Beating A Dead Horse- 3 Point Shooting

[jibsey]

As we look to next season and hopefully improvement I was concerned that our roster will be in a Grounhog Day mode regarding 3 point shooting next year. Jalen and Vital are career 32% shooters on 300 and 350 attempts, not a small sample. Gilbert who has only played 9 games was not known to be strong in this area coming in has about 40 attempts for 22%.
Jalen and Alterique are both guys that drive the ball and create their own shot and with Larrier gone who are they kicking to? Are we hoping for someone to have a Giffey like transformation? Our best case scenario is that everyone coming next season stays but that in itself does not solve this problem which if unsolved basically leaves us unable to compete with good teams.

 

[Balker]

I don't buy the "we don't have good shooters" argument.
- How many reps are they putting up?
- What kind of shots are they taking? Are they in rhythm? Are they making an extra pass?
- Most of our players had little/no D1 experience coming into this year, had too much thrown on their shoulders.

This team didn't know how to play together. A bunch of new kids, lost our best true guard again, and a really tough early schedule that the coach didn't prepare them for. Season over. Period. We didn't magically recruit the worst HS shooters. We just did a terrible job at keeping and building a basketball team with the players we had from 2015 on. And the problems keep compounding with each annual exodus.

If Ollie somehow can keep a team in tact this year, I think he's got a chance to turn things around next. But I tend to doubt he doesn't lose 5-6 players or more.

 

[August_West]

As we look to next season and hopefully improvement I was concerned that our roster will be in a Grounhog Day mode regarding 3 point shooting next year. Jalen and Vital are career 32% shooters on 300 and 350 attempts, not a small sample. Gilbert who has only played 9 games was not known to be strong in this area coming in has about 40 attempts for 22%.
Jalen and Alterique are both guys that drive the ball and create their own shot and with Larrier gone who are they kicking to? Are we hoping for someone to have a Giffey like transformation? Our best case scenario is that everyone coming next season stays but that in itself does not solve this problem which if unsolved basically leaves us unable to compete with good teams.

Polley should be able to Drain at a fair clip.

Jalen's has to come up. I think it will. Vital's problem is shot selection. He's a chucker at heart.

 

[Palatine]

Jalen shot 27% from the arc his freshman year.
His sophomore year it was 35%.
And this year 32%.
If he gets help in the back court, that percentage could climb and be his best year.

 

[PAHusky]

Jalen has a decent stroke but he takes a bit to get it off, similar to Rodney like that. Polley has nice form. Gilbert seemed to have ok form but was all over the place shooting from deep, if I remember correctly. Vital has the ball a bit too much in front of his face but he has a nice high release point because of it. His issue, as mentioned above, is that he has a hole in his brain where his shooting conscience should be.

 

[andy34]

I don't buy the "we don't have good shooters" argument.
- How many reps are they putting up?
- What kind of shots are they taking? Are they in rhythm? Are they making an extra pass?
- Most of our players had little/no D1 experience coming into this year, had too much thrown on their shoulders.

This team didn't know how to play together. A bunch of new kids, lost our best true guard again, and a really tough early schedule that the coach didn't prepare them for. Season over. Period. We didn't magically recruit the worst HS shooters. We just did a terrible job at keeping and building a basketball team with the players we had from 2015 on. And the problems keep compounding with each annual exodus.

If Ollie somehow can keep a team in tact this year, I think he's got a chance to turn things around next. But I tend to doubt he doesn't lose 5-6 players or more.

Completely agreed. Just looking at the stats, it's insane how bad we are at shooting 3s. BUT when I watch the game, so many of them are Vital bailing out a possession with a deep bomb, Larrier trying to go solo, and shots otherwise not within the flow of a good offense. Our shooters aren't awful, our offense is. Not much movement, and the movement that occurs never seems to accomplish anything. Very hard to actually get shooters open the way we play.

 

[boog204]

what needs to be considered is how many of these shots are off the dribble, contested, or late in the clock as opposed to "good" looks where guys are in rhythm, feet set, etc. We tend to take a lot of tough shots because our offense, poor spacing, poor screening, etc. does not afford us great looks. I would say we are an average shooting team that takes (forced?) to take below average shots.

 

[gtcam]

JA will improve if he wants to elevate his stock for the next level
Plain and simple
That is job #1 in the off season
The rest of his game needs a little tweaking but the kid is a warrior and got jobbed on the all conference voting

 

[my2cents]

You don't buy that we have don't have good shooters??? Numbers don't lie, we don't have good shooters. Sometimes the truth is hard to accept.

 

[Huskybass]

You don't buy that we have don't have good shooters??? Numbers don't lie, we don't have good shooters. Sometimes the truth is hard to accept.

We get so many bad or forced shots due to the completely deficient "offense" that is being run. The %s would rise a bit if they were getting good clean looks like guys on other teams get.

 

[J187Money]

We get so many bad or forced shots due to the completely deficient "offense" that is being run. The %s would rise a bit if they were getting good clean looks like guys on other teams get.

I remember talking to someone years ago that was screwing around with Burrell in a gym with only a couple of people around. He hit something like 22/25 threes, relaxed and uncontested. Of course you can't do that in game conditions, so of course the type of looks matter. The offense is not efficient at all and we take a lot of bad shots.

 

[Glastonhusky]

JA will improve if he wants to elevate his stock for the next level
Plain and simple
That is job #1 in the off season
The rest of his game needs a little tweaking but the kid is a warrior and got jobbed on the all conference voting

Agree, Jalen just needs to get in the gym and take 500+ shots a day. Vital will improve his % with practice and better shot selection. Polley is showing improvement game by game. Having said that, if a spot does open up I wouldn't mind taking a 3 pt shooter grad transfer. The kid from Northeastern mentioned in a thread above would do just fine.

 

[Matrim55]

You don't buy that we have don't have good shooters??? Numbers don't lie, we don't have good shooters. Sometimes the truth is hard to accept.

We have adequate shooters who are forced to take bad shots because we run the most simplistic, regressive offensive sets possible.

None of these guys is Ray or Ben or Bazz, but all of them are 3-to-5 percent better than what they've shown over the last few years if you put them into an even half-decent set.

In a nutshell: Our biggest problem isn't that we have bad shooters. It's that we have an offense that only generates bad shots.

PS - that said, every perimeter player on the team should be taking 1000 shots a day this summer.

 

[auror]

We have adequate shooters who are forced to take bad shots because we run the most simplistic, regressive offensive sets possible.

None of these guys is Ray or Ben or Bazz, but all of them are 3-to-5 percent better than what they've shown over the last few years if you put them into an even half-decent set.

In a nutshell: Our biggest problem isn't that we have bad shooters. It's that we have an offense that only generates bad shots.

PS - that said, every perimeter player on the team should be taking 1000 shots a day this summer.

Anderson is our best window into this. Factoring in previous steady improvement, he failed to meet his expected shooting by like 0.08, which is a pretty huge effect (34% to 26%).

 

[boog204]

You don't buy that we have don't have good shooters??? Numbers don't lie, we don't have good shooters. Sometimes the truth is hard to accept.

My point was that far too many of our shots are off the dribble, heat check shots, or just plain bad shots (I'm looking at you Vital). If you get me an open look with my feet set, in rhythm, and without a guy hugging me, I'll hit shots. If I have to shoot off the dribble or have a hand in my face, I won't.

Roscoe Smith was lauded as a 3 point shooter coming in:

"Roscoe can just flat-out shoot the cover off the ball”
"A six-foot-eight combo-forward with long arms, good athleticism, and a silky smooth jumper"
"He could play any of the five positions. He gets a lot of double teams, which opens up assist opportunities, and he can score. He's a great three-point shooter."
"This kid is the total package, ball handling, rebounding, blocked shots, jumpshot, 3 pointers, etc"

and there's more... Roscoe, playing against inferior competition or in an incredible system (Oak Hill), was apparently a very effective shooter. Put him against very good players in a system that relied more and more on players making plays (Kemba, Bazz, Boat), and he was a robust 28% from 3 in college. Was he just poorly scouted? Perhaps. But I'm fairly certain he was named the best perimeter shooting 3 coming in, won a post-season three point contest, and was expected to be our next great wing. Guys shoot better when they get shots in rhythm. That's a pretty big rarity in our system.

 

[gtcam]

My point was that far too many of our shots are off the dribble, heat check shots, or just plain bad shots (I'm looking at you Vital). If you get me an open look with my feet set, in rhythm, and without a guy hugging me, I'll hit shots. If I have to shoot off the dribble or have a hand in my face, I won't.

Roscoe Smith was lauded as a 3 point shooter coming in:

"Roscoe can just flat-out shoot the cover off the ball”
"A six-foot-eight combo-forward with long arms, good athleticism, and a silky smooth jumper"
"He could play any of the five positions. He gets a lot of double teams, which opens up assist opportunities, and he can score. He's a great three-point shooter."
"This kid is the total package, ball handling, rebounding, blocked shots, jumpshot, 3 pointers, etc"

and there's more... Roscoe, playing against inferior competition or in an incredible system (Oak Hill), was apparently a very effective shooter. Put him against very good players in a system that relied more and more on players making plays (Kemba, Bazz, Boat), and he was a robust 28% from 3 in college. Was he just poorly scouted? Perhaps. But I'm fairly certain he was named the best perimeter shooting 3 coming in, won a post-season three point contest, and was expected to be our next great wing. Guys shoot better when they get shots in rhythm. That's a pretty big rarity in our system.

Scotty Harrelson?
JC had his issues with supposed 3pt phenoms

 

[boog204]

Scotty Harrelson?
JC had his issues with supposed 3pt phenoms

Haralson was a end of the year throw-in who may have been our most out of shape player ever. He actually could shoot a bit, though. It was just never going to happen here.


2008-09 UConn Big East 7 26 .269
2010-11 Tulsa CUSA 82 219 .374
2011-12 Tulsa CUSA 90 221 .407
2012-13 Tulsa CUSA 76 211 .360

 

[my2cents]

Throughout UCONNs Calhoun run, we have seen great 3 point shooters. Brian Fair, Ray Allen, Rashad Anderson, Ben Gordon, Albert Mouring, Neils Giffey.....they made threes that were open threes, less open threes, etc.
Our current group of shooters is nowhere near anyone in the above group. To say that they would make more threes if the took better open shots is true...but isnt that like saying "Our Hitters" would hit better if they lobbed the pitch in right down the middle?

 

[Huskybass]

Throughout UCONNs Calhoun run, we have seen great 3 point shooters. Brian Fair, Ray Allen, Rashad Anderson, Ben Gordon, Albert Mouring, Neils Giffey.....they made threes that were open threes, less open threes, etc.
Our current group of shooters is nowhere near anyone in the above group. To say that they would make more threes if the took better open shots is true...but isnt that like saying "Our Hitters" would hit better if they lobbed the pitch in right down the middle?

It's a little different though in that the coaching staff and teammates can set you up to succeed, as opposed to facing pitching from the opponent.

Use Vital as an example. He takes what I would deem to be a lot of bad shots. If he was in an offense where the ball movement was crisp he probably would get some better open looks from a few feet closer and he would likely shoot a higher percentage. Just my opinion.

 

[HuskyHawk]

My point was that far too many of our shots are off the dribble, heat check shots, or just plain bad shots (I'm looking at you Vital). If you get me an open look with my feet set, in rhythm, and without a guy hugging me, I'll hit shots. If I have to shoot off the dribble or have a hand in my face, I won't.

Roscoe Smith was lauded as a 3 point shooter coming in:

"Roscoe can just flat-out shoot the cover off the ball”
"A six-foot-eight combo-forward with long arms, good athleticism, and a silky smooth jumper"
"He could play any of the five positions. He gets a lot of double teams, which opens up assist opportunities, and he can score. He's a great three-point shooter."
"This kid is the total package, ball handling, rebounding, blocked shots, jumpshot, 3 pointers, etc"

and there's more... Roscoe, playing against inferior competition or in an incredible system (Oak Hill), was apparently a very effective shooter. Put him against very good players in a system that relied more and more on players making plays (Kemba, Bazz, Boat), and he was a robust 28% from 3 in college. Was he just poorly scouted? Perhaps. But I'm fairly certain he was named the best perimeter shooting 3 coming in, won a post-season three point contest, and was expected to be our next great wing. Guys shoot better when they get shots in rhythm. That's a pretty big rarity in our system.

Our offensive approach creates bad three point shooters. It would be an astonishing coincidence if every players who could once shoot, suddenly forgot how when they got to Storrs. It's an Occam's Razor explanation. Our offense isn't built around creating open looks from behind the arc, and we don't do a good job of it. Other teams use motion and ball movement to free up three point shots by design. Our designed play is a guard driving to the hoop against at least 3 defenders.

 

[Matrim55]

Our current group of shooters is nowhere near anyone in the above group. To say that they would make more threes if the took better open shots is true...but isnt that like saying "Our Hitters" would hit better if they lobbed the pitch in right down the middle?

No. You can't force an opposing pitcher to lob one down the middle. Good ball movement and off-the-ball movement can force an opposing defense to leave a shooter open, though.

When's the last time you saw that from UConn?

 

[my2cents]

No. You can't force an opposing pitcher to lob one down the middle. Good ball movement and off-the-ball movement can force an opposing defense to leave a shooter open, though.

When's the last time you saw that from UConn?

I agree our offense is not well run AND we are just avg to below avg three point shooters

 

[mauconnfan]

No. You can't force an opposing pitcher to lob one down the middle. Good ball movement and off-the-ball movement can force an opposing defense to leave a shooter open, though.

When's the last time you saw that from UConn?

We have crappy shooters it's much simpler than you'd like to admit. Doesn't matter what offense we run or ball movement, they can't shoot even wide open. Need better shooters to make better percentages period.

 

[HuskyHawk]

We have crappy shooters it's much simpler than you'd like to admit. Doesn't matter what offense we run or ball movement, they can't shoot even wide open. Need better shooters to make better percentages period.

Disagree completely. I think it’s 90% the offense. I think it’s a bridge too far to think that we’ve just been unlucky that 100% of our recruits over a four year period became substandard shooters in college. The offense turns good shooters into mediocre shooters and mediocre shooters into bad ones.

 

[Fishy]

Mau’s right - this is a simple issue. We have bad shooters.

Adams is a decent shooter, but he has an entire defense camped on his shoetops, so he’s not very effective. Larrier’s better than that, but he needs a world of time and space to get off a shot.

The rest...bad. Just bad. Bad from close, bad from a distance. Bad.

No amount of ball movement is going to make Vital or Anderson or Polley or Whaley or Diarra or Williams competent shooters. And in wishing for better ball movement or a more fluid offense, it bears mention that these guys are part of that problem as well. Offensive limitations for miles and miles. The only thing about these guys that doesn’t have a limitation is their limitations. In that regard, they are unlimited.

These are kids who have been playing basketball and have been coached to play basketball since they came out of the womb, so the idea that they just need to hoist up a few hundred a day to fix what ails them is a fantasy.