B12 to 16? WVU fans seem to think it's possible

[Silk City]

I just don't see the doom and gloom scenarios being realistic at all. UConn has built itself up into a nationally known athletic program and university. That's not all going to magically disappear because we are in a conference with Boise St. and Houston instead of Pitt and Syracuse like some of you seem to believe. The Big East is not going to become the MAC or even CUSA or the MW just because we've added some non AQ programs. The Big East will get a BCS AQ level TV deal because it is a BCS AQ conference.

Half of the Big East is now former CUSA and MW teams...

 

[HartbeatHusky]

Half of the Big East is now former CUSA and MW teams...

So what? We were an 8 team league with Louisville, Cincy, and USF plus UConn having moved up from FCS since the last raid. We were still BCS then with only 4 traditional programs. The Big East has always been a basketball conference with a football conference grafted onto it. That is what it is and will always be. The only original BE member to have left is BC and now Syracuse. All of the others were later additions to UConn and it's hoops brethren. Houston and SMU both used to be in the same conference as all of the Big 12 schools from Texas and were often competitive with those schools. Boise St. has made themselves nationally relevant. It's just not as bad as you people want to make it seem.

 

[gars44]

Its a real slow new year's day so here I go doing what I just said I wanted to avoid. BSU, SMU, and HOU staying power is of marginal benefit to Uconn at best. If the BE gets a HUGE contract, which I for one doubt, the additional money is good but as so many here claim when the topic is SYR of BC to the ACC, it takes more than money to sustain an athletic program. It takes interest in the games. I may be very wrong but I just don't see the average CT fan having much interest in most of the new rivals.

John, I don't think the average CT fan has very much sophistication when it comes to college football. Not the same way the average fan gets basketball. Uconn has never been an elite player in football. The average CT home football game is filled with contests, commercials, songs - anything to keep the fans entertained. The average fan is not interested in Pitt or Syracuse or BC football. In fact, I would go as far as to say that no one anywhere is interested in Pitt, Syracuse or BC football. Our #1 threat to the program is losing seasons. CT fans do not have enough loyalty to the program to support it through more than a couple of losing seasons in a row. CT fans are not as concerned with our new rivals. The only good thing about Syracuse and Pitt football was that we could beat them regularly. If we can beat Houston, SMU and Boise (which I tend to doubt) all will be well. If we can't, yeah, we have a big problem with our new rivals.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Losing the BCS-AQ status in the current environment, certainly would be a problem, but to this day, nobody has ever shown me how a conference can lose BCS-AQ status once a group of football teams has it as a conference. So it's a pointless statement. The media like to yap about it, but the fact is that the only way BCS-AQ status is lost, is if the BCS itself goes away, or a conference that plays in a BCS-AQ conference simply dissolves all of their football programs. Neither of which are happening any time soon.

1-A football compeition level existed before it was called FBS/BCS/AQ BS, and it will continue at that level when the alphabet soup is gone. It's all about money. Money money money.

I responded to a message that said nothing about the BCS-AQ status, or basketball success from Fishy..... only that the new big east would lead to 'certain diminshment' of uconn athletics.

Maybe i misinterpreted it, being about uconn athletics, but that's what I thought it said. Didn't seem to be talking about all big east schools in that message. anyway.

First of all, money. Football is the money making driving factor in college sports. Always has been, always will be. The financial success of an athletic department at a university, or an athletic league of universities, is directly tied to the competition level and health of the football programs. Not only that, more importantly - the growth potential of an individual athletic department, or an athletic conference, is directly related to football programs. This is what Lew Perkins identified in his first study and report on 1-A football at UConn way back in 1990.

Coming to grips with this fact, this realization that football is what determines how financially successful and big basketball programs can be, is what the big east conference, and I think even leadership at our own university is going through the fire learning right now, so many years late for the big east conference.

The success of the big east as a conference, is directly tied to beginning the play of football in 1991 at 1-A level. The growth potential of the uconn athletic department, and in turn how that affects the growth of the university as a whole, is directly tied to the upgrade to 1-A football that was set into motion finally in 1997.

It's taken the big east conference to nearly die, TWICE, for them to realize it over in Providence. Without football, there is no big east conference basketball at the top level of intercollegiate sports anymore. The uconn athletic department, with all of it's basketball dominance over the years, is finally realizing it, too, and it's probably not easy for a big time fellow over there with offices under the Gampel dome to realize that the continued success of the basketball dynasty he built is directly tied to what happens on the gridiron at a facility in East Hartford.

I have many faults with Randy Edsall, most when it came to coaching, but the man understood football, and it's role in the intercollegiate world, and I believe it frustrated him to no end, that during his years, it probably didn't sink in with administration in athletic department and university, as we're winning national championships left and right in basketball and raking in the ncaa tournament money as a member of the big east (and that's wehre the money in men's b-ball is - the tourney - not in broadcasting), but the guy wasn't a very good communicator either.

Lew Perkins, looked at the intercollegiate world, and realized that the ceiling that our athletic department could reach was limited by football in 1990, when the basketball program had just had it's very first miracle season, and Gampel pavilion had not yet hosted a basketball game. Providing an environemtn where the basketball programs could thrive, was a major, major part of why he was so concerned with making an upgrade happen.

This school is committed to being at the level we are at, we are in much better position than other big east colleges financially, and with our fan support in ticket sales and market share in broadcasting. If the big east goes away tomorrow, UConn will have scheduling problems, but we will be fine.

Division 1-A football existed before the BCS, and did just fine. It will exist and be just fine when the BCS doesn't exist again. We will still be part of it, and we were very, very smart to upgrade and join the club, and now that we're in, we're not going away.

The success of our athletic programs rides on the ability to recruit successfully to compete at the level we want to compete at. Recruits ultimately choose a school because of the coaches, and the level of competition they see around them, not the conference affiliation. This is something that the UConn b-ball programs will be facing a hard reality in not too long time from now. It's nice to have the shiny toys and big sports cathedrals, but players come because of coaches, and level of competition.

Coach P said it simply when he first arrived at Rentschler. Players want to go where they see other good players going. Jim Calhoun and Geno Auriemma, most certainly would agree, I think.

THe big east conference almost died in 2011. Would we be better off if it had? Are we better off in a different conference? Maybe. Maybe not. It makes for good discussion, talking about it. But conferences come and go.

Competition does not.

THe only thing that's for sure, is that if football had taken priority over basketball at the conference level of leadership a decade ago, when we were winnign a national championship in football for the Big East, we wouldn't have to travel as far for intercollegiate sports within our league now.

 

[Carl Spackler]

John, I don't think the average CT fan has very much sophistication when it comes to college football. Not the same way the average fan gets basketball. Uconn has never been an elite player in football. The average CT home football game is filled with contests, commercials, songs - anything to keep the fans entertained. The average fan is not interested in Pitt or Syracuse or BC football. In fact, I would go as far as to say that no one anywhere is interested in Pitt, Syracuse or BC football. Our #1 threat to the program is losing seasons. CT fans do not have enough loyalty to the program to support it through more than a couple of losing seasons in a row. CT fans are not as concerned with our new rivals. The only good thing about Syracuse and Pitt football was that we could beat them regularly. If we can beat Houston, SMU and Boise (which I tend to doubt) all will be well. If we can't, yeah, we have a big problem with our new rivals.

This is the case, for most of the millions of people in CT that support UConn athletics. They're just getting the very very first taste of football, and I have no doubt whatsoever, that the band wagon for a top 25 football program would be absolutely incredible.

The success of the basketball programs and the following for the University they've created are to thank for that.

 

[Carl Spackler]

BTW - I realize that the big east was hugely successful in the 1980s. The NCAA as an organization though, ended the existence of single sports conferences in the 1990s.

Conferences come and go. Competition, adn the level of competition does not.

 

[Fishy]

I don't know how better to make the point than this.

Here are the 2003 Big East football standings...

1. Miami
2. West Virginia
3. Pittsburgh
4. Virginia Tech
5. Boston College
6. Syracuse
7. Rutgers
8. Temple

We have basically lived off of the AQ status of that conference, but it no longer exists. What will replace it is no longer big nor east and it will generate much, much less revenue in relation to its peers than that conference did....and that conference was deemed too weak to thrive.

We're bringing in some good football programs - hopefully, they'll still be good when they get here. But they're not programs that are going to drive us to some sort of competitive or financial parity with the top five conferences. That gate has swung shut.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

I don't know how better to make the point than this.

Here are the 2003 Big East football standings...

1. Miami
2. West Virginia
3. Pittsburgh
4. Virginia Tech
5. Boston College
6. Syracuse
7. Rutgers
8. Temple

We have basically lived off of the AQ status of that conference, but it no longer exists. What will replace it is no longer big nor east and it will generate much, much less revenue in relation to its peers than that conference did....and that conference was deemed too weak to thrive.

We're bringing in some good football programs - hopefully, they'll still be good when they get here. But they're not programs that are going to drive us to some sort of competitive or financial parity with the top five conferences. That gate has swung shut.

Hey, man. At least we still have Rutgers.....Louisville had some good seasons before they joined the league and Houston and SMU have competed with some of the biggest traditional powers there are. Boise has been top ten for damn near the last decade. We'll be OK.

 

[gars44]

I don't know how better to make the point than this.

Here are the 2003 Big East football standings...

1. Miami
2. West Virginia
3. Pittsburgh
4. Virginia Tech
5. Boston College
6. Syracuse
7. Rutgers
8. Temple

We have basically lived off of the AQ status of that conference, but it no longer exists. What will replace it is no longer big nor east and it will generate much, much less revenue in relation to its peers than that conference did....and that conference was deemed too weak to thrive.

We're bringing in some good football programs - hopefully, they'll still be good when they get here. But they're not programs that are going to drive us to some sort of competitive or financial parity with the top five conferences. That gate has swung shut.

How do you keep your message count down to 437? Does it reset each week?

 

[Fishy]

It's just 437...the brilliance contained within each one makes it seem like more.

I appreciate your optimism, Hartbeat, even if I don't share it.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

It's just 437...the brilliance contained within each one makes it seem like more.

I appreciate your optimism, Hartbeat, even if I don't share it.

And I appreciate your pessimism. However, I don't share it. UConn athletics will not be sucked into a black hole because we lost some traditional conference mates.

 

[gars44]

It's just 437...the brilliance contained within each one makes it seem like more.

I appreciate your optimism, Hartbeat, even if I don't share it.

That has to be it!!! I can't argue.

To the substance of your post, of course that 2003 line-up, derisively referred to by many as the Big Least, looks better than what is being assembled right now. No question. But we have to remember that Uconn's upgrade was part of the reason real football programs wanted out at the first opportunity. Miami and company wanted out because of the general weakness of BE football. Shalala didn't want Miami to have to be the constant renegade propping up the league. When Miami bailed, everyone else wanted out too, but we were part of the reason. Us, RU, Temple - everyone else wanted to get away from these programs. We have to build our program and win our respect, and not moan and groan about that fact that we didn't get included this round. And we have to remain optimistic.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I don't know how better to make the point than this.

Here are the 2003 Big East football standings...

1. Miami
2. West Virginia
3. Pittsburgh
4. Virginia Tech
5. Boston College
6. Syracuse
7. Rutgers
8. Temple

We have basically lived off of the AQ status of that conference, but it no longer exists. What will replace it is no longer big nor east and it will generate much, much less revenue in relation to its peers than that conference did....and that conference was deemed too weak to thrive.

We're bringing in some good football programs - hopefully, they'll still be good when they get here. But they're not programs that are going to drive us to some sort of competitive or financial parity with the top five conferences. That gate has swung shut.

No, hold on. We (the big east) have lived off of AQ status, because the leaders, even if they hated doing it at the time, were smart enough in 1991 to form a football conference and get a seat at the table when the first Bowl Alliance, or whatever that first incarnation fo the BCS as called - was formed. There is no provision in this bastard of on an organzation called the BCS that states how any of those founding members lose AQ status for the bowl games involved. There's rules about increasing membership, but nothing about losing it, and if that changes, you can guarantee that the whole system goes away.

And who deemed the conference was too weak to thrive? It seems to me that other conferences aren't going to be looking for programs that they think are going to drag them down, which btw - is why certain ACC members fought against BC joining.

You're absolutely right, that there's not much that's being done that will effect - THE MEDIA - perception of the big east, and we might be a late to the table with what we're bringing to land a really nice broadcasting rights deal.

But as for level of competition? Tehre's only one thing in reality that matters, and that's recruiting, and recruiting is about coaches, adn players seeing level of competition around them. Yes - a football player in high school automatically knows that in the SEC, or the ACC, the level of compeition is higher than it is in the big east.....

or is it really?

 

[Carl Spackler]

That has to be it!!! I can't argue.

To the substance of your post, of course that 2003 line-up, derisively referred to by many as the Big Least, looks better than what is being assembled right now. No question. But we have to remember that Uconn's upgrade was part of the reason real football programs wanted out at the first opportunity. Miami and company wanted out because of the general weakness of BE football. Shalala didn't want Miami to have to be the constant renegade propping up the league. When Miami bailed, everyone else wanted out too, but we were part of the reason. Us, RU, Temple - everyone else wanted to get away from these programs. We have to build our program and win our respect, and not moan and groan about that fact that we didn't get included this round. And we have to remain optimistic.

Miami left because....well how can I say this succinctly......it's january 5, 2002, Miami had just won a national championship in football by beating Nebraska, and the big east leadership essentially did nothing to promote football, and did nothing to recognize the importance of what had just happened for the conference - everyone in leadership at the big east is more concerned, that January 2002, about the start of big east basketball season, so Miami big wigs said, duck this, we're outta here.

The ACC, oddly enough, starts having expansion discussions later that year, and in early 2003.....the invites go out to Miami and Virginia Tech.

 

[RS9999X]

It goes back earlier than 2002. The Big East was a bus stop, a port in the storm, for schools like Miami when they joined in 1991.

Dependng on who you believe, Tranghese, Swofford and the ACC discussed several scenarios in 1997-1998 leading up to the 1998 BCS deal. The discussions were far ranging from a Footall merger to ACC expansion w/3 teams of select football schools (Miami and SU were prominent for obvious reasons then and Tranghese denies inolvement in that part ) which the ACC ADs voted down. That was the start of the due diligence.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2003-05-24/news/0305240264_1_tranghese-acc-s-commissioner-swofford

http://articles.courant.com/2003-06...big-east-acc-acc-president-acc-expansion-plan

UConn's upgrade was inconsequential. It was the opportunity to reopen the ACC contract and add a championship game that made it happen. For Miami it was a no brainer given the geography. It was what they wanted in 1991.

In hindsight, if they took West Virginia instead of BC they'd still be at 12 teams today (IMHO) and have a coherent regional footprint and more respect than fussing around with local politics and academia and half assed market creep into the North.

The good news: by 2016 they will want to re-open their contract again.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Correct, there was goofing around by the Big EAst and ACC all along, but the response, well - essentially non-response by the conference after the media backlash to Miami beating Nebraska for the national title in what was then - the fourth BCS national championship game was the nail in the coffin. The big boys in college football, that so very much like the BCS now, were pissed off that the big east won a national championship, in fact the traditional big boy football conferences had a grand total of four participants out of 10 teams in the first FIVE BCS national championship games.

In 1999 - the BCS national championship game featured and ACC team vs. a Big East team. Can you imagine?!!

The "big boy" conferences weren't happy and the big east conference leadership didn't give a about football.

Miami had enough.

I'm reasonably sure, that by 2011, the big east conference leadership finally gets the importance of football, when it comes to survival of their basketball baby as an adult.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Unfortunately, the bickering back and forth between the big east and acc around football shifted the college football landscape of perception such that neither the ACC or the Big East has yet been able to recover in football.

And college football is that unique sport on the entire planet, where public perception fits into post season games and determining national championships.

We really need a playoff system, and the big east can really make up for all the damage it has done to college football, by leading the way toward a playoff system.

 

[businesslawyer]

Certain diminishment? That sounds awful.

First of all, we've been part of this feckless association of schools that are at best tolerating each other since 1979. You get dizzy counting all the schools and athletic programs that have come and gone in the past 32 years, and even more dizzy when you start counting all the programs that have tried to join the group and didn't.

.

This is incredibly wrong. This conference had commong goals and progress through most of its history. It was formed to be a basketball conference and it succeeded. Than it formed a football conference that was meant to be good enough that it's basketball league wouldn't lose members and it succeeded again. It only became a collection of schools with disparate interests in the last decade when hoops money became insignificant compared to football money.

This confernece was not formed and developed irrationally. Unfortunately, market forces evolved in a manner that made rational and successful moves no longer work.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The market had nothing to do with the Big East's problems. When you lay down with dogs, you get fleas. There have been a lot of dogs in the Big East over the years. This hasn't happened to other leagues because their constituent institutions are not run by scumbags, like BCU, Miami, Pitt, Syracuse and WVU.

 

[The Funster]

I applaud any one who can properly use the word "feckless" in a post.

 

[HuskyHawk]

We're going to be a Have Not in a system will absolutely cater to the Haves. The old Big East was on the outskirts of Haveville - the new one will be a plane ride away from it.

We're not gaining access to recruits in Texas or Florida...at least not the ones we need. Adding the fifth or sixth or seventh best programs in those states is no magic wand.

There is no upside here. The first victim will be the hoop program when Big Monday walks away.

Agreed. The worst possible thing for UConn is to land in some disaster of a conference where basketball is not on ESPN. Versus focuses on Hockey. NBC does not have the bandwidth to broadcast college basketball. The reason why ESPN's offer was as generous as it was is because BE basketball does have huge value to them, with tons of content. They just weren't going to overpay for a crappy football conference nobody wants to see.

 

[freescooter]

Oddly enough I think both bl and nelson have good points. The Big East was formed for basketball. The leadership never quite understood that football would be the driving force going forward and took only the most basic steps to hold and maintain a football conference. Even after the first ACC raid, the league pretty much did the minimum necessary to keep its football league together, and although the addititons were certainly good ones, Louisville was the Boise State of the early 2000s, it was still basketball centric and the addition of Marquette and Depaul which made very little sense from a locational perspective and none at all for meeting the real need of developing a serious football conference, demonstrated that the league never really got it. Football for the Big East was always approached like a C student approaches his classes...do the minimum required to pass.

On the other hand, Syracuse, BC and Miami were pretty slimy in the first round, and while most UCONN fans seem to have this affection for the Orange, one shouldn't forget that this isn't the first ime they plotted to get out of the Big East. the only reason they didn't go in 2003 was that the Governor and Legislature of Virginia essentially threatened to turn the University of Virginia into a community college if they didn't vote for VaTech instead. At the start of the process, John Casteen was on board with the Syracuse move and opposed to adding VaTech as "an equal." the current situation indicates that the Syracuse leadership remains a bunch of slime puppies. They probably ought to make Bernie Fine chairman of the Board of Trustees. He's a perfect representative of their level of integrity.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Without the tremendous reputation in basketball, the Big East no better than CUSA right now. Stop blaming the hoops schools.

 

[freescooter]

nelson,
I'm not "blaming" the hoop schools. I'm just commenting on the reality. And how great is that basketball rpeutation when you replace Syracuse with Houston and Pitt with SMU? The reality of the college sports landscape is, and really has always been, football first. It is now for sure. The only reason the Big East was able to retain its basketball position is that it had a BCS football league. And while I know everyone thinks Villanova and Georgetown are some kinds of basketball powers, since 2000, Georetown has won 2 regular season titles and 1 tournement title. Villanova has shared 1 regular season title (shared with UCONN in 2006). St Johns won the tourney in 2000. So in 12 years, the basketball schools had 2 Big East titles and 2 1/2 regular season "titles" (which the Big East didn't even recognize for a number of years and which are pretty meaningless in the larger scheme of things.) the reality is without its football playing schools the Big East would be the A-10. I know you don't want to admit that, but the record indicates that it is true. If you discount UCONN's pre-football success you need to go back to the mid-1990s to find a period where the basketball teams dominated the Big East. That is the reality. It just is. The Big East leadership never grasped the importance of football or was just too wedded to the concept that somehow the basketball schools were relevent on there own. Without the football schools, the Big East is no better than A-10. Georetown = Xavier. Villanova = Temple. St Johns=St Joes and the rest can make runs from time to time.

 

[businesslawyer]

Oddly enough I think both bl and nelson have good points. The Big East was formed for basketball. The leadership never quite understood that football would be the driving force going forward and took only the most basic steps to hold and maintain a football conference. Even after the first ACC raid, the league pretty much did the minimum necessary to keep its football league together, and although the addititons were certainly good ones, Louisville was the Boise State of the early 2000s, it was still basketball centric and the addition of Marquette and Depaul which made very little sense from a locational perspective and none at all for meeting the real need of developing a serious football conference, demonstrated that the league never really got it. Football for the Big East was always approached like a C student approaches his classes...do the minimum required to pass.

On the other hand, Syracuse, BC and Miami were pretty slimy in the first round, and while most UCONN fans seem to have this affection for the Orange, one shouldn't forget that this isn't the first ime they plotted to get out of the Big East. the only reason they didn't go in 2003 was that the Governor and Legislature of Virginia essentially threatened to turn the University of Virginia into a community college if they didn't vote for VaTech instead. At the start of the process, John Casteen was on board with the Syracuse move and opposed to adding VaTech as "an equal." the current situation indicates that the Syracuse leadership remains a bunch of slime puppies. They probably ought to make Bernie Fine chairman of the Board of Trustees. He's a perfect representative of their level of integrity.

You are basically asking why did the conference care about hoops and pigskin, and not just pigskin. The answer should be so apparently obvious that it doesn't require restating, but the answer is because we voluntarily joined a conference that had members that did not play big time football. That is the only answer.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

Without the tremendous reputation in basketball, the Big East no better than CUSA right now. Stop blaming the hoops schools.

I agree that the Big East is propped up by basketball but to not place any blame on the hoops schools for not being as accommodating to football expansion as they should have been and trying to keep football and basketball schools as equal voting blocs ignores the reality. Houston, UCF, and SMU or TCU could have been added years ago and the Big East could have been proactive instead of reactive. TCU would be in the Big East now if they had been added before B12 members started defecting.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

You are basically asking why did the conference care about hoops and pigskin, and not just pigskin. The answer should be so apparently obvious that it doesn't require restating, but the answer is because we voluntarily joined a conference that had members that did not play big time football. That is the only answer.

We joined as a school that itself had never sponsored big time football. We are historically more like the catholic hoops schools than the original football playing members of the Big East with the exception that we are a state flagship university.

 

[The Funster]

A majority of the best hoops schools just happened to play football too. How many hoops only schools have had sustained success in the BE?

 

[RS9999X]

It's safe to say no one seriously saw the ACC and SEC going to 14 schools until the BiG started their exploration in Dec 15, 2009. Even then it was assumed just 1 team before the April 21, 2010 anouncement of exploration of up to 16 teams.

For years football supporters were hooked on 12 as the magic number. The BiG was a threat to take 1 team at most and many thought it was ND or nothing.

It's hindsight to blame the BE in the 2003 - 2009 timeframe: there was no financial ammo in the BE's corner at that point. The problem today remains as simple: 12 may be the right number but how do you get 12 teams equally commited to Ball and Football? Look at the internal warfare at Rutgers and the Boise basketall team.

UConn has 3 options besides the status quo
1) Wait for a major to reopen their contract and constantly speak to that
2) Forming a BE UConn Cable Channel and shove it down subscribers throats at $10 a year.
3) Devolve and become a regional player. Separate BBall alignment from Football entirely and rebuild the BE as two separate conferences instead of a Football inside a Basketball conference.

 

[Dann]

4)upgrade hockey, expand the rent, revamp xl, join the aau and dare the Big10 to not add us.