American Pharoh

[B1GEast]

He still holds the Belmont record by 2 seconds, which is between 10-12 lengths at that distance. He would still dominate.

I don't know how you get 10 lengths in 2 seconds. I'm not questioning Secretariat, just the field he ran against.

It's the Wilt Chamberlain type of debate.

 

[nomar]

I don't know how you get 10 lengths in 2 seconds. I'm not questioning Secretariat, just the field he ran against.

It's the Wilt Chamberlain type of debate.

It's a very different debate because you can't compare "points" sports with "time" sports, and the comparison here actually strengthens the case for Secretariat.

Secretariat put up the best time in Belmont history AND the best time in Preakness history AND the best time in Kentucky Derby history, without a great deal of competition (at least in the Belmont -- the runner-up in both the Derby and the Preakness was Sham, which by all accounts was a horse-of-the-year talent). The question is whether he would have done even better if pushed by the likes of Affirmed, Barbaro, American Pharoah, etc.

Wilt, Babe Ruth -- that's totally different. No doubt they would have dominated, but Wilt wouldn't have averaged 50 points a game. His numbers would be worse in today's NBA. Secretariat wouldn't be slower today.

 

[Waquoit]

I don't know how you get 10 lengths in 2 seconds. I'm not questioning Secretariat, just the field he ran against.

It's the Wilt Chamberlain type of debate.

Secretariat ran against very tough competition. Besides Sham, Forego ran in his Kentucky Derby. Forego ended being a multiple Horse of the Year winner.

 

[Fishy]

Secretariat is an anomaly - very hard to even have a conversation comparing him to any other racehorse.

But American Pharoah has earned his way into the Seattle Slew/Affirmed wing of the greats.

He clipped along running almost even quarter mile splits yesterday - he just has such a high cruising speed that good horses are used up even laying off him.

I did a quick check yesterday and couldn't find a faster final quarter than the 24.3-ish that American Pharoah ran yesterday.

Remarkable critter.

 

[jibsey]

The clock in horse racing provides the measure that horses can be judged by especially the Belmont's mile and a half where often this win eclipses the other 2 triple races. Secretariat is the greatest of all time until another horse wins the triple and breaks his Belmont record IMO.

 

[Excalibur]

I don't know how you get 10 lengths in 2 seconds.

Math.

 

[B1GEast]

Math.

show me

 

[Waquoit]

show me

It's long been a rule-of-thumb at the track that a length equals a 5th of a second.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

If a length is nine feet (which would be an very large horse), ten lengths would be ninety feet or thirty yards. An elite human runner, already in full stride can cover thirty yard in three seconds. As these thoroughbreds are elite runners who can run considerably faster than a human, ten lengths in two seconds doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

[Waquoit]

Does anyone know how much the horse is getting to make little Pharoahs?

This article in the New York Times says the breeding rights sold for $13.8M. I read that breeders look to get their money back from a stallion in 4 years. So if you figure 120 pokes a year, that's 480 in four. Divide that into 13.8M, round up a bit and you get $30K a pop. But if he goes on to win the Breeders Cup and others I'm sure that will go higher.

 

[HooperScooper]

This article in the New York Times says the breeding rights sold for $13.8M. I read that breeders look to get their money back from a stallion in 4 years. So if you figure 120 pokes a year, that's 480 in four. Divide that into 13.8M, round up a bit and you get $30K a pop. But if he goes on to win the Breeders Cup and others I'm sure that will go higher.

Geeze, and I thought hookers were expensive.

 

[jibsey]

Geeze, and I thought hookers were expensive.

Well, it beats the heck out of most of our retirement plans.

 

[Robertelamin]

This article in the New York Times says the breeding rights sold for $13.8M. I read that breeders look to get their money back from a stallion in 4 years. So if you figure 120 pokes a year, that's 480 in four. Divide that into 13.8M, round up a bit and you get $30K a pop. But if he goes on to win the Breeders Cup and others I'm sure that will go higher.

If I'm the owner I'm never letting that horse race again. We have all seen how fragile their legs can be and then what happens next. Take the money and run!

 

[Scottzer]

It was the 6th fastest Belmont ever (better than Affirmed), and he wasn't even pushed.

Yeah, but secretariat wasn't pushed and was a full two seconds ahead. At 37.5 miles per hour, I think that means 110+ feet ahead of this winner.

So, I dunno about being a great horse. But, this is the first triple crown winner in my lifetime.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I saw the Secretariat Triple,
The Belmont was a super-equine feat
But forgotten is Big Red got a bad early break in the Preakness ,a short race.
When he turned it on coming into the last turn,
He passed horses like they were literally standing still
It was a 396 SS against a Yugo.
I love AP, but I remememer those jaw-dropping runs 40 years later,

 

[Doheny]

Secretariat is an anomaly - very hard to even have a conversation comparing him to any other racehorse.

But American Pharoah has earned his way into the Seattle Slew/Affirmed wing of the greats.

He clipped along running almost even quarter mile splits yesterday - he just has such a high cruising speed that good horses are used up even laying off ohim.

I did a quick check yesterday and couldn't find a faster final quarter than the 24.3-ish that American Pharoah ran yesterday.

Remarkable critter.

Secretariat had a rare genetic anomaly - a heart much larger than normal. Sort of like adding a turbocharger to a good race car. He was spectacular.
I was impressed, though, by how smoothly, not laboring at all, American Pharoah ran that last, very fast, 1/4 mile. Equally spectacular.

 

[Excalibur]

Yeah, but secretariat wasn't pushed and was a full two seconds ahead. At 37.5 miles per hour, I think that means 110+ feet ahead of this winner.

So, I dunno about being a great horse. But, this is the first triple crown winner in my lifetime.

I don't think you can equate not being Secretariat with not being a great horse. Historically, it looks to me like the second most impressive run through the triple crown races ever.

 

[mauconnfan]

Secretariat had a rare genetic anomaly - a heart much larger than normal. Sort of like adding a turbocharger to a good race car. He was spectacular.
I was impressed, though, by how smoothly, not laboring at all, American Pharoah ran that last, very fast, 1/4 mile. Equally spectacular.

In regards to "how smoothly" AP was my wife said "look how happy that horse looks just to be out there running" and while I laughed at her, she had a point. That horse was rather effortless in its wins.

 

[nomar]

Yeah, but secretariat wasn't pushed and was a full two seconds ahead. At 37.5 miles per hour, I think that means 110+ feet ahead of this winner.

So, I dunno about being a great horse. But, this is the first triple crown winner in my lifetime.

I don't think there's much dispute that Secretariat is the greatest ever, so he really shouldn't be the standard used to determine whether a horse is great. It's like saying a hockey player isn't great because Gretzky was better.

 

[nomar]

Secretariat had a rare genetic anomaly - a heart much larger than normal. Sort of like adding a turbocharger to a good race car. He was spectacular.
I was impressed, though, by how smoothly, not laboring at all, American Pharoah ran that last, very fast, 1/4 mile. Equally spectacular.

The vet that autopsied him didn't weight it but estimated later that the heart weighed 22 pounds -- 2.75 times larger than normal. Literally a freak of nature.

 

[jibsey]

If I'm the owner I'm never letting that horse race again. We have all seen how fragile their legs can be and then what happens next. Take the money and run!

They have the money and the horse is insured, really respect the owner's attitude that he wants fans to see this horse as much as possible this year. Zayat is a real gambler by nature, supposedly bets $200,000 a week on racing, gets in all sorts of trouble with it, but i want to see this horse race as much as they'll let.

 

[IMind]

Sounds reasonable - thinking horses have to be better trained, fed, bred, etc. but a quick look at Wikipedia proves otherwise. Secretariat would be destroying even today's fields.

People say stuff like that all the time, but then don't make the leap that Secretariat would also have these advantages.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

The vet that autopsied him didn't weight it but estimated later that the heart weighed 22 pounds -- 2.75 times larger than normal. Literally a freak of nature.

Secretariat was without question the greatest thoroughbred racehorse ever (and at the time he ran I despised that horse). I really want to know what was going on during breeding season 1969 as in 1970 not only Secretariat but Sham and Forego were also foaled.

Secretariat's official time in the Preakness was mistimed and that is the only reason it isn't the record for that race. He and Sham had the fastest two times in both the Derby and Preakness (I believe Sham is now 2 & 3 in the Derby and Preakness respectively) and Sham broke a tooth in the gate and was spitting blood for the entire race.

Secretariat's heart was just shy of 22 pounds. The second largest on record was Sham at ~ 18.5 and going into that triple crown season many felt Sham would go on to become the greatest speed horse of all time (he fractured a hoof in the Belmont and never raced again). While he ended up in anonymity (save a Disney movie that tried to make it appear that a horse could have been favored over Secretariat in the Belmont), I many ways his role was to illustrate Secretariat's greatness as if the two hadn't run the same year, a lingering questioning may well have been "Yes, Secretariat was a better horse but would he have beaten Sham in either of the shorter (Derby, Preakness) races?". As they went head to head the question never needed to be asked.

If anyone has interest look up the record of Forego. He is considered the greatest gelding ever, has many records for victories and finishing in the money. For years (when purses were well below what they have become) he had the highest total career earnings for any racehorse. That three horses of that quality were born in the same year is amazing.

 

[Waquoit]

Secretariat was without question the greatest thoroughbred racehorse ever (and at the time he ran I despised that horse). I really want to know what was going on during breeding season 1969 as in 1970 not only Secretariat but Sham and Forego were also foaled.

Secretariat's official time in the Preakness was mistimed and that is the only reason it isn't the record for that race. He and Sham had the fastest two times in both the Derby and Preakness (I believe Sham is now 2 & 3 in the Derby and Preakness respectively) and Sham broke a tooth in the gate and was spitting blood for the entire race.

Secretariat's heart was just shy of 22 pounds. The second largest on record was Sham at ~ 18.5 and going into that triple crown season many felt Sham would go on to become the greatest speed horse of all time (he fractured a hoof in the Belmont and never raced again). While he ended up in anonymity (save a Disney movie that tried to make it appear that a horse could have been favored over Secretariat in the Belmont), I many ways his role was to illustrate Secretariat's greatness as if the two hadn't run the same year, a lingering questioning may well have been "Yes, Secretariat was a better horse but would he have beaten Sham in either of the shorter (Derby, Preakness) races?". As they went head to head the question never needed to be asked.

If anyone has interest look up the record of Forego. He is considered the greatest gelding ever, has many records for victories and finishing in the money. For years (when purses were well below what they have become) he had the highest total career earnings for any racehorse. That three horses of that quality were born in the same year is amazing.

Just wondering, why does Secretariat get a free pass for losing twice to unknowns after the Belmont? Shouldn't the greatest of all-time have found a way against a couple of plugs?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I don't think you can equate not being Secretariat with not being a great horse. Historically, it looks to me like the second most impressive run through the triple crown races ever.

Very true. The field could be entirely plow horses and a three year old running those three races, in five weeks, at quality times is an exceptional feat. All anyone needs to do is look at the list of horses that couldn't win all three (including the legendary Man o' War).

When I was young (and the 27 year drought that ended with Secretariat was still intact) Citation was viewed as the most superior above his field (he was well before my time). As AP won all of his races comfortably (Secretariat was seriously challenged in the first two legs), this was a very impressive feat.