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Are the Tennessee Fans Overreacting (serious question)

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CL82 said:
Here's my question: Were Holly replaced (and she has my full support - she's doing a fine job, just fine) is Tennessee going to be viewed as a top job for a woman's basketball coach?

1) You are going to be compared to Pat Summitt. Not the actual version, which would be tough enough, but the legendary version, who could win a national championship with a scowl and a yell of "Rebound."

2) Tennessee has had some issue with how it treats it's female employees. The most recent incarnation of this is the Manning assault narrative.

3) Independent of that, Tennessee is a football school. Summitt navigated that spectacularly well, but any new coach isn't Pat Summitt. Resources may be an issue.
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Good points. The UT situation seems very similar to North Carolina following Dean Smith's retirement in 1997. There, as at UT, the school appointed the 30-year assistant coach, Bill Guthridge, to the head coaching job. He inherited top-flight talent from a team that went to the Final Four the previous year, according to Wikipedia. He went back to the final four that year, but then, " the team earned a #3 seed in the 1999 NCAA tournament, but it was upset in the first round by Weber State – the first time that the Tar Heels have failed to win a game in the tournament since it dropped first-round byes in 1982. In 2000, the team struggled in the regular season, falling out of the polls for the first time since the start of the 1990-91 season. The team finished 18-13 – UNC's worst regular-season record in 11 years. However, the team came alive in the 2000 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament. With the 8th seed in the West Region, they upset top-seeded Stanford in the second round and continued on to the Final Four, where the Tar Heels lost to Florida. After the 2000 season, Guthridge retired from coaching."

Similar to UCLA situation after John Wooden retired. Bartow took over and coached for just two years before leaving. That was the end of the UCLA dynasty. So one replacement lasts two years, the other three years. No win situation?

"
 
CL82 said:
Here's my question: Were Holly replaced (and she has my full support - she's doing a fine job, just fine) is Tennessee going to be viewed as a top job for a woman's basketball coach?

1) You are going to be compared to Pat Summitt. Not the actual version, which would be tough enough, but the legendary version, who could win a national championship with a scowl and a yell of "Rebound."

2) Tennessee has had some issue with how it treats it's female employees. The most recent incarnation of this is the Manning assault narrative.

3) Independent of that, Tennessee is a football school. Summitt navigated that spectacularly well, but any new coach isn't Pat Summitt. Resources may be an issue.
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I think the answer to that question is yes - big budget, good facilities, great fan base, great history, conference ripe for the taking.
1. At this point you will be compared first to Holly, not a daunting prospect. Sure Pat is always hanging over your head, but unless you want to take a job at a wannabe school, there is always history. Getting on for a decade since the team was last in the FF so if you can get them that far, you will be celebrated as the restorer of order in the universe.

2. Every large institution has a history of discrimination against women - the one at TN is very public and recent but I am not sure it is any more serious than what has gone on in the past at a ton of places. And with all the publicity one suspects they will be very aware of not creating more smoke/fire in the next few years.

3. The whole of the SEC is football country, but it is one of the best WCBB conferences as well - no way TN will be scrimping and scraping with respect to the WCBB team - especially in light of #2.
 
SCGamecock said:
It is. Not that there was still interest.. but there's next to zero percent chance that Diamond or any other Tennessee player ends up at SC. Just in case you guys were speculating who goes where.
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I agree with you.DD is not worth the agravation.I thought that was the rule from my Days of watching Nebraska football.I miss the 70s,lol.
 
You think the next coach here wants to be compared to Geno all the time? It will not be pleasant for him/her nor for us. There is an inevitable letdown after the end of a dynasty/departure of a great coach.
 
Are the fans overreacting....not at all.
  • The team is playing horrible basketball and seemingly imploding from within.
  • The coach is clueless
  • They have the most losses in a season since the beginning of time (with more possibilities to improve in that negative record to come).
  • I didn't check if they dropped out of the top-25.
This team was a dominant, well-supported institution; like them or not. They are now the laughing stock of the SEC. Every lowly team goes into games expecting to beat them.

Those posters that expect the team to perhaps improve next year are living in a fantasy world...There are no recruits...zero,nada. They are losing Graves (at least) one of their best players; god knows whom else.

The program is in disastrous free-fall ala La-Tech land.

I think the fans are quite reasonable under the circumstances.
 
pinotbear said:
I'd like to take a slightly different tack, back to the original question posed in the thread title: Are the Tennessee fans overreacting? Much of the thread has examined the reasons for the decline, rather than the fan reaction.

The fans are overreacting. albeit slightly: there's sufficient talent and experience that, barring greater injuries, this team should have a better record.

The fans are overreacting because 30 years of good to great success has given many of them a deep-seeded sense of entitlement: an arrogance that so many of us who have been riding the UConn bus for 20+ years remember all too well. It was shoved in, and rubbed in, our faces, over and over. It inspired venom, all kinds of obnoxious and offensive comments, and was the underpinning of the whole schism between the two programs: the Volunteers and the fans just couldn't handle, couldn't accept, the fact that another school was their equal, much less their better.

And, it is a cautionary tale - for, more than a bit of arrogance creeps into some of our posts and thoughts as well. Many a thread has delved into "what happens next?", after the Auriemma era ends (how's that for alliteration?).
Let's learn from their poor example, and not feel entitled to undefeated seasons, national titles, Final Fours, and conference championships. Enjoy them, appreciate them, and don't gripe, whine and kvetch over every short-coming, real and otherwise!
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That's why we should savor the last few games of Stewie, Moriah, and Morgan, because you might never see their type of ability on one team again.
 
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ivrytontusker said:
You think the next coach here wants to be compared to Geno all the time? It will not be pleasant for him/her nor for us. There is an inevitable letdown after the end of a dynasty/departure of a great coach.
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I think Shea wouldn't be intimidated by Geno's history at all. JMHO
 
msf22b said:
Are the fans overreacting....not at all.
  • The team is playing horrible basketball and seemingly imploding from within.
  • The coach is clueless
  • They have the most losses in a season since the beginning of time (with more possibilities to improve in that negative record to come).
  • I didn't check if they dropped out of the top-25.
This team was a dominant, well-supported institution; like them or not. They are now the laughing stock of the SEC. Every lowly team goes into games expecting to beat them.

Those posters that expect the team to perhaps improve next year are living in a fantasy world...There are no recruits...zero,nada. They are losing Graves (at least) one of their best players; god knows whom else.

The program is in disastrous free-fall ala La-Tech land.

I think the fans are quite reasonable under the circumstances.
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Uh Michael; They not only dropped out of the top 25, they got all of 2 (two) votes. They were at the absolute bottom of the "also received votes" category. I guess the voters finally got the message.
 
msf22b said:
Are the fans overreacting....not at all.
  • The team is playing horrible basketball and seemingly imploding from within.
  • The coach is clueless
  • They have the most losses in a season since the beginning of time (with more possibilities to improve in that negative record to come).
  • I didn't check if they dropped out of the top-25.
This team was a dominant, well-supported institution; like them or not. They are now the laughing stock of the SEC. Every lowly team goes into games expecting to beat them.

Those posters that expect the team to perhaps improve next year are living in a fantasy world...There are no recruits...zero,nada. They are losing Graves (at least) one of their best players; god knows whom else.

The program is in disastrous free-fall ala La-Tech land.

I think the fans are quite reasonable under the circumstances.
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I disagree with 2 comments, the rest I get

First, I don't think they are the laughing stock of the SEC and would need references. What they are, however, is considered beatable in general and even at home. They had an "invincible" aura (similar if not as strong as UConn's) that was a factor in some victories. It is gone.

And the La Tech reference doesn't seem to me to make any sense. La Tech never went into free fall, per se. While blaming their lack of relevance strictly on their conference is actually a bit specious, ultimately they lacked the financial and recruiting where-with-all to compete at the national level that they wanted to. But it was a gradual slippage, no free fall involved. Steps along the way included the movement to the WAC from Sunbelt, Leon's subsequent retirement, the late Kurt Budke's leaving for OK State and through this all more and more difficulty in scheduling top teams OOC (and worse and worse performance when playing them). The conference moves and the move to CUSA where they are now were all football driven, of course.
 
CocoHusky said:
No.
The chemistry has been document to be toxic by potential recruits (Linnae Harper)
In a word-sad.
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How did Harper document the toxic chemistry?
 
UcMiami said:
A third big - Jasmine Jones may call it a career having missed most of the last two years with multiple concussions I believe. I do not see the 'zero recruits' for 2016 as a sign per se - every program strikes out once in a while, but if 2017 isn't good then I get very worried..
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she's gone LINK
 
When Holly was promoted (not hired) to the position of LadyVols head coach, I posted that she now had the worst job in wcbb.

Why? Because she was not only succeeding a revered legend -- a tough enough challenge -- but in this instance the legend (Saint Pat Summitt) was to remain visible (officially!) to adoring fans with full authority to hover over practices and games and participate in recruiting activities.

This situation rapidly morphed from tenuous to impossible, compounded by heavy-handed decisions by new AD Hart (punctuated by damaging lawsuits) and mounting evidence of Holly's inadequacies as The Head Coach.

In retrospect, issues with four players stand out as hastening the weakness of Holly's control over the team.

First, she inherited an uncontrollable talent (Simmons) who once represented a recruiting triumph for Pat but became highly visible evidence that Holly could not control a rambunctious player.

Next, amid much hoopla, she secured three players who seemed destined to lead the LadyVols back to The Promised Land: Russell, Cooper, and DeShields. We all now know how that has been working out.​

Finally, worse came to worst. A complete whiff on '16 recruits, exacerbated by damaging hints (Harper) about the program's status and the publicly dashed hopes of landing quality recruits like McCoy and Cox.

Holly seems secure for a few more years @ $600,00+ and no reputable coach would consider wading into that cessool for less than $1M+/5 years.

The LadyVols situation has now become beyond pathetic -- a total tragedy.

R.I.P.
 
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I wonder what it would take to force the Tennessee AD to fire Warlick. Perhaps losing 2 of the remaining 3 games on the regular season schedule, losing early in the SEC tournament, and a low seed in the NCAA tournament. The positive in a very negative season for the Vols would be the hiring of a new coach who can turn the program around within a few years.
 
I am one of the UT fans on the board who entered this season with anticipation this would be the squad to get back to the Final Four, although I had some concerns about the loses of Burdick, Harrison and Massengale. The no recruits for 2016 issue speaks volumes to me more than the win/loss record. No school wins them all and it can be tough with other programs getting in the national spotlight. However, he fact the squad has no recruits coming in for next season and there being a 9 player roster at this time for 2016-17 should be enough to raise eyebrows in the athletic department.

There has been a bit of overreaction from some fans which is largely grounded in disappointment and frustration. The high hopes of this season were almost gone 7 or so games in the schedule given how poorly the team played. On paper this squad looks good, but the product on the floor has left much to be desired. I choose to the take the high road and note that while this team has drastically underperformed, they honestly haven't been blown out by anyone with the exception of ND. Their loses have typically come down to a few missed plays or shots here and there. Fans of this board are very quick to point out the shortcomings on offense of SEC teams, but that's is irrelevant to me when it comes to winning games.

The game has changed and UT didn't do a good job of evolving. If Warlick can humble herself to change her style and adjust the system to reflect the talents of the players on the roster, next season could be much better. She should honestly get one more shot, but only with a commitment to reconstruct the offense and recruiting methods. Maybe an assistant or two should be replaced, maybe a player needs to transfer, maybe she needs more support from the AD. I don't know if there is one answer, but the fans' patience is thin and hopefully Holly or Hart is listening.
 
bags27 said:
this can't help. Such a devastating article in today's Times making UTenn look so dirty; competing coaches will make sure that potential recruits see it. Who would sign on there is they have any reasonable alternative?
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/s...nnessee-lady-vols-top-25.html?ref=todayspaper
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A good article albeit with a few annoying things in there.

The Tennessee-UConn rivalry brought widespread attention and respect to women’s basketball. But Summitt ended the regular-season series in 2007, concerned about how UConn had recruited Maya Moore. The Huskies received a slap on the wrist from the N.C.A.A. after arranging for Moore a tour of ESPN’s studios in Bristol, Conn.

Accurate but misleading. If they talked about the entire "62 page" or whatever complaint and then said that the only minor violation found was UConn calling to arrange for Moore to attend a publicly available tour. It has a different feel.

In next paragraph the author goes on to note that

Summitt made her team practice, even though the season was over.

Add to that "itself a violation of NCAA rules" and you get a different, and through my national flag colored glasses, more accurate view.
 
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CL82 said:
A good article albeit with a few annoying things in there.
Accurate but misleading.
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I thought the same as I read it. But it's supposed to be about UTenn and it does get pretty nasty at the end about UTenn. The gist is that UTenn was descending and maybe because of a lot of "false consciousness" (sorry, Karl) about their position on the way down. Bringing in UConn's "violation" is a way of appearing "fair and balanced".
 
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MSSportsGuy said:
Fans of this board are very quick to point out the shortcomings on offense of SEC teams, but that's is irrelevant to me when it comes to winning games.

The game has changed and UT didn't do a good job of evolving. If Warlick can humble herself to change her style and adjust the system
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Isn't this contradictory?
 
I have a question. Why UTenn has not recruited any player in 2016?
Is it because no one wants to come to UTenn or no scholarship available?
 
Kibitzer said:
When Holly was promoted (not hired) to the position of LadyVols head coach, I posted that she now had the worst job in wcbb.

Why? Because she was not only succeeding a revered legend -- a tough enough challenge -- but in this instance the legend (Saint Pat Summitt) was to remain visible (officially!) to adoring fans with full authority to hover over practices and games and participate in recruiting activities.

This situation rapidly morphed from tenuous to impossible, compounded by heavy-handed decisions by new AD Hart (punctuated by damaging lawsuits) and mounting evidence of Holly's inadequacies as The Head Coach.

In retrospect, issues with four players stand out as hastening the weakness of Holly's control over the team.

First, she inherited an uncontrollable talent (Simmons) who once represented a recruiting triumph for Pat but became highly visible evidence that Holly could not control a rambunctious player.

Next, amid much hoopla, she secured three players who seemed destined to lead the LadyVols back to The Promised Land: Russell, Cooper, and DeShields. We all now know how that has been working out.​

Finally, worse came to worst. A complete whiff on '16 recruits, exacerbated by damaging hints (Harper) about the program's status and the publicly dashed hopes of landing quality recruits like McCoy and Cox.

Holly seems secure for a few more years @ $600,00+ and no reputable coach would consider wading into that cessool for less than $1M+/5 years.

The LadyVols situation has now become beyond pathetic -- a total tragedy.

R.I.P.
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Excellent analysis, as usual. Like you, I apply the "tragedy" label to this situation, partly because the end result diminishes WCBB (even though some other programs, like SC, have since emerged as contenders), but even more because the slide at UT serves as a potential looming object lesson for the rest of us...especially those of us who have been spoiled by the presence of a legendary coach.

Also like you, irrespective of all the calls for her head, I don't think Holly is going anywhere anytime soon. If that assumption proves correct, and with the added complications posed by the awful publicity generated by the current litigation activity against the university, I think that those who suggest that the recruitment whiff we've just witnessed might just be a one-year anomaly are almost certainly mistaken. Just as you point out the unlikelihood of a top coach being recruited as a possible near-term replacement, the national recruitment picture even beyond 2016 has to be characterized as pretty grim. I love historic epic rivalries in sports. This one appears forever dead...sad.
 
Kaizen said:
I have a question. Why UTenn has not recruited any player in 2016?
Is it because no one wants to come to UTenn or no scholarship available?
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Definitely NOT scholarship availability.
 
ericsandiego said:
BUT... look at all the close games. The games Tennessee lost to Kentucky, Missisisppi State, and SC were all by just a couple points, and the loss to aTm was only by 5 points. My point is that they were right in those games. I do not disagree that they need to change up the offense, but why aren't people saying the same thing especially about Kentucky and SC and aTm - teams who ONLY beat Tennessee by 1, 6, and 5 points .
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I agree with your points - well written post. But specific to close games, we should also recognize that some of their victories against teams they were expected to clobber were also cliffhangers.
 
the unlikelihood of a top coach being recruited as a possible near-term replacement
this is the difference between the women's and men's game. In the latter, most coaches would jump at the chance to rebuild a previously great program, whatever the foundational problems.
 
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GG said:
I recognize, and completely understand, why many within the Tn fan base are both upset and disappointed by the team and CHW, but is the sky really falling? The team is loaded with talent. With another year together under their belts, I would think tn (on paper) would be a contender next year (I know, they should have been one this year). Now the fans are speculating that players may transfer. Is CHW the problem or is it chemistry? The silly end of game decisions....is that on the coach or the players. I see, what appears to me, to be a bit of an attitude issue with certain of their players (one in particular). But what does it stem from? Where do folks here think the problems lie?
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I think they expect too much! Holly is not Pat Summitt
 
Everything being said is very true. The bottom line is that Pat Summitt is no longer the coach and, let's face it, it will be an almost IMPOSSIBLE job for anyone filling those shoes. They can not be filled. The Vol fans are being unreasonable in their expectations! And...., not very nice. All this screaming and complaining will accomplish very little!
 
Some of you may have seen this on the Big Monday's telecast, but I thought I'd post here as well.

Chiney Ogwumike's take on Tennessee:

 
cabbie191 said:
I agree with your points - well written post. But specific to close games, we should also recognize that some of their victories against teams they were expected to clobber were also cliffhangers.
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Yep - you are absolutely right. And several of their close wins were over teams who were average at best. But overall my point is that even most of the upper teams in the SEC aren't lighting it up, and certainly not against Tennessee. Side note - I feel dirty for defending them, but really I just want Holly to stick around forever...
 
Kaizen said:
I have a question. Why UTenn has not recruited any player in 2016?
Is it because no one wants to come to UTenn or no scholarship available?
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For an abstract answer to your question, I invite your attention to an old adage:

"Word gets around."​

In any field of endeavor, "word" about the inner workings of an entity (school, store, auto model, sports franchise, corporation, etc.) gets around through a magical grapevine. A very common example is the arcane method applied by students when identifying "best" courses or instructors. HS hotshots don't need to read the NY Times or The Summitt to be aware of the turbulence in U.Tenn. -- it's all available on their cell phone through the network of pals being recruited (and pals of their pals). So you can be sure that Jade and Christyn and Megan and Charli know all about each other's recruitment -- and the experiences of Lauren and Tori and others as well. "Word does indeed get around.";)
 
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Funny or sad thing is that I still tape and then watch Tennessee games when they lose. That rivalry will stay with me for the rest of my life.
 
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