Andre Jackson making fans

[jibsey]

Steph or Eddy?

Chicken...

 

[willie99]

Better release point combined with some elevation. And defenders running him off his spot

Are you kidding me? I love it, go AJ

 

[Hunt for 7]

Best practice is releasing the ball on the way up, not at the apex. Ain't the 90s any more.

Have you ever watched Hawkins shoot. I know you are an expert but this is not correct. Ray Allen released it at the top of his jump. The motion starts on the way up. Just look at the film.

 

[caw]

Have you ever watched Hawkins shoot. I know you are an expert but this is not correct. Ray Allen released it at the top of his jump. The motion starts on the way up. Just look at the film.

He's not wrong, now most shooting coaches teach the Curry style of shooting over the Allen style.

Debatable which is better all things considered as where Curry's shot sacrifices the high release point it has the advantage of being a quicker release with arguably less motion to mess up. I'd argue Allen's form is better if you are getting a lot of shots off of off-ball screens (which isn't common anymore in the NBA, while Curry's is better off the dribble. Catch and shoot is up in the air because really mechanics are less important than consistency and touch.

Jackson's shot at UConn was bad mechanically but it also was inconsistent in how it was bad. His mechanics are better now, if marginally but he is still inconsistent in how he shoots. The big positive I saw is that his looks more connected to his lower body now and his elbow is marginally better. His release point is still off and inconsistent, as are the fingers that control the shot.

 

[Hunt for 7]

He's not wrong, now most shooting coaches teach the Curry style of shooting over the Allen style.

Debatable which is better all things considered as where Curry's shot sacrifices the high release point it has the advantage of being a quicker release with arguably less motion to mess up. I'd argue Allen's form is better if you are getting a lot of shots off of off-ball screens (which isn't common anymore in the NBA, while Curry's is better off the dribble. Catch and shoot is up in the air because really mechanics are less important than consistency and touch.

Jackson's shot at UConn was bad mechanically but it also was inconsistent in how it was bad. His mechanics are better now, if marginally but he is still inconsistent in how he shoots. The big positive I saw is that his looks more connected to his lower body now and his elbow is marginally better. His release point is still off and inconsistent, as are the fingers that control the shot.

So does Hawk shoot it on the way up or just as he is getting to his apex? His shot looks a lot like Allen’s. I understand being able to shoot from different release points. But Curry developed that to keep usually a bigger defender off balance. With Andres hops and if he shot more like Hawk from a form perspective he would not have to pump fake move his feet to get open enough to shoot. You develop what you have to to give you the best chance to get the shot off. Just curious about how “they” now teach foul shooting. Because a jump shot and a foul shot are not the same thing.

 

[Kenny11]

Does Andre's brother still play in college? Is his shot normal looking?

 

[husky429]

Have you ever watched Hawkins shoot. I know you are an expert but this is not correct. Ray Allen released it at the top of his jump. The motion starts on the way up. Just look at the film.

I need to stop biting on these, but we can all learn about jump shooting. It's a fun topic.

TL;DR: Ray Allen doesn't shoot wrong, we just teach people different nowadays. The focus isn't on elevation and releasing at the apex of the shot. We focus more on having a small, compact and consistent leg drive that impacts the flight of the ball the same way every shot instead of "jumping higher" to shoot at longer ranges. Modern players shoot more accurately overall from range because they have a much smoother transition from the legs to the arms.

I wish I could claim to be an expert, but I'm far from it; I just listen to those who know better than me. If it makes you feel better I was keyed into this first from one of our current assistant coaches a decade ago. I wouldn't even say you're "wrong" because there are great players who release at the apex of the shot still. And at the end of the day, we're talking about milliseconds of difference between apex/before/after. Where you go wrong is thinking it's a requirement to shoot at the apex, or that Ray Allen is a paragon of shooting form currently in the game of basketball. Heck, I shoot at the apex of my shot and I'm the best jump shooter on this message board.

I never said Ray Allen or Hawkins shoots wrong, because they don't. Hawkins actually has better timing on his shot than Ray by modern standards. Ray's shot is just an old school way of shooting that you wouldn't use with someone building a shot from the ground up (like Jackson needs). My philosophy has always been "if the shot has enough arc and has consistent mechanics from toes to fingertips, it doesn't really matter what it looks like." Coaches focus more on having consistent and smooth form so you get the power of the legs into the shot instead of using them to get HIGHER UP like they did in the old days.

An example of modern shooting having less jump and a different type of power generation.... Compare Ray Allen here actually shooting on the way DOWN after a high jump versus Klay here releasing on the way up with way less elevation. That doesn't even include Steph who practically doesn't leave the floor on his 3s sometimes. I think you can see after looking at the video that Ray's legs don't actually impact the shot much because he releases at the apex and the ball leaves his fingertips just after he starts going down.

It's week 1 of high school physics. When you're at the apex of a jump, what happens? You stop momentarily. That means nothing is propelling the ball forward and up towards the hoop except for Ray's arms. This was true for a lot of old school shooters. Modern shooters focus on a more compact leg drive that impacts the propulsion of the ball forward. And by having a small, consistent leg drive, it limits the variables of the shot so they only need to concern themselves with the upper body in order to adjust for range.

Back in the day when I was learning, the common practice was to jump high and focus on releasing your shot at the top. This was more important in the days when we took a lot of mid-range because you need to elevate over very close defenders. Guys with a great mid-range shot like Booker still elevate a lot when they pull up in the mid-range to reach over a defender, but when shooting 3s rely on a more modern form. Nowadays with the proliferation of 3s, the focus has been more on having a FAST shot. Steph Curry really revolutionized the game in that way and you've seen hoopers of all ages adapt their shot because of him.

Look closely at Steph, Klay, Booker, Tatum. Shoot even the bigs like Joker or Embiid. None of them elevates the way we saw MJ, Allen or Kobe do. To be fair, some freaks like Klay can actually shoot both ways because they're just that good.

 

[husky429]

Does Andre's brother still play in college? Is his shot normal looking?

He always had a better looking shot, but wasn't as athletic or skilled overall. I think because he was smaller and couldn't jump as high, he probably was forced to learn to shoot better when competing as a kid.

 

[EZPass]

Heck, I shoot at the apex of my shot and I'm the best jump shooter on this message board.

I’m definitely not but I found this old clip on my insta…baggy shorts n all

 

[prankster]

He shot 25% from three last night, and is at 20% throughout the preseason. He was at 28% last season at UConn

The form looks better and it's clear he's been in the gym, but he still has a lot of practice and development to get to a good level. Hopefully he can train his way into at least 33-35%. I think that will be the threshold to be considered a good enough 3P percentage

His 3pt percentage is somewhat a casualty of the tyranny of low numbers.

28% last year. Vs. 25% this year, so far. Take 1 more shot, and it falls, suddenly 30% (as an illustration). As the # of shots goes up, the % becomes a much more stable (and appropriately representative/descriptive) number.

 

[uconnfan68]

He shot 25% from three last night, and is at 20% throughout the preseason. He was at 28% last season at UConn

The form looks better and it's clear he's been in the gym, but he still has a lot of practice and development to get to a good level. Hopefully he can train his way into at least 33-35%. I think that will be the threshold to be considered a good enough 3P percentage

The form is SO much better, and I expect the ball to start falling for him.

 

[ElPresidente]

Our boy is showing as active on the team roster. Would love to see him on the floor Thursday night. Definitely will become a crowd favorite.

 

[Excalibur]

So does Hawk shoot it on the way up or just as he is getting to his apex?

Hawkins can actually do both, but the vast majority are apex (or very near apex) shots. Probably better for him given his ability to elevate quickly.

 

[Dogdeacon]

His 3pt percentage is somewhat a casualty of the tyranny of low numbers.

28% last year. Vs. 25% this year, so far. Take 1 more shot, and it falls, suddenly 30% (as an illustration). As the # of shots goes up, the % becomes a much more stable (and appropriately representative/descriptive) number.

Eh, guys who are confident shooting 3's shoot them, particularly in today's game. Most shooting a low percentage on a low # of attempts should probably keep that number low.

With respect to Andre, obviously given his position and today's NBA he needs to take and make WIDE OPEN 3's, regardless I'd measure his success by attempts at the rim. There he really did need to shoot more, drive and work thru the misses as his athleticism favorably impacts his odds of figuring out how to finish.

 

[husky429]

So does Hawk shoot it on the way up or just as he is getting to his apex? His shot looks a lot like Allen’s. I understand being able to shoot from different release points. But Curry developed that to keep usually a bigger defender off balance. With Andres hops and if he shot more like Hawk from a form perspective he would not have to pump fake move his feet to get open enough to shoot. You develop what you have to to give you the best chance to get the shot off. Just curious about how “they” now teach foul shooting. Because a jump shot and a foul shot are not the same thing.

Hawkins is good enough that he's developing both types of shooting, but is primarily an Allen-esque shooter who elevates above defenders. He's a brilliant shooter off screens when he elevates though, that much is obvious.

A big part of his shooting like Allen with a big jump is because he shoots primarily off screens and without much (if any) dribbling. It is much harder to shoot consistently and accurately with a high jump when you're shooting off the dribble. That's a major reason why you're seeing guys learn to shoot with a smaller, compact jump and a faster shot (rather than a slower shot that elevates over shooters).

Foul shooting is taught similarly modern shooting. Obviously no one is jumping in the air to elevate over a defender to shoot a foul shot. You're going to see coaches focusing on a high release point, keeping the ball close to the body as you lift from hip to set point, a high arc, and keeping a consistent finger position (usually index finger on the middle of the ball, but splitting middle and index is common too).

A subtle "tell" of bad foul shooters is that they hold the ball away from their body and swing it up to their head to release. Giannis comes to mind.

 

[Hunt for 7]

Hawkins is good enough that he's developing both types of shooting, but is primarily an Allen-esque shooter who elevates above defenders. He's a brilliant shooter off screens when he elevates though, that much is obvious.

A big part of his shooting like Allen with a big jump is because he shoots primarily off screens and without much (if any) dribbling. It is much harder to shoot consistently and accurately with a high jump when you're shooting off the dribble. That's a major reason why you're seeing guys learn to shoot with a smaller, compact jump and a faster shot (rather than a slower shot that elevates over shooters).

Foul shooting is taught similarly modern shooting. Obviously no one is jumping in the air to elevate over a defender to shoot a foul shot. You're going to see coaches focusing on a high release point, keeping the ball close to the body as you lift from hip to set point, a high arc, and keeping a consistent finger position (usually index finger on the middle of the ball, but splitting middle and index is common too).

A subtle "tell" of bad foul shooters is that they hold the ball away from their body and swing it up to their head to release. Giannis comes to mind.

The more I have thought about this and researched, I will admit that you understood the specifics to a greater degree than I did. Your information was much more contemporary. It’s funny because when I played in high school late 70s early 80’s. I would have all kind of release points if I was shooting off the dribble. Now mind you back in those days shooting off the dribble unless it was a lay up was frowned upon by my coach. And usually more so for average high school players like me. Our coach was fairly well respected in CT coaching circles at the time. The other thing he hated that I did was dribble penetration and kick out. I found it to be effective but it was not really coached at the time. If you were penetrating back then you were either going to shoot floater or lay up or passing the ball to the open man who was cutting to the basket once his man left him to stop my penetration. All this because I was 5’10” with my shoes on, so I was vertically challenged so you had to create. I was fast enough to usually beat my man off the dribble but once I ran into anyone 6’7” or taller I was going to get my shot blocked. I found it was easier to kick out than press an interior pass. I will tell you just like the cross over dribble was starting to be allowed and that really changed the game in my time. I had enough success with kicking it out that he eventually allowed more of it and it helped us in my senior year. So maybe I was ahead of my time then and now I am just old and out of date with how the game in coached and taught. My BBIQ has definitely improved since I rejoined the BY last year.

 

[pj]

At the apex (of the head, not the hand) the head is stationary, rather than rising or falling, and the eyes can best focus on the basket and judge location. An apex shot gives the most time to arrange hand-brain-eye coordination, this is best for accuracy.

At the apex of the head, the arm is still straightening/lengthening and imparting forward momentum to the ball. So the hand is still on its way up, even though the head has reached the apex of its jump.

You can get a bit more power and extend your range if you shoot while the body and head are still moving upward, but with a big cost in accuracy. It is unnatural to shoot this way and I have not seen anyone who does this. Bad shooters tend to shoot when the head is on the way down, good shooters at the apex of the head movement.

I think the historical change is not about the timing of shot relative to jump, the shot always is controlled at the apex of the head movement -- that is, the moment shortly before release when maximum force is applied to the ball and direction of the ball most influenced is also the moment when the head is highest and slowest moving. What has changed is that people don't jump as high and they don't extend the arms as fully before release. Speed of release and controlled accuracy has mattered more than height of release, with the shift to 3 point shooting.

Things happen so quickly it is hard to see the timing in real time. Slo-mo is needed and you'll find that for everyone, the shot leaves the hand very shortly after the head ceases to rise.

429 makes good points about the difference in shooting off the dribble and shooting off screens.

 

[husky429]

The more I have thought about this and researched, I will admit that you understood the specifics to a greater degree than I did. Your information was much more contemporary. It’s funny because when I played in high school late 70s early 80’s. I would have all kind of release points if I was shooting off the dribble. Now mind you back in those days shooting off the dribble unless it was a lay up was frowned upon by my coach. And usually more so for average high school players like me. Our coach was fairly well respected in CT coaching circles at the time. The other thing he hated that I did was dribble penetration and kick out. I found it to be effective but it was not really coached at the time. If you were penetrating back then you were either going to shoot floater or lay up or passing the ball to the open man who was cutting to the basket once his man left him to stop my penetration. All this because I was 5’10” with my shoes on, so I was vertically challenged so you had to create. I was fast enough to usually beat my man off the dribble but once I ran into anyone 6’7” or taller I was going to get my shot blocked. I found it was easier to kick out than press an interior pass. I will tell you just like the cross over dribble was starting to be allowed and that really changed the game in my time. I had enough success with kicking it out that he eventually allowed more of it and it helped us in my senior year. So maybe I was ahead of my time then and now I am just old and out of date with how the game in coached and taught. My BBIQ has definitely improved since I rejoined the BY last year.

It's funny how the game has changed. I doubt there's a coach in the state who would give you grief for a drive-and-kick these days--it's one of the highest PPP looks out there. And pretty much no one coaches a cutter at the same time as a driver now except maybe behind a zone from the FT line or something.

I think we really overestimated the effectiveness of those interior passes until very recently. They result in A LOT of turnovers at the high school level and require your cutters to have great hands. They have an important place in the game, but it does take a high BBIQ team to pull off well.

 

[husky429]

At the apex (of the head, not the hand) the head is stationary, rather than rising or falling, and the eyes can best focus on the basket and judge location. An apex shot gives the most time to arrange hand-brain-eye coordination, this is best for accuracy.

At the apex of the head, the arm is still straightening/lengthening and imparting forward momentum to the ball. So the hand is still on its way up, even though the head has reached the apex of its jump.

You can get a bit more power and extend your range if you shoot while the body and head are still moving upward, but with a big cost in accuracy. It is unnatural to shoot this way and I have not seen anyone who does this. Bad shooters tend to shoot when the head is on the way down, good shooters at the apex of the head movement.

I think the historical change is not about the timing of shot relative to jump, the shot always is controlled at the apex of the head movement -- that is, the moment shortly before release when maximum force is applied to the ball and direction of the ball most influenced is also the moment when the head is highest and slowest moving. What has changed is that people don't jump as high and they don't extend the arms as fully before release. Speed of release and controlled accuracy has mattered more than height of release, with the shift to 3 point shooting.

Things happen so quickly it is hard to see the timing in real time. Slo-mo is needed and you'll find that for everyone, the shot leaves the hand very shortly after the head ceases to rise.

429 makes good points about the difference in shooting off the dribble and shooting off screens.

It's hard to understand exactly what you're saying because you aren't quite using the terminology I normally hear. When people say "apex" they are always referring to the apex of the jump. When someone wants to refer to the hand, you're referring to a "set point" (by the eyebrow-ish) or a "release point" (elbow above the eyes).

Your third paragraph really isn't correct though.

There have been great shooters shooting before, during and after the apex of the jump. After the shot seems to mostly be great mid-range shooters because they like to fall away.

While it's correct you get more range when you release on the way up, it's not correct that it impacts accuracy. Literally the best shooter in the history of the game releases before the apex of his (very small) jump. The best shooters in the game right now almost all shoot on the way up.

I'll point back to simple physics. If you're at the true apex of the jump, that means the entire shot is arm-based, because you are no longer moving up or forward at all. The legs lifted you into the air, but they aren't propelling the ball forward and up. That's what you see with Ray's shot, and that is why he had such a strong arm heave. His shot is still gorgeous, don't get me wrong, but it's just not a shot that is conducive to either shooting off the dribble or from longer distances. This video explains it via Booker's shot pretty well.

The biggest issue with Ray's type of shot, especially for younger shooters, is that it impacts accuracy at range. When you have the legs involved in the actual propulsion of the ball more (and the same way every shot), you can use less arm muscle and maintain the integrity and consistency of the shoting form. It's how a guy like Curry, Klay, or Booker can seem to shoot the ball for 35 feet with consistency and older school shooters didn't even bother to shoot from there.