Bazz best UConn point guard ever!

[tzznandrew]

Those guys aren't point guards, which is what we're arguing here. KEA was obviously tremendous, but Bazz this year has him beat in literally every single statistical category from both the '99 and '00 seasons.

I was responding to some who were suggesting that Bazz was having a season like we have never seen at UConn when listing the other great single-season performances.

As for someone beating the other in every statistical category: that means something, surely, but perhaps not as much when you consider the teammates.

For the record: a nice run in the tournament and he probably passes KEA in my book. But let's not discount a player who was the second best on the NC team, the second best on an E8 team, and a player who led a team to a 5 seed before he got injured.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Gordon deferred to Okafor by choice. When Okafor got hurt, Ben Jordan lit up the garden and set the BET scoring record and owned the building.

You can't have it both ways, you can't argue that Napier's numbers are better so therefore he's better, while knocking Gordon for having more talent. If Napier had Okafor, 1) his PPG would be down and 2) his rebounds would be way down.

Napier is having an incredible season, but he gets the benefit of the senior season that Gordon didn't need.

And if Bazz had Okafor, he'd be averaging 3 or 4 less a game at minimum. He's a really good player but people are getting a bit carried away. He has no real shot at any national awards and won't be a lottery pick, which Ben was as a junior. We're seeing a very good senior in a game where very few of the best players stay more than two seasons. The experience shows. For example, from the same class, Kyrie Irving and Brandon Knight have a few years in the NBA already.

 

[tzznandrew]

Not true

Sadly, I don't think you'll actually find many pundits ranking him near the top. Some suggest he is the best PG, but even then, let's see where he ranks at the end of the season relative to Marcus Smart and others.

 

[aceboon]

Sadly, I don't think you'll actually find many pundits ranking him near the top. Some suggest he is the best PG, but even then, let's see where he ranks at the end of the season relative to Marcus Smart and others.

CBS Sports and NBC Sports had him ranked #3 & #2 respectively in their NPOY power rankings as of last week

 

[nomar]

Really?

Sorry. I meant "except for on this board."

 

[BlueMAB]

Throw the stats out. Different teams, different strength of schedules. I think you have to go by the eye test.

KEA is a good argument. I'd probably give the nod to Shabazz, but it's close. Same with AJ Price, toss up.

Marcus Williams was a better passer and pure point guard, but Shabazz a better scorer and gets the nod because of his defense.

Napier (as a senior) isn't as good as Gordon was as a Junior. I don't think it's even close, and that's not a knock on Napier. Gordon was that good. He was just overshadowed by Okafor because Okafor got it done at both ends of the court, on the glass, and in the classroom and just had that engaging personality. Gordon was more reserved, but one of the best at UConn ever. When he was on he was unstoppable, he could get to the hole like Kemba, shoot like Ray, and finish at the rim like Robinson. Maybe not Stanley, but he could finish above the rim. Kemba had to be that guy just about every night, which is why he gets the best PG ever nod at UConn. The only reason we don't think of Ben like that is he didn't have to be that guy. But if you saw him take the Garden over, and carry it into the NCAAs, you should understand.

Comparing him to Kemba? LMAO. That's not even worth a response.

 

[aceboon]

Sorry. I meant "except for on this board."

...and that just isn't true, these were just posted last week, and also last week after the Temple performance Goodman was saying that Bazz was likely the biggest challenger to McDermott for NPOY

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcspo...basketball-player-of-the-year-power-rankings/

2. Shabazz Napier, UConn: Considering the lack of depth UConn has in their front court and the fact that their second and third options offensively (Deandre Daniels and Ryan Boatright) are brutally inconsistency, the Huskies should probably be an NIT team. But they’re not. They have a win over Indiana in the Garden, a win over Florida at home and a win over Memphis in Memphis. Shabazz is the guy to thank for that. As a result, I’ve adjusted my thinking on where he should sit in this rankings.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...ist-of-national-player-of-the-year-candidates

3. Shabazz Napier (Connecticut)
Why he's here: Napier's spectacular play is the main reason why the Huskies have won four of their past five games and climbed back into the Top 25 (and one). He got 27 points, seven rebounds and six assists in Tuesday's win over Temple and is now averaging 17.4 points, 6.2 rebounds and 5.9 assists on the season.

 

[tzznandrew]

CBS Sports and NBC Sports had him ranked #3 & #2 respectively in their NPOY power rankings as of last week

Well, that's good. My cursory search didn't find that.

I think, given this year he's having he's certainly earned that. But, given UConn's history of getting bad luck (Glenn Robinson over Donyell; Marcus Camby over Ray Allen; Elton Brand over Rip) or shafted (Nelson over Okafor; Jimmer over Kemba) in NPOY, I'll be holding my breath regarding him actually getting the credit he deserves.

 

[nomar]

...and that just isn't true, these were just posted last week, and also last week after the Temple performance Goodman was saying that Bazz was likely the biggest challenger to McDermott for NPOY

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcspo...basketball-player-of-the-year-power-rankings/

2. Shabazz Napier, UConn: Considering the lack of depth UConn has in their front court and the fact that their second and third options offensively (Deandre Daniels and Ryan Boatright) are brutally inconsistency, the Huskies should probably be an NIT team. But they’re not. They have a win over Indiana in the Garden, a win over Florida at home and a win over Memphis in Memphis. Shabazz is the guy to thank for that. As a result, I’ve adjusted my thinking on where he should sit in this rankings.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...ist-of-national-player-of-the-year-candidates

3. Shabazz Napier (Connecticut)
Why he's here: Napier's spectacular play is the main reason why the Huskies have won four of their past five games and climbed back into the Top 25 (and one). He got 27 points, seven rebounds and six assists in Tuesday's win over Temple and is now averaging 17.4 points, 6.2 rebounds and 5.9 assists on the season.

Napier was #10 on NBC's list the week before and he'll be back there next time he shoots 3-10. Neither list will EVER have Shabazz #1. That's a bet I'll make any day. There will always be the flavor of the month.

My point stands: Kemba wasn't #20 on ESPN's list and jumping between #2 and #10 on a bunch of others. He was #1A or #1B. And by the end of the season the difference between him and Fredette was the length of the Great Wall of China.

 

[tzznandrew]

Also, this isn't really a fair comparison to KEA. It's not like there was this much constant, documented discussion about who would be POY.

 

[aceboon]

Napier was #10 on NBC's list the week before and he'll be back there next time he shoots 3-10. Neither list will EVER have Shabazz #1. That's a bet I'll make any day. There will always be the flavor of the month.

My point stands: Kemba wasn't #20 on ESPN's list and jumping between #2 and #10 on a bunch of others. He was #1A or #1B. And by the end of the season the difference between him and Fredette was the length of the Great Wall of China.

That list on ESPN was solely based on a mathematical formula, you guys gotta stop this narrative that Bazz isn't getting any pub. I never made the claim that Bazz was #1, and I don't believe that he will win it, but he's definitely in the conversation and has been for the majority of the season outside that of that 2 week lull highlighted by the Houston loss. As for Kemba, I'm not going to do the research but I highly doubt Kemba was still considered 1B when he was mixing in those clunkers during the BE season and the team was losing every other game.

 

[gtcam]

Bazz isn't better than KEA. Not even close.

two different players
KEA is my favorite husky BUT he was not the outside threat that Bazz is and in my opinion, KEA had many more weapons on the court with him.
Kemba won a NC as the leader-can't take that away as did KEA (was he the leader or Rip?)
As a complete overall producer- I think Bazz is the best

 

[nomar]

That list on ESPN was solely based on a mathematical formula, you guys gotta stop this narrative that Bazz isn't getting any pub. I never made the claim that Bazz was #1, and I don't believe that he will win it, but he's definitely in the conversation and has been for the majority of the season outside that of that 2 week lull highlighted by the Houston loss.

Nobody said he isn't getting pub. (See, I can pull out one sentence from one of your posts, too.)

 

[gtcam]

Sort of a side note here, but I'm reminded of our tournament games in 2011 when the national commentators would say something to the effect of "Good move by Jim Calhoun here bringing in Shabazz Napier and letting Walker work without the ball." As if that wasn't what happened in every single game the entire year.

Great point - I was going to point out that Kemba had a luxury of a back-up-Bazz
Bazz doesn't have like talent helping him

 

[nomar]

two different players
KEA is my favorite husky BUT he was not the outside threat that Bazz is and in my opinion, KEA had many more weapons on the court with him.
Kemba won a NC as the leader-can't take that away as did KEA (was he the leader or Rip?)
As a complete overall producer- I think Bazz is the best

Kemba wasn't the leader. That doesn't do justice to what he was. He was the leader, but he was also the #1, #2 and sometimes #3 option. That was the most impressive one-man performance since Danny Manning in 1988. I love Bazz but wow, it's bizarre to see Husky fans giving short shrift to the ridiculousness that was Kemba's junior season.

 

[jleves]

First off, this debate is fascinating - love watching people bring up ideas to support their particular choice and there are a lot of ideas to go around.

Second, can we possibly discuss great UConn players without being antagonistic to someone with a different view/perspective/opinion? After all, we're discussing great UConn players - debate at will, but have fun and realize how lucky we are to be in a position to have this debate. Imagine the debate of the best point guard ever on a Pitt, or PC or UMass board. Some of their best PG debate points might actually go back to being the fastest sperm in the womb.

Finally, it's really hard to compare Napier to KEA - they game has changed a huge amount in 15 years. On the one hand as money continues to increase in the NBA, more talent continues to pour into college basketball. On the other hand, 15 years ago, players stayed a lot longer. It's pretty unlike that Ray or Rip or maybe even Oak (who valued the degree) would play three years in today's game. I get those two ideas are juxtapositioned to each other, but they do change how the competition may be different. Napier is the best player on a team with a huge deficit (front court), KEA was the second best player on a team that had almost no weakness and arguably one of the best defensive UConn teams of all time.

One of the ways I like to think about it is if you could put Napier as a senior on the 99 team in place of KEA, would they have been as successful? I think not - they needed the intangible moxie KEA brought that Napier will never have. If you put KEA as a soph on this team, would they be as successful? Again, I think not as he would have been too young - even with the moxie to be the leader Napier has become.

They both just happen to be the best piece you could fit into the puzzle at the time.

In the end, if you have to rank them in some order, I can't until this season is complete. If we go elite 8 or beyond with Napier pulling the rest of the sled from the front (afterall, they are Huskies), he could surpass KEA. If he can't motivate them to get out of their own way in the first round, I think KEA gets my nod. But other things could happen along the way. I reserve judgement.

 

[aceboon]

Nobody said he isn't getting pub. (See, I can pull out one sentence from one of your posts, too.)

Your one sentence was the only one that mattered because it wasn't true, unless being ranked #1 is the only criteria for being talked about as NPOY. And see my edit, if Kemba didn't win the regular season BE POY, he definitely wasn't fluctuating with Fredette as 1a & 1b all year for POY honors.

 

[Rico444]

You can't have it both ways, you can't argue that Napier's numbers are better so therefore he's better, while knocking Gordon for having more talent. If Napier had Okafor, 1) his PPG would be down and 2) his rebounds would be way down.

Yeah, and his assists would be way, way up. He would be averaging 9-10 per game with a dominant offensive center.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yeah, and his assists would be way, way up. He would be averaging 9-10 per game with a dominant offensive center.

I doubt that. You generally don't see those types of assist numbers in college basketball. There have only been three 10+ assists per game seasons (two of which were by Avery Johnson at Southern U), and fourteen 9+ seasons, of which only 5 were in major conferences...and the most recent of those was 1995.

His assists might go up a little, but probably more like from 5.9 to 6.9 or so.

 

[champs99and04]

I was responding to some who were suggesting that Bazz was having a season like we have never seen at UConn when listing the other great single-season performances.

As for someone beating the other in every statistical category: that means something, surely, but perhaps not as much when you consider the teammates.

For the record: a nice run in the tournament and he probably passes KEA in my book. But let's not discount a player who was the second best on the NC team, the second best on an E8 team, and a player who led a team to a 5 seed before he got injured.

It sort of seems unfair to discount the statistical impressiveness of Shabazz's season - because he plays with inferior teammates to KEA - and then, in the final paragraph, say that you are going to weight postseason success (a tournament in which his teammates will surely have to play well in for UConn to advance) so heavily in your final evaluation. If there is going to be a caveat to his statistical output, the same should probably be applied to anything we discuss regarding team accomplishments.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I was responding to some who were suggesting that Bazz was having a season like we have never seen at UConn when listing the other great single-season performances.

As for someone beating the other in every statistical category: that means something, surely, but perhaps not as much when you consider the teammates.

For the record: a nice run in the tournament and he probably passes KEA in my book. But let's not discount a player who was the second best on the NC team, the second best on an E8 team, and a player who led a team to a 5 seed before he got injured.

I'm not really sure what you mean. Bazz this year is more efficient as an offensive player than KEA ever was. It's not like he's a volume scorer. He also averages more assists and has a better A/TO ratio. In theory, with better teammates his assist numbers would be even better.

 

[tcf15]

Your one sentence was the only one that mattered because it wasn't true, unless being ranked #1 is the only criteria for being talked about as NPOY. And see my edit, if Kemba didn't win the regular season BE POY, he definitely wasn't fluctuating with Fredette as 1a & 1b all year for POY honors.

Curious in regards to the pub Kemba was getting, I decided to do some searching on ESPN:

From 2/3/11: Syracuse snaps out of it at UConn

And one-time Big East and national player of the year favorite Kemba Walker looked pedestrian in scoring a season-low eight points, making just 3 of 14 shots, 1-of-6 on 3s. Over his past four games, Walker is 21-of-70 (30 percent) from the field and 4-of-26 (15 percent) from beyond the arc. ​

From 2/9/11: The Jimmer takes over POY straw poll

In fact, with 67 points and only five first-place votes, Walker has fallen all the way to third. Jared Sullinger deservedly gets the second-place nod with 114 points and 16 first-place votes, and Fredette's first-place spot comes on the strength of 37 first-place votes and 149 total poll points. ​

From 2/16/11: Vegas favors Jimmer Fredette to win POY

Naturally, if you check out the odds at The Greek to win the Wooden Award as college basketball's best player, Jimmer is at -250; next best is Jared Sullinger from Ohio State at +250 (who wasn't even on the preseason list of finalists), followed by Duke'sNolan Smith at +500. It's worth noting -- so the point I eventually make will seem that much more brilliant -- that on the preseason list Smith was overshadowed byKyle Singler. And, if Kyrie Irving doesn't hurt his toe, he's probably giving Fredette a run for his money, not Smith. Bringing up the rear, other than the field at +1000, isKemba Walker, at +2500.​

From 2/24/11: Jimmer Fredette still atop POY poll

According to Rothstein, despite nine fewer voters participating than the previous time, Fredette still managed to expand his hold on the top spot. He received 40 of the 50 first-place votes and 133 total points, while the second-place recipient, Jared Sullinger, received a mere five first-place votes and 64 points. Despite a recent uptick in performance, Kemba Walker's candidacy now appears nascent. Walker didn't notch a single first-place vote and finished fourth overall in points. (Other candidates getting love: Derrick Williams, JaJuan Johnson, E'Twaun Moore,Jordan Taylor, and Kenneth Faried.)​

 

[aceboon]

Curious in regards to the pub Kemba was getting, I decided to do some searching on ESPN:

From 2/3/11: Syracuse snaps out of it at UConn

And one-time Big East and national player of the year favorite Kemba Walker looked pedestrian in scoring a season-low eight points, making just 3 of 14 shots, 1-of-6 on 3s. Over his past four games, Walker is 21-of-70 (30 percent) from the field and 4-of-26 (15 percent) from beyond the arc. ​

From 2/9/11: The Jimmer takes over POY straw poll

In fact, with 67 points and only five first-place votes, Walker has fallen all the way to third. Jared Sullinger deservedly gets the second-place nod with 114 points and 16 first-place votes, and Fredette's first-place spot comes on the strength of 37 first-place votes and 149 total poll points. ​

From 2/16/11: Vegas favors Jimmer Fredette to win POY

Naturally, if you check out the odds at The Greek to win the Wooden Award as college basketball's best player, Jimmer is at -250; next best is Jared Sullinger from Ohio State at +250 (who wasn't even on the preseason list of finalists), followed by Duke'sNolan Smith at +500. It's worth noting -- so the point I eventually make will seem that much more brilliant -- that on the preseason list Smith was overshadowed byKyle Singler. And, if Kyrie Irving doesn't hurt his toe, he's probably giving Fredette a run for his money, not Smith. Bringing up the rear, other than the field at +1000, isKemba Walker, at +2500.​

From 2/24/11: Jimmer Fredette still atop POY poll

According to Rothstein, despite nine fewer voters participating than the previous time, Fredette still managed to expand his hold on the top spot. He received 40 of the 50 first-place votes and 133 total points, while the second-place recipient, Jared Sullinger, received a mere five first-place votes and 64 points. Despite a recent uptick in performance, Kemba Walker's candidacy now appears nascent. Walker didn't notch a single first-place vote and finished fourth overall in points. (Other candidates getting love: Derrick Williams, JaJuan Johnson, E'Twaun Moore,Jordan Taylor, and Kenneth Faried.)​

Good work young man!

...and I hope nobody takes that as me knocking Kemba, I just want to win an internet debate because I'm petty like that

 

[tzznandrew]

It sort of seems unfair to discount the statistical impressiveness of Shabazz's season - because he plays with inferior teammates to KEA - and then, in the final paragraph, say that you are going to weight postseason success (a tournament in which his teammates will surely have to play well in for UConn to advance) so heavily in your final evaluation. If there is going to be a caveat to his statistical output, the same should probably be applied to anything we discuss regarding team accomplishments.

It's a fair point. I'm honestly conflating two things (accidentally): best player and best career. The latter is firmly in KEA's possession. The former is really what we should be debating.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm not really sure what you mean. Bazz this year is more efficient as an offensive player than KEA ever was. It's not like he's a volume scorer. He also averages more assists and has a better A/TO ratio. In theory, with better teammates his assist numbers would be even better.

The competition matters, no? Teams stayed together longer, players didn't leave as early, and so the competition was much more difficult in 1998-2000 than in 2011-2014. It's not surprising, then, that his efficiency would be up.