't shown the ability to sustain anything in the NBA for more than a game or two. Rudy has had to work plenty hard to do what he did and be where he is.

Rudy Gay Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Rudy Gay. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

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I am talking about skill and natural ability, and surely Bouknight was on a different level than all of his teammates. This has nothing to do with what anyone does after college or the other attributes required to be great. Bouk didn't even start playing basketball until middle school which shows you how skilled he was. Did you even watch Bouk at UConn? Bouk actually averaged more points per game and more points per minute than Gay. Granted Gay played with better teammates overall but nevertheless.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I am talking about skill and natural ability, and surely Bouknight was on a different level than all of his teammates. This has nothing to do with what anyone does after college or the other attributes required to be great. Bouk didn't even start playing basketball until middle school which shows you how skilled he was. Did you even watch Bouk at UConn? Bouk actually averaged more points per game and more points per minute than Gay. Granted Gay played with better teammates overall but nevertheless.

Your quote is "Guys like Rudy Gay and James Bouknight are incredibly skilled but not the strongest physically on the court and never seemed like the hardest workers to me."

I won't pretend I know how you perceive anything, but IMO, grouping Gay's work ethic as a pro with Bouk's effort as a pro (so far) is a big insult to Rudy. No one makes is this long in the NBA on talent alone. All the aspects of being a professional athlete from being on time for meetings, practices, staying clean with law enforcement, being a good teammate, etc are needed to last as long as Rudy has lasted.

Did many UConn fans have dreams of Rudy being a National Player of the Year in college and leading UConn to championships? Sure. He always had glimpses of transcendent skill. Did UConn fans think he'd make All-star games and lead teams to great success in the NBA? Sure, some did. But he made himself a starter and key player on some real good Grizzlies teams early in his career and has figured out how to be better than an end of bench guy for more than 15 years. And doing that takes way more skill and effort than you give him credit for if you see him and Bouk in the same light.

 

[Chin Diesel]

First of all lol how golf heavy this is. Golfers are hilarious. You’re not special. Golfers are not special. They just think they are.

None of all this matters. There are 3 components to top line success, and it doesn’t matter if you are striking a little white ball with a stick, writing elegant computer code, getting OJ off for murder, tackling fast running backs, or cooking a risotto that will make your knees buckle. It’s all the same

1) inherent aptitude ( born with in simple terms) inherent talent for specific items
2)recognizing the aptitude for that item (this is huge)
3) developing proficiency through incredibly thorough training in the recognized field.

People can be good at any of a number of things by a various combination of a couple of the above. The pros check all boxes to some extent . The true greats ( in every field) are in the 99.9 percentile in at least 2 of those boxes.

This ain’t about athletics , it’s about human potential.

The thing I go back to with golf, is if it was really that simple at the pro level, more people would do it. It's a global sport and pays pretty good money for a game that requires you to walk around on manicured turf and travel all over the world. But it's not much different than other sports, that by the time you finish college, you have a good enough idea if you can make a living from it, or if you are going to make a living doing something else and loading up on club championship trophies.

 

[Husky25]

There was an episode of M*A*S*H, where in saving a soldier's arm from amputation, Winchester's surgery rendered the right hand of the soldier, a concert pianist back in the World, useless. Regardless, Winchester keep referring to his ability in the present tense, culminating with, "I have hands...I can play the notes, but I cannot make music."

Alas, talent can get one only so far. Professional athletes (musicians, artists, etc. Anyone who makes a living at a "hobby.") are nearly sociopathic in their passion and dedication to their singular goal, and few (if any) things are prioritized over achieving it. Weekend warrior have a day job. Weekend warriors play. This is a professional athlete's day job. They are working.

MLB hitters hit 15 balls a piece during pregame batting practice. Fans don't see the triple digit number of balls they've already seen that day, before the gates open.

Larry Bird would shoot 500 jump shots and make 99 consecutive free throws before sunrise, and then go to work on strength and conditioning...before practice.

I believe it was Brianna Stewart who once described a "Geno philosophy (In quotes only because I don't believe he was the first to come up with it)," where they don't stop practicing when they get a play right. They keep practicing until they can't get the play wrong.

Similarly, Tom Brady said after the Patriots comeback Super Bowl win over the Falcons, “I have the answers to the test now. You can’t surprise me on defense. I’ve seen it all. I’ve processed 261 games, I’ve played them all."

And finally, to bring it back to golf, which is what 90% of this thread's posts seem to reference, The Travelers Championship Pro-Am is probably at least the fourth time around the course, in various forms, for most of the golfers, not counting the hours on the practice green or chipping area. They aren't messing around. They are setting up and practicing scenarios.

That is the difference between Joe Montana and Joe sick-pack.

The difference between Derek Jeter and Enrique Wilson is quite a bit more subtle, as they both can recognize a curveball by pitcher's grip and spin. They could both process the information they saw in a split second. They both can probably still throw a frozen rope 200 feet with pace. Whether it was physical ability or mental awareness, one was better equipped/prepared than the other.

 

[husky429]

I've found that your average Joe underestimates just how good pros are at their sport. I know nothing about golf--I'm referring to boxing and basketball (the two sports I competed in).

I was a crappy D2 basketball player that barely saw the floor. When I was in college, I was making 500 3s a day, on top of practice and lifting. I could go to a men's league or charter oak in Manchester and score 11 straight any time I felt like it without breaking a sweat. And I wasn't even good. I'm still terrible. Your average dude running the court at the park can't shoot well or even dribble with both hands without looking down.

Boxing is even worse. Half the planet thinks "I'll see red" and decides they know how to fight. But the reality is your average person doesn't know how to throw a punch without breaking their hand or how to keep their eyes open when they get hit, let alone counters, head movement, and footwork. Again, I was a good (not great) amateur... this isn't even considering what a PROFESSIONAL fighter could do.

Put me in any other sport, and I'll make an absolute fool of myself. I tried to join a pickleball league and lost every single game in the season. It was horrible.

 

[Husky25]

Dang it. After the edit period.

If it's not obvious enough, I meant to say, "Joe six-pack."

 

[Jaydumo20]

I've found that your average Joe underestimates just how good pros are at their sport. I know nothing about golf--I'm referring to boxing and basketball (the two sports I competed in).

I was a crappy D2 basketball player that barely saw the floor. When I was in college, I was making 500 3s a day, on top of practice and lifting. I could go to a men's league or charter oak in Manchester and score 11 straight any time I felt like it without breaking a sweat. And I wasn't even good. I'm still terrible. Your average dude running the court at the park can't shoot well or even dribble with both hands without looking down.

Boxing is even worse. Half the planet thinks "I'll see red" and decides they know how to fight. But the reality is your average person doesn't know how to throw a punch without breaking their hand or how to keep their eyes open when they get hit, let alone counters, head movement, and footwork. Again, I was a good (not great) amateur... this isn't even considering what a PROFESSIONAL fighter could do.

Put me in any other sport, and I'll make an absolute fool of myself. I tried to join a pickleball league and lost every single game in the season. It was horrible.

And you know you still have to be damn good to play D2. I played in a rec league where I had to guard a former D2 guard. He left me flat footed. He did it to everyone else too. And there were guys in that gym who were strutting around with their Rec-Specs acting like kings of the hardwood until D2 came in and made them look like a fool. Now I think of the discrepancy between that D2 dude and the other rec league dudes and it was a mile wide: then I think of the difference between him and a Richie Springs and it was probably just as wide.

 

[Husky25]

And you know you still have to be damn good to play D2. I played in a rec league where I had to guard a former D2 guard. He left me flat footed. He did it to everyone else too. And there were guys in that gym who were strutting around with their Rec-Specs acting like kings of the hardwood until D2 came in and made them look like a fool. Now I think of the discrepancy between that D2 dude and the other rec league dudes and it was a mile wide: then I think of the difference between him and a Richie Springs and it was probably just as wide.

No different with Div. 3 players.

 

[QDOG5]

To me one of the most amazing golf records is consecutive holes without a three putt. 542!! It is held by Freddie Jacobsen, a Swede who is no longer on tour. Crazy.

 

[husky429]

No different with Div. 3 players.

D3 has a pretty wide range. Better D3 teams could probably hang with most D2 teams. Lower-level D3 (there's a bunch in Jersey I know of) barely resembles basketball.

The difference between D2 and D3 is much bigger than between D2 and non-P7ish basketball. Very few D3 players get a scholly and move up because they aren't big enough, usually. D2 guys are moving up to D1 at alarming rates with new transfer rules.

 

[Husky25]

D3 has a pretty wide range. Better D3 teams could probably hang with most D2 teams. Lower-level D3 (there's a bunch in Jersey I know of) barely resembles basketball.

The difference between D2 and D3 is much bigger than between D2 and non-P7ish basketball. Very few D3 players get a scholly and move up because they aren't big enough, usually. D2 guys are moving up to D1 at alarming rates with new transfer rules.

I played rec basketball regularly with a former player for Skidmore.

If not for being about 5'10" with lifts he maybe could have walked-on a mid-major squad back in the day...perhaps at a level of a practice player for the UConn Women. Of course, my memories of those days can legally drink.

The kid (Use the term loosely. He's in his mid-40s by now) could shoot and was smooth with the ball.

 

[1999GoodSon]

Pretty new to the beautiful game, but the only thing I've figured out in golf is that the purpose of every shot is to set up the next shot. Nothing more. Rarely 3 putt and when I chip in, I laugh my head off because it's nothing but luck.

On everything else, I'll attribute and mangle the quote by Jordan on why he was so great which is what I think is the real difference. "Most people aren't willing to do what I am".

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Which is a long-winded way of saying he can't putt like those guys who can maintain their putting skill on professional greens and pressure.

I believe he also neglected to factor in the difference in his approach shots to what professionals are capable of. This alone can be the difference between difficult putts or makeable putts on eight to ten holes per round.

 

[alphasigko]

They say that golf is a "matter of inches". Specifically, the 6 to 8 inches between the ears.

 

[Fishy]

I was playing golf a few weeks back and talk was of a mutual friend who is a phenomenal player: he consistently shoots under par and wins most regional amateur tourneys. He drives the ball a mile, strikes his blades clean and has mastered nearly every golf shot. When asked why he never did it professionally he replied "I tried. Im really good, but I can't putt like those guys"... (even though he never 3 putted)
To our eyes, this guy was the best non-pro golfer we've ever seen. The difference between his game and some of the lower level pros was not noticeable to the casual eye. But, he was miles away from being a pro, because his putting wasn't world class. Also, had a good friend who played in the Rays' class A organization as a southpaw: he threw 100, had a nasty 12-6 deuce but...he never made it past A ball because he wasn't mentally tough enough to shake off a bad inning. "That's what the pros have that I don't" he'd say.

The reason I bring this up is that I often find myself watching NBA games thinking "Adama could play well at this level" or "Tristen is just as physical and good of a scorer" than some of these guards, but the consensus from NBA brass doesn't match that view. Similarly, M Fultz never jumped off the screen as a #1 pick when I watched UW.

As an open discussion

What do you think separates a star (in any sport) from becoming a pro?

Why does an SEC defensive player of the year Line backer never see the field??"

It’s fractions of a fraction of a fraction of some metric.

Like Shabazz Napier is absolutely a superior point guard - of all the point guards on earth, in terms of skill, perhaps there’s a handful better than he is….but he’s a fraction too slow or just fraction off athletically and you can’t be that in the NBA. Like he’s 99.90% of the way there, but the tip of the spear is so pointy that there’s no place for him.

It’s like when fast NFL guys think they’re going to race professional sprinters. They’re really, really fast, but the pro sprinter is 100% and his 100% is going to absolutely thrash your 99%.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Pretty new to the beautiful game, but the only thing I've figured out in golf is that the purpose of every shot is to set up the next shot. Nothing more. Rarely 3 putt and when I chip in, I laugh my head off because it's nothing but luck.

On everything else, I'll attribute and mangle the quote by Jordan on why he was so great which is what I think is the real difference. "Most people aren't willing to do what I am".

Fascinating. This is also how one should approach billiards. Learned from my law school roommate (who was a scratch golfer on his college golf team) who played semi-pro billiards later. Have to think several shots ahead.

Note: I fail to do this most of time in golf. I live for the moment and decide that yes, I can hit a 220 yard fade over those trees with a 3 wood off the deck and land near the green. Occasionally, I'm right. Usually my next shot comes after a penalty. But I love when I pull it off.

 

[jibsey]

I volunteer at pro golf events and stand a couple feet away from these guys on the tees, fairways and greens. They smoke the ball of course but one thing I noticed was they do not even raise an eyebrow when they hit it in the water or blow a shot. They just move on like it never happened. All business, quite different than what we do out there.

 

[MexicoHusky]

I often thought about this during the And1 Tour days. What is the difference between an And1 pro and an NBA pro. In my opinion it was size. And1 guards were 6' or less. NBA guards were the same speed, but taller, stronger and heavier. Same for bigs. They jumped just as high in the NBA, but they were taller, heavier and stronger. But the And1 guys played all the time. Their game's were solid. Not all... but many could shoot. That said, their shooting was probably not as refined as the NBA. Deep shooting was less of a part of the And1 game.

 

[PNolanFan]

I think the biggest difference between pros and us in golf is actually chipping. I played with a guy on the mini tour (what is now korn ferry). And he literally got up and down every single time he missed the green. Probably 2 or 3 greens. When I watch on tv and i see the ball is burried in the grass on a downslope into a glass green and they still get it close. When I watch them put and drive and hit their approach shots it at least makes sense but when they hit these flop shots to 2 feet thats when im really blown away

 

[gtcam]

Coached many talented soccer players. The difference is many but 1 huge one - desire and zero fear of failure. The best are risk takers - they make that nearly impossible pass or shot when you or I would say no way - they say probably not but I know if anyone can it's me.
Of course skill is involved but if you are playing at the highest levels you already have the skills - the better players look better because their attitude and desire allows them to be more relaxed and that in turn makes their body of work look better.
Doing all that without being physically injured is where the luck comes into play.

 

[TWRpastabar]

I often thought about this during the And1 Tour days. What is the difference between an And1 pro and an NBA pro. In my opinion it was size. And1 guards were 6' or less. NBA guards were the same speed, but taller, stronger and heavier. Same for bigs. They jumped just as high in the NBA, but they were taller, heavier and stronger. But the And1 guys played all the time. Their game's were solid. Not all... but many could shoot. That said, their shooting was probably not as refined as the NBA. Deep shooting was less of a part of the And1 game.

I loved And1 but that aint working on actual players. Aidan Mahaney would have the Professor on lock. If they play 1v1 to 11 Professor isnt scoring a point vs Mahaney, let alone a defensively competent D1 guard, let alone an actual NBA player.

 

[freescooter]

The thing I go back to with golf, is if it was really that simple at the pro level, more people would do it. It's a global sport and pays pretty good money for a game that requires you to walk around on manicured turf and travel all over the world. But it's not much different than other sports, that by the time you finish college, you have a good enough idea if you can make a living from it, or if you are going to make a living doing something else and loading up on club championship trophies.

I had a chance to play on a US open course a number of years ago. We were the last group out before they closed it to prep for the Open. The guy who invited me told me they were already doing some things like letting the rough grow. I will tell you I have never played out of rough like that. Miss the fairway even slightly and you could only hack it out into the fairway. A month later the pros were hitting the greens from that same rough and complaining it was tough to get it close even though they were hitting greens. To paraphrase Hank Stram when he once broadcasted a D3 game during an NFL strike, the game is the same. It’s just played by smaller, slower people. I think that applies to pros and weekend warrior types universally.