Bazz best UConn point guard ever!

[johnhuskies95]

The competition matters, no? Teams stayed together longer, players didn't leave as early, and so the competition was much more difficult in 1998-2000 than in 2011-2014. It's not surprising, then, that his efficiency would be up.

I mean, there were 5 teams that made the dance from the Big East in '99, and as of now we're on pace for 5 from the American in '14. Miami was a 2 seed and St. Johns was a 3, but I don't know if they're that much better from the best 2 teams out of Louisville/Memphis/Cincinnati.

However, it is important to note that Shabazz has only played 2 of his 6 games against those teams thus far.

 

[tzznandrew]

I mean, there were 5 teams that made the dance from the Big East in '99, and as of now we're on pace for 5 from the American in '14. Miami was a 2 seed and St. Johns was a 3, but I don't know if they're that much better from the best 2 teams out of Louisville/Memphis/Cincinnati.

However, it is important to note that Shabazz has only played 2 of his 6 games against those teams thus far.

True. But it's not just that. The general level was much better across college since players stuck around longer.

But, regardless, I think we're splitting hairs a bit here. Both of these guys are all-time Husky greats.

 

[Inyatkin]

I'm a baseball fan, and like a lot of fans these days I have no patience for old-timers going on about grittiness or intangibles or whatever. If you can hit, you're valuable, the end.
Basketball is different, I guess because it's so teammate-dependent. So when it comes to someone like El-Amin, I can see that his stats don't match up to others and I should probably discount the idea that he "willed his team on" or the kind of thing you hear from idiot commentators, but I don't know. The guy went 0-for-12 against Gonzaga and you knew he had no fear taking the next shot. There was something different about the guy.
Not saying he's my choice for best Husky ever, but if you were putting together an actual team and not just an all-star collection, he might be the guy you'd want.

 

[Dogbreath2U]

And if Bazz had Okafor, he'd be averaging 3 or 4 less a game at minimum. He's a really good player but people are getting a bit carried away. He has no real shot at any national awards and won't be a lottery pick, which Ben was as a junior. We're seeing a very good senior in a game where very few of the best players stay more than two seasons. The experience shows. For example, from the same class, Kyrie Irving and Brandon Knight have a few years in the NBA already.

You can't put Ben into the PG debate. He was not the point guard, or a point guard.

I would throw in one more pro-Bazz bit: He has been an amazingly clutch player for the last 2 years, making big basket after big basket...raining 3's during OT games last year, hitting key baskets to stop runs, coming up big when needed over and over. BTW, if a transcendent single season is what defines the greatest UConn PG, then Kemba is and will always be the best IMHO. I think that there is a somewhat separate category for best career PG and I think that Bazz is in the running for that. I would also support those who feel that Bazz has the weakest supporting cast of anyone who is in the Greatest PG debate.

 

[James]

Comp this year in ncaas is as strong as its been in YEARS ! College got the hype

 

[DogMania]

Wow this is a long thread, though worthy of such.

Using stats alone often doesn't tell the whole story. I like to put a lot of weight on the good ole eye test, though the longer time elapses, the harder it is to remember exactly how a player looked when they played.

With that said, I'm hard-pressed to not include Shabazz along with Kemba as UConn's best PGs ever. I know some have mentioned Khalid Al Amin belongs in that same group, and maybe between the two. But I don't think Khalid was nearly the complete point guard the other two have come close to being. Like Bazz, you could describe his game as crafty, but I don't remember KEA carying the offense like the other two.

There's no doubt that Kemba is a far better athlete than Shabazz. No guard in UConn history has been better at taking his man off the dribble and getting to the basket then Kemba. He was very Iverson like in that regard. Even when defenders knew that he was going to drive they still could rarely contain him. And if they did play him for the drive, he would step back and knock down the J.

I think Shabazz has been equally as effective at creating his own shot, but does it in a different way. You could say that Kemba sets up his jump shot with his drive, while Shabazz sets up his drive with his jump shot. Kemba used his athleticism along with misdirection to create space for his shot and his drive. Bazz on the other hand has all sorts of clever tricks to get defenders off balance to create just enough space for him to get off his jump shot or drive to the basket. In the last game, Napier used some tricky footwork and shifted his weight in such a way that got the defender moving in one direction while he stepped back in the other direction and knocked down an open jump shot just outside the top of the key. He is the most clever and creative guard that I have ever seen wear a UConn uniforms. He has an NBA type step back jumper that he can hit even out to 3 point range. He's such a fun player to watch. The other day Jay Bilas kept on staying, "How do you stop that?"

I think Bazz sees the floor better than Kamba and is a better passer. This is one area that the stats are in his favor. Some may have forgotten that when Bazz was on the floor with Kemba, he often played the lead guard allowing Walker to move of the ball. It would have been amazing to see them play together at their peak, but at least we were able to see them on the floor at the same time even though Napier was just a freshman.

One thing I find interesting is that even though Kemba is a superior athletes, Shabazz is the better defender. He uses his quick hands and excellent defensive instincts to defend his position. So I'm not sure if he has the quickness to defend at the next level. I think he'll find it challenging to stay in front of bigger, stronger and quicker point guards.

What separates these two from all the other guards, is their ability to make shots during winning time. What probably separates these two from one another is all the winning time shots Bazz made during that 11 game run that ended with the Huskies cutting down the nets for the program's most improbable championships. I don't think that Shabazz has to take this team on the same type of run to close the gap. There is a lot of ball yet to be played and I think in the end most will find it very difficult to separate these two great lead guards.

 

[Huskybass]

Bazz is averaging 17.8 points 6 rebounds and 5.9 assists. He is averaging 21.9 points in AAC games and has been conference player of the week three times. This is probably the best season ever by a UConn point guard not named Kemba.

 

[Rico444]

I doubt that. You generally don't see those types of assist numbers in college basketball. There have only been three 10+ assists per game seasons (two of which were by Avery Johnson at Southern U), and fourteen 9+ seasons, of which only 5 were in major conferences...and the most recent of those was 1995.

His assists might go up a little, but probably more like from 5.9 to 6.9 or so.

I doubt that. You generally don't see those types of assist numbers in college basketball. There have only been three 10+ assists per game seasons (two of which were by Avery Johnson at Southern U), and fourteen 9+ seasons, of which only 5 were in major conferences...and the most recent of those was 1995.

His assists might go up a little, but probably more like from 5.9 to 6.9 or so.

The argument was that Gordon's PPG went way up without Okafor, but that assists wouldn't do the same adding Okafor? Emeka didn't create his own offense; he was a back to the basket scorer for the most part. Which means most of his baskets would be assisted. Also keeping in mind that Emeka averaged 20 PPG, where do you think those assists are coming from? I would be stunned if Shabazz didn't average 9 per game with Okafor.

 

[Waquoit]

It sort of seems unfair to discount the statistical impressiveness of Shabazz's season - because he plays with inferior teammates to KEA - and then, in the final paragraph, say that you are going to weight postseason success (a tournament in which his teammates will surely have to play well in for UConn to advance) so heavily in your final evaluation. If there is going to be a caveat to his statistical output, the same should probably be applied to anything we discuss regarding team accomplishments.

For the sake of argument, let's just compare the KEA the junior with the senior Bazz. That's more of an apples to apples situation. Neither had a ton of scoring help, though KEA had more muscle up front. KEA outplayed Gibert Arenas. He led the team to wins against 2 teams that went on to get 1 seeds (while losing to a 3rd). They went to the finals of the BET. If you want to talk stats, you have to factor in the competition level. The Big East was much. much tougher than the AAC and the OOC schedule that year blows away this year. Iowa, Duke, Arizona, Texas and NCAA champ Michigan State. Only one loss came against a team that won less than 20 games and that was the season opener. Again, this isn't about Bazz, this is about reminding people how great Khalid was. That guy that ranked him below Sheffer and the like, I'm not blaming drugs. It must have been eating paint chips as a kid.

 

[Gurleyman]

We'll probably never have a team with one ball-dominant passing PG again like we did in 2005-06 with MW and no other ballhandlers - and he averaged 8.6, so 9 is just about the limit of feasibility. With Okafor, Taliek averaged 6.5 and Gordon 4.5, so it's possible that you could split those same 11 assists up 9 and 2 if you had Bazz and a guy like Denham at the 2 instead of Boat or Gordon taking up some ballhandling and assists.

But part of what made Okafor an effective scorer here was that we ran a lot of good offense for him - cross screens to put him in motion, so he could catch and shoot over a late-recovering defender. That type of offense is more effective if you have more than one entry point on the floor (i.e. if the play isn't there on Taliek's side, swing it to Ben and try it again as the ball rotates).

 

[tzznandrew]

The argument was that Gordon's PPG went way up without Okafor, but that assists wouldn't do the same adding Okafor? Emeka didn't create his own offense; he was a back to the basket scorer for the most part. Which means most of his baskets would be assisted. Also keeping in mind that Emeka averaged 20 PPG, where do you think those assists are coming from? I would be stunned if Shabazz didn't average 9 per game with Okafor.

Well, he got those assists from our all-time leader in assists, Taliek Brown, who averaged 6.5 with junior Okafor. You're imagining Shabazz averaging more assists per game than Marcus Williams. I doubt that. Shabazz has good court vision, but it wasn't as good as Williams'

 

[tzznandrew]

That guy that ranked him below Sheffer and the like, I'm not blaming drugs. It must have been eating paint chips as a kid.

He was better than Sheffer, but let's also not downplay him. He struggled in the NCAAs, which is why we don't rank them as highly as others.

But, he averaged 12 ppg, 4.8 apg, and 3.8 rpg on 50/40/70.5 per cent shooting his freshmen year; 11, 5.5, and 4.7 on 40/36/80 his junior year; and 16, 6, and 5 on 43/40/85 his senior year.

Those are damn good numbers. And he made third team all Big East his freshman year, and second team his sophomore and junior season.

 

[Gurleyman]

For the sake of argument, let's just compare the KEA the junior with the senior Bazz. That's more of an apples to apples situation. Neither had a ton of scoring help, though KEA had more muscle up front. KEA outplayed Gibert Arenas. He led the team to wins against 2 teams that went on to get 1 seeds (while losing to a 3rd). They went to the finals of the BET. If you want to talk stats, you have to factor in the competition level. The Big East was much. much tougher than the AAC and the OOC schedule that year blows away this year. Iowa, Duke, Arizona, Texas and NCAA champ Michigan State. Only one loss came against a team that won less than 20 games and that was the season opener. Again, this isn't about Bazz, this is about reminding people how great Khalid was. That guy that ranked him below Sheffer and the like, I'm not blaming drugs. It must have been eating paint chips as a kid.

I think time has led me to appreciate Khalid's junior season a little more, since Jake was the only pro on that team (and a marginal one at that). There just wasn't an abundance of talent on that team - a lot of decent college role players, and young guys (Deng, Wrenn) who were not anything close to what we hoped. But going through that season, we felt like a disappointment. Down by 30 at the half to Michigan State, blown out at the Dome, swept by St. John's and Miami, off court distractions from Wrenn and Jake. We played better at the end, and perhaps could have taken advantage of the blown-up bracket without KEA's injury and we would remember that team as one that overcame a lot of adversity and peaked late.

Gilbert Arenas played the 2 at Arizona. Jason Gardner was the point guard, who KEA dominated, although Gardner was a freshman (so was Arenas).

 

[Rico444]

Well, he got those assists from our all-time leader in assists, Taliek Brown, who averaged 6.5 with junior Okafor. You're imagining Shabazz averaging more assists per game than Marcus Williams. I doubt that. Shabazz has good court vision, but it wasn't as good as Williams'

Shabazz doesn't have the court vision Marcus had. Nobody does; his vision was on another level. But Shabazz still has great court vision. And he is a much, much better scorer than Williams, which puts a lot more pressure on the defense than Marcus ever did, whose offense was mostly limited to open 3s.

Lets also keep in mind that this year, Shabazz has an extremely raw freshman at center, who most games is a non-factor offensively, Phil Nolan, who has some potential but spends most of his time spinning around in circles in the paint and throwing up low-percentage shots, and Tyler Olande, who is a decent scorer but only puts up one or two shots a game. Replace them with the best offensive center in the game, someone who is highly efficient and puts up a high volume of shots per game, as well. Also, and I may be wrong on this but can't check on my phone, I would imagine that adding emeka's rebounding and defensive efficiency would lead to this team playing at a quicker pace, and therefore getting more possessions each game. Add all of that up, and yes I think Shabazz would add at least 3 assists per game to his line.

 

[RichZ]

I don't think it's possible to overlook Bazz's overtime dominance in his Junior season. It demonstrated the unbelievable will-to-win that defines Bazz.
Hmmm. Kind of like Kemba in one-and-dones.

Like Kemba, Bazz has benefited from the occasional bit of luck ( magic? karma? ). Witness Kemba's Texas killer and Bazz's Florida destroyer. But that's part of what makes them special players.

How do we factor Bazz's rebounding prowess into the mix? 6 foot guards don't lead their teams in rebounding. Yes, we have no size up front. But he damned sure ain't the biggest or the bulkiest guy on the floor. He just has a sense of where the ball is going, and the determination to be there when the ball arrives. Given the ineptitude of our bigs, he probably gives us 3 posessions a game that we wouldn't have otherwise had.

Kemba's still at the top of my list, but Bazz is a close second in my book.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Comp this year in ncaas is as strong as its been in YEARS ! College got the hype

You're kidding? I think college basketball is pretty awful right now. There's not a team out there that compares to the 99 or 04 UConn teams. The old Georgetown Pat Ewing and Tark UNLV teams would crush these modern teams.

 

[CTBasketball]

People forget Kemba was an important part to the 09' Final Four team.

Bazz isn't even in the discussion unless he goes to the Final Four. If he wins it, then the debate should heat up a little.

 

[nomar]

Your one sentence was the only one that mattered because it wasn't true, unless being ranked #1 is the only criteria for being talked about as NPOY. And see my edit, if Kemba didn't win the regular season BE POY, he definitely wasn't fluctuating with Fredette as 1a & 1b all year for POY honors.

I don't follow your first sentence.

On your second sentence, we all know that Hansbrough won because Kemba's BE numbers weren't as good as his overall numbers (and because his shot happened to be struggling right when the BE POY voting came out). Nobody besides Ben H's mother thought he'd put together a better full season than Kemba had. The result was a joke to begin with, but the only reason there was even a justification for Kemba losing that vote was that many of his best games were OOC.

Edit: I see the links above regarding the pub Kemba was getting in February. OK, so for 3 weeks, when Kemba was struggling in the BE regular season, he fell to 3rd or 4th in the NPOY race. That didn't last long.

 

[nomar]

People forget Kemba was an important part to the 09' Final Four team.

Bazz isn't even in the discussion unless he goes to the Final Four. If he wins it, then the debate should heat up a little.

I'd say Bazz was an important part of a Final Four, too.

 

[CTBasketball]

I'd say Bazz was an important part of a Final Four, too.

Correct, but Shabazz as the team's leader/go-to guy, hasn't won anything. We won 2 games in the 2012 BET, got 1st rounded in 2012, no postseason in 2013...

 

[aceboon]

I don't follow your first sentence.

On your second sentence, we all know that Hansbrough won because Kemba's BE numbers weren't as good as his overall numbers (and because his shot happened to be struggling right when the BE POY voting came out). Nobody besides Ben H's mother thought he'd put together a better full season than Kemba had. The result was a joke to begin with, but the only reason there was even a justification for Kemba losing that vote was that many of his best games were OOC.

Edit: I see the links above regarding the pub Kemba was getting in February. OK, so for 3 weeks, when Kemba was struggling in the BE regular season, he fell to 3rd or 4th in the NPOY race. That didn't last long.

You're having a tough time following along my friend. You said nobody is talking about Bazz as a potential POY except on this board, I posted 2 NATIONAL sources that had Bazz ranked #3 & #2 as of last week, you then shoot those down because he's not ranked #1 and won't ever be ranked #1, even though Bazz was actually #1 on both lists right after the Florida game. So now your point is that the only way for Bazz to be talked about as a potential POY is to be #1 on everyone's list at this point in time?? Then you brought up Kemba never having the fluctuation during his '10-'11 season that Bazz has had, even though tcf15 just pulled up a mountain of evidence that he had fell out favor with the media when he was throwing up clunkers during the BE regular season and the team was playing .500 ball. Sh t, just last month upstater had posted how Goodman's slack jawed ass had Kemba as a 2nd team All American at the conclusion of the regular season back when he worked at Fox Sports. You seem to be forgetting that the media didn't start riding Kemba's jock again until the BET and then of course the tourney. Kemba was getting ripped on this very board when he was struggling, most notably when he lost the Marquette game in Hartford damn near by himself with his play at the end of the game. Again, none of this is to slight Kemba, I'm just not understanding this narrative that some of you guys are trying to write that Bazz isn't getting NPOY talk when the evidence is right in front of your faces that he's right in the mix.

 

[HuskyHawk]

For the sake of argument, let's just compare the KEA the junior with the senior Bazz. That's more of an apples to apples situation. Neither had a ton of scoring help, though KEA had more muscle up front. KEA outplayed Gibert Arenas. He led the team to wins against 2 teams that went on to get 1 seeds (while losing to a 3rd). They went to the finals of the BET. If you want to talk stats, you have to factor in the competition level. The Big East was much. much tougher than the AAC and the OOC schedule that year blows away this year. Iowa, Duke, Arizona, Texas and NCAA champ Michigan State. Only one loss came against a team that won less than 20 games and that was the season opener. Again, this isn't about Bazz, this is about reminding people how great Khalid was. That guy that ranked him below Sheffer and the like, I'm not blaming drugs. It must have been eating paint chips as a kid.

If you are talking about me, I didn't rank him below Sheffer, I said Sheffer's final year was comparable, and it was. Minor statistical differences as pointed out by tzznandrew. Not as good, but not that far off. By the way, I don't think these 26, 27 and 30 point games from Shabazz will continue. He'll be back in the mid-high teens mostly.

I do rank Bazz behind Chris Smith, both as a career (which isn't even close actually), and this season compared to Smith's senior year). Here are the numbers. At the career level, I'd put Smith #1, ahead of Kemba, while Kemba has the best single season, obviously. "Best" is hard to define and means something different to each of us.

 

[nomar]

You're having a tough time following along my friend. You said nobody is talking about Bazz as a potential POY except on this board, I posted 2 NATIONAL sources that had Bazz ranked #3 & #2 as of last week, you then shoot those down because he's not ranked #1 and won't ever be ranked #1, even though Bazz was actually #1 on both lists right after the Florida game. So now your point is that the only way for Bazz to be talked about as a potential POY is to be #1 on everyone's list at this point in time?? Then you brought up Kemba never having the fluctuation during his '10-'11 season that Bazz has had, even though tcf15 just pulled up a mountain of evidence that he had fell out favor with the media when he was throwing up clunkers during the BE regular season and the team was playing .500 ball. Sh t, just last month upstater had posted how Goodman's slack jawed ass had Kemba as a 2nd team All American at the conclusion of the regular season back when he worked at Fox Sports. You seem to be forgetting that the media didn't start riding Kemba's jock again until the BET and then of course the tourney. Kemba was getting ripped on this very board when he was struggling, most notably when he lost the Marquette game in Hartford damn near by himself with his play at the end of the game. Again, none of this is to slight Kemba, I'm just not understanding this narrative that some of you guys are trying to write that Bazz isn't getting NPOY talk when the evidence is right in front of your faces that he's right in the mix.

I would challenge nearly every sentence in your comment, right from the get go where you conflate my original aside with my sarcastic response to john. I can follow what you're doing quite well. For the hundredth time, I'm not arguing that Kemba's better than Napier because the press thinks Kemba's better. I understand that you saw that as something to win an internet fight over, because I didn't precisely define terms and time limitations. But I guess that's what we're debating at this point; the original question of who's actually better isn't what we're talking about anymore.

What narrative? Take off the tinfoil hat. I'm not one to argue "waaaah, the media has it out for UConn." I'm happy to see Bazz has bounced back into the top-3 in some rankings. He'd dropped down after the trip to Texas. I still don't think he's getting the same kind of media worship Kemba got during his junior year. Do you? You don't need any links to answer. You're introducing a lot of moving parts but ultimately it comes down to a simple question.

You're relying heavily on Kemba's struggles in February. Everybody knows that Kemba struggled in February. It's why he lost the BE POY race and probably why he lost the NPOY vote as well. Of course the media is fickle like that. For the rest of the year, before and after that stretch, he was the Top Dog (along with Jimmer). This year, I don't think as many people (myself included) see Shabazz as having as dominant a season. The year's not over yet: he could go on a crazy ride just like Kemba did. Who knows? But you can't write off the end of the Kemba's season. He was the NPOY leader or co-leader from November to January, then he struggled in February (didn't need a mountain of evidence for that), and then in March he was the greatest college player since Christian Laettner. Kemba was a household name.

Do you think Bazz is as good as Kemba was in his junior season?

 

[Waquoit]

He was better than Sheffer, but let's also not downplay him.

Et tu, tzz. I know how good Sheffer was.

 

[James]

You guys should take a gander at napiers advanced stats. Specifically win shares per 40 minutes, and offensive rating. At the moment Napier is dominating, he also dominated Florida.