Andre Jackson making fans

[Hunt for 7]

Hawkins is good enough that he's developing both types of shooting, but is primarily an Allen-esque shooter who elevates above defenders. He's a brilliant shooter off screens when he elevates though, that much is obvious.

A big part of his shooting like Allen with a big jump is because he shoots primarily off screens and without much (if any) dribbling. It is much harder to shoot consistently and accurately with a high jump when you're shooting off the dribble. That's a major reason why you're seeing guys learn to shoot with a smaller, compact jump and a faster shot (rather than a slower shot that elevates over shooters).

Foul shooting is taught similarly modern shooting. Obviously no one is jumping in the air to elevate over a defender to shoot a foul shot. You're going to see coaches focusing on a high release point, keeping the ball close to the body as you lift from hip to set point, a high arc, and keeping a consistent finger position (usually index finger on the middle of the ball, but splitting middle and index is common too).

A subtle "tell" of bad foul shooters is that they hold the ball away from their body and swing it up to their head to release. Giannis comes to mind.

The more I have thought about this and researched, I will admit that you understood the specifics to a greater degree than I did. Your information was much more contemporary. It’s funny because when I played in high school late 70s early 80’s. I would have all kind of release points if I was shooting off the dribble. Now mind you back in those days shooting off the dribble unless it was a lay up was frowned upon by my coach. And usually more so for average high school players like me. Our coach was fairly well respected in CT coaching circles at the time. The other thing he hated that I did was dribble penetration and kick out. I found it to be effective but it was not really coached at the time. If you were penetrating back then you were either going to shoot floater or lay up or passing the ball to the open man who was cutting to the basket once his man left him to stop my penetration. All this because I was 5’10” with my shoes on, so I was vertically challenged so you had to create. I was fast enough to usually beat my man off the dribble but once I ran into anyone 6’7” or taller I was going to get my shot blocked. I found it was easier to kick out than press an interior pass. I will tell you just like the cross over dribble was starting to be allowed and that really changed the game in my time. I had enough success with kicking it out that he eventually allowed more of it and it helped us in my senior year. So maybe I was ahead of my time then and now I am just old and out of date with how the game in coached and taught. My BBIQ has definitely improved since I rejoined the BY last year.

 

[pj]

At the apex (of the head, not the hand) the head is stationary, rather than rising or falling, and the eyes can best focus on the basket and judge location. An apex shot gives the most time to arrange hand-brain-eye coordination, this is best for accuracy.

At the apex of the head, the arm is still straightening/lengthening and imparting forward momentum to the ball. So the hand is still on its way up, even though the head has reached the apex of its jump.

You can get a bit more power and extend your range if you shoot while the body and head are still moving upward, but with a big cost in accuracy. It is unnatural to shoot this way and I have not seen anyone who does this. Bad shooters tend to shoot when the head is on the way down, good shooters at the apex of the head movement.

I think the historical change is not about the timing of shot relative to jump, the shot always is controlled at the apex of the head movement -- that is, the moment shortly before release when maximum force is applied to the ball and direction of the ball most influenced is also the moment when the head is highest and slowest moving. What has changed is that people don't jump as high and they don't extend the arms as fully before release. Speed of release and controlled accuracy has mattered more than height of release, with the shift to 3 point shooting.

Things happen so quickly it is hard to see the timing in real time. Slo-mo is needed and you'll find that for everyone, the shot leaves the hand very shortly after the head ceases to rise.

429 makes good points about the difference in shooting off the dribble and shooting off screens.

 

[husky429]

The more I have thought about this and researched, I will admit that you understood the specifics to a greater degree than I did. Your information was much more contemporary. It’s funny because when I played in high school late 70s early 80’s. I would have all kind of release points if I was shooting off the dribble. Now mind you back in those days shooting off the dribble unless it was a lay up was frowned upon by my coach. And usually more so for average high school players like me. Our coach was fairly well respected in CT coaching circles at the time. The other thing he hated that I did was dribble penetration and kick out. I found it to be effective but it was not really coached at the time. If you were penetrating back then you were either going to shoot floater or lay up or passing the ball to the open man who was cutting to the basket once his man left him to stop my penetration. All this because I was 5’10” with my shoes on, so I was vertically challenged so you had to create. I was fast enough to usually beat my man off the dribble but once I ran into anyone 6’7” or taller I was going to get my shot blocked. I found it was easier to kick out than press an interior pass. I will tell you just like the cross over dribble was starting to be allowed and that really changed the game in my time. I had enough success with kicking it out that he eventually allowed more of it and it helped us in my senior year. So maybe I was ahead of my time then and now I am just old and out of date with how the game in coached and taught. My BBIQ has definitely improved since I rejoined the BY last year.

It's funny how the game has changed. I doubt there's a coach in the state who would give you grief for a drive-and-kick these days--it's one of the highest PPP looks out there. And pretty much no one coaches a cutter at the same time as a driver now except maybe behind a zone from the FT line or something.

I think we really overestimated the effectiveness of those interior passes until very recently. They result in A LOT of turnovers at the high school level and require your cutters to have great hands. They have an important place in the game, but it does take a high BBIQ team to pull off well.

 

[husky429]

At the apex (of the head, not the hand) the head is stationary, rather than rising or falling, and the eyes can best focus on the basket and judge location. An apex shot gives the most time to arrange hand-brain-eye coordination, this is best for accuracy.

At the apex of the head, the arm is still straightening/lengthening and imparting forward momentum to the ball. So the hand is still on its way up, even though the head has reached the apex of its jump.

You can get a bit more power and extend your range if you shoot while the body and head are still moving upward, but with a big cost in accuracy. It is unnatural to shoot this way and I have not seen anyone who does this. Bad shooters tend to shoot when the head is on the way down, good shooters at the apex of the head movement.

I think the historical change is not about the timing of shot relative to jump, the shot always is controlled at the apex of the head movement -- that is, the moment shortly before release when maximum force is applied to the ball and direction of the ball most influenced is also the moment when the head is highest and slowest moving. What has changed is that people don't jump as high and they don't extend the arms as fully before release. Speed of release and controlled accuracy has mattered more than height of release, with the shift to 3 point shooting.

Things happen so quickly it is hard to see the timing in real time. Slo-mo is needed and you'll find that for everyone, the shot leaves the hand very shortly after the head ceases to rise.

429 makes good points about the difference in shooting off the dribble and shooting off screens.

It's hard to understand exactly what you're saying because you aren't quite using the terminology I normally hear. When people say "apex" they are always referring to the apex of the jump. When someone wants to refer to the hand, you're referring to a "set point" (by the eyebrow-ish) or a "release point" (elbow above the eyes).

Your third paragraph really isn't correct though.

There have been great shooters shooting before, during and after the apex of the jump. After the shot seems to mostly be great mid-range shooters because they like to fall away.

While it's correct you get more range when you release on the way up, it's not correct that it impacts accuracy. Literally the best shooter in the history of the game releases before the apex of his (very small) jump. The best shooters in the game right now almost all shoot on the way up.

I'll point back to simple physics. If you're at the true apex of the jump, that means the entire shot is arm-based, because you are no longer moving up or forward at all. The legs lifted you into the air, but they aren't propelling the ball forward and up. That's what you see with Ray's shot, and that is why he had such a strong arm heave. His shot is still gorgeous, don't get me wrong, but it's just not a shot that is conducive to either shooting off the dribble or from longer distances. This video explains it via Booker's shot pretty well.

The biggest issue with Ray's type of shot, especially for younger shooters, is that it impacts accuracy at range. When you have the legs involved in the actual propulsion of the ball more (and the same way every shot), you can use less arm muscle and maintain the integrity and consistency of the shoting form. It's how a guy like Curry, Klay, or Booker can seem to shoot the ball for 35 feet with consistency and older school shooters didn't even bother to shoot from there.