ACC

[uconnfan68]

One of the happiest moments of my UConn football rooting career...

Me too.

 

[RS9999X]

I know Carl has taken some flack about the size of his posts (and rightfully so, I might add), but this paragraph is "spot on". The evidence to defend this in my eyes is the fact that Notre Dame has had multiple chances to join the Big10 (or any other of the big conferences for that matter) and has not done so. ..

The BE BCS Bowl agreement with ND says they are open to favorable business arrangements. So I dsagree. How do you define independence? By their BCS bowl agreement?

 

[CTMike]

People are amusing to no end. A new contributor joins the conversation and has the AUDACITY to present a differing viewpoint from two "more established" posters ideas on life in the college realignment landscape... Does so with insight and logic... But he must be wrong, because he's new? Because whoever this person is doesn't have better things to do with his time than make up stories to rile Carl and Nelson's views on life? Surely it can't be that they had erred in their analysis to begin with... That would be inconceivable!

 

[Carl Spackler]

The BE BCS Bowl agreement with ND says they are open to favorable business arrangements. So I dsagree. How do you define independence? By their BCS bowl agreement?

Independance means no revenue sharing. Period. They keep 100% of what they earn as profit. They do not split up any profity they earn from footbal with anyone else. The ducking BCS has nothing to do with it. THe BCS is a paper organization, it's a business arrangement that has been a 20 year attempt to stabilize the intercollegiate landscape, and it's failing.

Up until the 1990's there were 30-35 independant football programs in the country. Everyone knocks my constant repeats of history, but it's frigging foolish to not understand the landscape and try to go into television negotiations. THere's a reason that Notre Dame is the only nationally relevant program to remain independnat aside from the service academies, and BYU now with ESPN support, and an entire religion to follow them.

 

[huskypantz]

I know Carl has taken some flack about the size of his posts (and rightfully so, I might add), but this paragraph is "spot on". The evidence to defend this in my eyes is the fact that Notre Dame has had multiple chances to join the Big10 (or any other of the big conferences for that matter) and has not done so. The money is certainly there, as they would have greatly increased their tv revenue (the Big 10 payout is much larger than the NBC contract for ND). But they didn't join, and they still continue to stay independent. Carl hit the nail on the head, in my opinion...

Notre Dame appears to be satisfied with their current scheduling, bowl and non-football conference situation. When they're no longer happy with the cards on the table, they'll fold and deal in with another conference.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

ND no longer earns more money from football independence than they would as a member the correct conference (B1g, possibly B-12 and most likely the ACC after a new contract that included ND). It hasn't (at least in the eyes of those who make the decisions at ND) reached the point where the combination of NBC exposure and television revenues puts them at a disadvantage when compared to conference membership, television revenues and exposure. The minute television dollars change to the point where ND views this as putting them at a disadvantage (likely when middling schools from power conferences end up with considerably more football revenues than ND) they will seriously investigate their conference options and join the one they believe will serv them best. Until then they will remain independent.

 

[UConnDan97]

The BE BCS Bowl agreement with ND says they are open to favorable business arrangements. So I dsagree. How do you define independence? By their BCS bowl agreement?

I define independence as not being part of a conference in football. Easy definition, really. It means they can adjust their schedule to their liking. It means they control their own tv rights. It means they don't wear a patch on their shoulder with a conference name, advertising a brand. In their minds (and others), they ARE the brand.

The fact that they have bowl tie-ins does not make them part of a conference. The fact that they can take the Big East's Champs Bowl slot has more to do with the Big East's inability to secure certain bowl deals without Notre Dame than it does Notre Dame's inability to secure certain bowl deals without the Big East. And unlike the Auburns of the world, if Notre Dame goes undefeated, they play for the national title; simply put. Is it right? No. Is it fair? No. But it is what it is, and what's worse is, they know it...

 

[FromTheInside]

My question to FROMTHEINSIDE, would be if the Big 12, numbers stand to go up by such significant amounts with Clemson, and FSU, why hasn't that moved happened already? What exactly is the hold up?

First, let me say, I have worked for (been on teams that did valuations for) ESPN/ABC many, many, many times. But, the only major conferences we've been hired directly by are the Big XII, SEC, and Big Ten. When you work with the conferences, you work with the Presidents & ADs, which allows you insight into individual schools & the conference. Since I've never worked with the ACC, I don't have a direct connection to FSU, Clemson, etc. But, I hear a lot through work. And, since I have worked with the Big XII, I maintain professional friendships in the Big XII office and w/in several teams.

Per people in the Big XII office, there won't be any movement until there is a new commissioner hired by the Big XII. No school with options is going to jump in bed w/ a conference that doesn't have a commissioner, b/c the commissioner establishes the conference's vision and direction, maintains order, advances the conference's mission, leads all TV discussions, etc. As is documented, one of the biggest gripes by teams in the ACC is they feel it's an NC-centric conference that caters to the NC schools and the basketball schools, all at the expense of the football schools. The entire reason the ACC schools initially would be interested in hearing from one of the major conferences is b/c of their disdain for Commissioner Swofford. So, WHO the commissioner is, and WHAT he stands for is very important to those school.

This is somewhat of an aside, but informally, some of the things FSU has complained about in discussions w/ Big XII unofficial representatives is the ACC's seemingly intentional efforts to make football success difficult for the non-NC schools. A couple of examples: Every season, FSU asks the ACC to either schedule their bye week the week before the Florida game, or allow them to schedule an OOC opponent, so they can have a pre-Florida cup cake. Instead, the ACC always schedules a conference game for FSU the week before their annual Florida game. And, every other year, they schedule an away game to the far NE the week before. This year they were at home before Florida, but last year, they were @ Maryland the week before the Florida game. On the flip side, the SEC allows Florida to schedule an OOC game the week before the FSU game. They use that game to schedule a cup cake: Furman, Citadel, Appalachian State, Florida Atlantic, and Florida International are the 5 most recent pre-FSU games they've played. So, FSU is put at a competitive disadvantage. They play a tough opponent, half the time an away game, while Florida rests their starters against a cup cake at home.

Another example they've given is that EVERY YEAR, the ACC schedules a Thursday away game for them (never a home game). Half the time, they're given a bye before their Thursday game, and half the time they aren't. Last year, they played NC State at home, then turned around and flew 1,200 to play BC 5 days later. Conversely, North Carolina plays Thursday games every other year (at most), and they are ALWAYS given a bye week before their Thursday game. So, any ACC school that is truly interested is going to do their due diligence and make sure the conference will be balanced w/ regards to representation, and that the commissioner will work on behalf of the league, not individual teams.

In addition several schools have expressed reservations about the length of the consignment of each schools TV rights to the conference. They would like to see it extended beyond 6 years. I haven't heard otherwise, but I can't imagine any of the teams would have an issue w/ this if they're getting a high caliber team in return.

Once a commissioner is in place, they'll have more substantive discussions w/ the teams they're interested in, and are likewise interested in them. Like I said previously, I don't know if the Big XII has made formal contact w/ any team, but I do know they have informally (i.e. through unofficial channels, so they can't get burned by Freedom of Information Act requests). Unofficially, Clemson is very interested. Miami is very interested. Florida State is mildly interested. Georgia Tech isn't interested. Louisville is obviously beating down the door for an invite. Cincy is VERY interested (but has almost no chance). BYU is very interested. Pitt is mildly interested. Arkansas is faintly interested (that might surprise some people). VA Tech, NC State, and Maryland are all on the list, but I don't know if contact has been made with them.

Would Clemson or FSU EVER stand to make as much money in the ACC?

The only way the ACC could make as much money as the Big XII, SEC, Big Ten, and Pac-12 is if (a) they signed Notre Dame, or (b) a number of teams took huge steps forward to being regular national championship contenders. The ACC has a great footprint. Unfortunately, the further north you go in their footprint, the less and less people watch college football. But, they've just locked in a new contract for 12 years, starting this football season. So, any improvement they make as a conference (product on the field wise) won't be represented in their TV revenue until the 2024/25 season, which is when their next contract would start. So, they have to sign someone big in order to move the needle on their contract. They already screwed the pooch with Texas, and none of the SEC or Big Ten teams are going to move over. And, they've shown an unwillingness to compromise on academics (though WVU darn near got enough votes for acceptance). So, it's either Notre Dame or bust.

 

[uconnbaseball]

If Miami somehow ends up in the Big 12, that increases our chances of getting into the ACC. Hopefully if the Big 12 expands, they take an odd number of ACC teams (preferably only one...).

I guess the UConn/Rutgers combo to the Big 12 is a fantasy then, eh?

 

[huskypantz]

Another example they've given is that EVERY YEAR, the ACC schedules a Thursday away game for them (never a home game). Half the time, they're given a bye before their Thursday game, and half the time they aren't. Last year, they played NC State at home, then turned around and flew 1,200 to play BC 5 days later. Conversely, North Carolina plays Thursday games every other year (at most), and they are ALWAYS given a bye week before their Thursday game. So, any ACC school that is truly interested is going to do their due diligence and make sure the conference will be balanced w/ regards to representation, and that the commissioner will work on behalf of the league, not individual teams.

My understanding was that ESPN made the call on who plays on what night. Are you saying that the conference has control over those decisions?

 

[RS9999X]

ND no longer earns more money from football independence than they would as a member the correct conference (B1g, possibly B-12 and most likely the ACC after a new contract that included ND). It hasn't (at least in the eyes of those who make the decisions at ND) reached the point where the combination of NBC exposure and television revenues puts them at a disadvantage when compared to conference membership, television revenues and exposure. The minute television dollars change to the point where ND views this as putting them at a disadvantage (likely when middling schools from power conferences end up with considerably more football revenues than ND) they will seriously investigate their conference options and join the one they believe will serv them best. Until then they will remain independent.

If ND can hire a coach that turns the program around then lightly-aligned makes sense for them. Right now they are in limbo and evaluating mode. Listening to offers

OTOH there are many definitions of Independence (Sorry Carl). It's not tough to envision a scenario where Comcast would say we want 4 BE games every year out of 12 on your schedule. One in Philly and the other at Yankee Stadium and 2 in South Bend. And here's the dollars for it because it gives us 8 ND games a year. We sign it for the length of the media contract. Rutgers /UConn are at Yankee and Temple/Navy is in Philly.

 

[progrocks]

Fromtheinside, do you know why B1G chose Nebraska over Mizzu? Mizzu seemed more of a natural fit and they were begging for entrance. Nebraska came out of nowhere in my mind.

 

[upstater]

Fromtheinside, do you know why B1G chose Nebraska over Mizzu? Mizzu seemed more of a natural fit and they were begging for entrance. Nebraska came out of nowhere in my mind.

Football.

People put so little stock in national cache but yet that's precisely what Delaney was looking at.

National names = $$$.

 

[uconnfan68]

{very long message}

Just wanted to say "thanks" for the insight. Much more than just a "like" was earned.

 

[FromTheInside]

My understanding was that ESPN made the call on who plays on what night. Are you saying that the conference has control over those decisions?

The conference has to make teams available for certain days/games. There's nothing wrong w/ having to play a Thursday game. But, you give them a bye the week before.........just like UNC gets EVERY time they play on Thursday. The real issue isn't what day the games are played, it's that the conference doesn't attempt to help it's star programs. I'm not talking about preferential treatment. I'm talking about making scheduling decisions that don't make it more difficult for programs to be successful. Having a team travel 1,200 miles for a Thursday game, just 5 days after a Saturday game is ridiculous. Having a team travel 1000+ miles for an away conference game, the week before their big SEC rivalry game is ridiculous.........especially when that SEC team is taking the week off annually by scheduling a DII cup cake. When you annually turn down a program's request for scheduling help, to help them be successful in high-profile OOC games, that's a problem. The sentiment w/in the 4 ACC football powers is it feels to them like the ACC doesn't want them to be successful, b/c every year, scheduling decisions are made that put them at a disadvantage to their peers, all the while the favored basketball programs are protected through scheduling.

 

[FromTheInside]

Fromtheinside, do you know why B1G chose Nebraska over Mizzu? Mizzu seemed more of a natural fit and they were begging for entrance. Nebraska came out of nowhere in my mind.

Missouri's fan support and TV #s are p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c!!! Despite being in a heavily populated state, Nebraska destroys them in TV #s. Even Kansas beats them in TV #s. In the Big XII, Texas, A&M, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, and Kansas all surpassed them. And some seasons, so did Oklahoma State and Iowa State. In addition, as the guy above me said, Nebraska is a far more prestigious program. What the Big Ten needed (and wants) was more competition at the top-end of their conference. That's one area where they've seriously lagged the last decade. I think most expect the days of Nebraska competing for championships to be over. But, they should be an annual top 25 team. Missouri, despite a couple flashes in the pan, has only had 5 ranked teams in their 16 year Big XII history, and has missed the post-season 6x. Nebraska's been ranked 11x, and has missed the post-season just twice. The only thing Missouri has going for it is a better basketball program (which has also been spotty - 2 top 25 teams in 16 years) and academics.

 

[The Funster]

Lets say UConn did agree to a long term commit to ND to play games in either Yankee or Foxboro. In that scenario, UConn would have gotten the invite in an effort to entice ND into the ACC. One would presume that the promise of ND would keep FSU and Clemson from jumping to the Big 12.

Everything I have read says that ND has no intention of joining a conference for football, especially if joining the ACC means that by contract they'd have to cede Tier 1,2 & 3 rights. This makes the ACC a house of cards if ND doesn't join ASAP. FSU and Clemson bolt which weakens the football brand noticably. One could say that had UConn moved to the ACC they'd be jumping from the weakest most unstable football conference to one that is only slightly stronger and more stable in the ACC. Being in the ACC would be better than the NNBE but it would still be weak as far as football. It would protect UConn's basketball brand, though.

Someone had written that within 10 years, ND will be in a conference. That may be so but 10 years is akin to a lifetime these days and we have no idea what the landscape will look like in 5 years, let alone 10.

On top of all this can someone show me the value of the Pac12? At what point does someone say they're not worth it? What effect does that have on the landscape going forward?

 

[junglehusky]

Well, I wasn't counting on UConn / Rutgers going to the B1G but based on what Insider said about Nebraska I think we can discount that possibility even further, unless we improve our profile in a major way by the time they make their next move, whenever that will be. Oh well.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Lets say UConn did agree to a long term commit to ND to play games in either Yankee or Foxboro. In that scenario, UConn would have gotten the invite in an effort to entice ND into the ACC. One would presume that the promise of ND would keep FSU and Clemson from jumping to the Big 12.

Everything I have read says that ND has no intention of joining a conference for football, especially if joining the ACC means that by contract they'd have to cede Tier 1,2 & 3 rights. This makes the ACC a house of cards if ND doesn't join ASAP. FSU and Clemson bolt which weakens the football brand noticably. One could say that had UConn moved to the ACC they'd be jumping from the weakest most unstable football conference to one that is only slightly stronger and more stable in the ACC. Being in the ACC would be better than the NNBE but it would still be weak as far as football. It would protect UConn's basketball brand, though.

Someone had written that within 10 years, ND will be in a conference. That may be so but 10 years is akin to a lifetime these days and we have no idea what the landscape will look like in 5 years, let alone 10.

On top of all this can someone show me the value of the Pac12? At what point does someone say they're not worth it? What effect does that have on the landscape going forward?

This concept is foolish. UConn was on the table with Syracuse to be invited to the ACC and Boston College blocked it. Notre Dame football scheudling had nothign to to with it. Notre Dame is the prize though.

The moves the ACC/ESPN made with Cuse and Pitt (supposed to be UConn and Cuse) was entirely about basketball, because that's the only way to get to Notre Dame, in absence of a complete restructuring of the college football post season.

I agree with the poster that said that Notre Dame doesn't make signficantly more than any other conference affiliated football program anymore. THat hasn't been the case since the early 1990s. They are not lagging behind though. Not at all. Here's a comparison of football revenue in teh big 10 in 2011.

You know what, never mind, I"m not posting numbers to back up what I"m saying, it doesnt' seem to be important in this thread.

Suffice to say, Notre Dame, aroudn football revenue, has no incentive to join any conference right now. Independance, in reality, means 100% control of your own football revenue. It means a lot more to ND though, it's become their identity and their pride.

So you move on to the rest of the athletic department...where does the rest of the ND athletic department generate the most revenue? The big east - and I'm not posting numbers on that either....so there.......the big east is the most profitable place for ND to put their non-football sports.

The thing about the ACC, and securing Pitt and Cuse for the future in b-ball isn't really going to change it either....is that the ACC wasn't even #2 behind the Big East in non-football revenue, the ACC was #3 behind the big east and big 10.

Now - the closest ND ever was to joining a conference, was a BOT vote that occurred in London in February 1999. Then entire ND athletic department led by Wadsworth at the time, was unanimously opposed to joining any conference. It made it to the BOT, b/c the big 10 proposal was handed to the right people by Delaney. The vote wasn't close.

Syracuse was targeted by the Big 10 after that vote. Syracuse leadership at the time, was still loyal to the Big East. Syracuse alos had a highly successful football program at the time.

The changes in revenue in 1999 for ND to join the big 10, weren't significant then, and they wouldn't be significant now by joining the big 10.

 

[Dann]

i picture carl to have a anthony davis like eyebrow

 

[FromTheInside]

Well, I wasn't counting on UConn / Rutgers going to the B1G but based on what Insider said about Nebraska I think we can discount that possibility even further, unless we improve our profile in a major way by the time they make their next move, whenever that will be. Oh well.

Connecticut is truly one of the great stories to come out of D1 football the last decade. It's really been a monumental rise. But, the only way the program is going to raise its profile further is (a) to get into NYC, (b) schedule and beat bigger name teams, and (c) start winning the Big East regularly. The Michigan home & home was a good start, as was the Tennessee home & home. But, they've got to get away from scheduling teams like Fordham, Buffalo, Vandy, etc.

 

[tzznandrew]

Connecticut is truly one of the great stories to come out of D1 football the last decade. It's really been a monumental rise. But, the only way the program is going to raise its profile further is (a) to get into NYC, (b) schedule and beat bigger name teams, and (c) start winning the Big East regularly. The Michigan home & home was a good start, as was the Tennessee home & home. But, they've got to get away from scheduling teams like Fordham, Buffalo, Vandy, etc.

The problem is that they need to make bowl games. You don't make bowl games if you don't have some cupcakes. All the top teams play some garbage. And I wouldn't mind continuing to play Vandy.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Connecticut is truly one of the great stories to come out of D1 football the last decade. It's really been a monumental rise. But, the only way the program is going to raise its profile further is (a) to get into NYC, (b) schedule and beat bigger name teams, and (c) start winning the Big East regularly. The Michigan home & home was a good start, as was the Tennessee home & home. But, they've got to get away from scheduling teams like Fordham, Buffalo, Vandy, etc.

Hey, thanks for the vote of confidence. The future (and past) schedules will speak for themselves, schedules are planned years in advance, and for every MIchigan on the non-conference schedule, there's always an Appalachian State, for example. We are establishing presence in NYC, in football on top of what we've got in b-ball. What's more monumental than what we've been able to accomplish on the field is what we've been able to accomplish away from teh field. Until 2010, every UConn football game was not even available on TV in our own CT market.

FYI: Roy Kramer, former SEC commissioner, and one of the major players in establishing the BCS, was the guy that did the legwork and research on the feasibility for UConn to upgrade to 1-A football. He was commissioned by UConn and his feasibility report on football upgrading to 1-A, was presented to the UConn BOT in 1996. His conclusion was that Connecticut was one of the few programs in the country, that clearly fit the profile for a successful 1-A football upgrade. In his report, his profile also indicated that Connecticut had nearly all of the same characteristics of SEC schools, believe it or not. Things that Jim Calhoun has talked about for years. A large local population, state flagship university, no major professional sports to compete with in the state locally, size of the institution.....etc. etc. .... the only major difference being stadium size. The upgrade didn't get formal approval from the BOT until after an invite to join the Big East came in 1997. We almost ran into a major problem because the local community around the Storrs campus was vehemently opposed to the construction of an on campus football stadium of adequate size. The upgrade wasn't official until the current stadium plans became reality in 2000.

I can also tell you first hand, from visiting Vanderbilt fans/family that the football experience at Rentschler in Connecticut, is just as good, as anythign those people visiting from Tennessee said they had experienced in several years of traveling to SEC football games. Lastly, google Robert Griffin III and UConn. Read what he had to say about playing at UConn.

 

[FromTheInside]

The problem is that they need to make bowl games. You don't make bowl games if you don't have some cupcakes. All the top teams play some garbage. And I wouldn't mind continuing to play Vandy.

Agreed. But, here's UConn's OOC schedule since joining the BE:

4x - Buffalo
3x - Army
3x - Temple
2x - Baylor
2x - Duke
2x - GA Tech
2x - North Carolina
2x - Virginia
2x - Vanderbilt
Akron
Indiana
Iowa State
Michigan
Navy
Notre Dame
Ohio
W. Michigan
Wake Forest

Non-FBS Schools:
2x - Rhode Island
Fordham
Hofstra
Texas Southern
Murray State
Maine
Liberty

Out of 39 OOC games, the only teams they played that have even a shot of having a team worth anything are GA Tech, UNC, Notre Dame, and Michigan. Every single other team on that list has a losing record against BCS competition the last 5 and 10 years (UNC & ND actually have losing records as well, though they at least occasionally produce quality teams). Since joining the Big East, they've played just 2 ranked opponents OOC (UNC & GA Tech). Granted, you never know who'll be ranked when you schedule teams years in advance. But, Duke, Murray State, Buffalo, Liberty, Texas Southern, etc pretty much have a 0% chance of being ranked the day their signed to play. They need to at least go out and schedule teams that have a "chance" of being ranked. If they need to play it safe, go schedule NC State, Ole Miss, Texas Tech, Michigan State, GA Tech, Maryland, etc. At the very least, get away from scheduling so many non-FBS teams, and teams from peon conferences like the MAC.

Regardless, UConn has all the tools to be successful and thrive in college football, and I'm excited to see how they fare with WVU out of the mix. If they can rise to the top, it'll certainly help their profile.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Where are you going with this OOC scheduling? You do realize that schedules are set multiple years in advance? you have to know that.

What you probably don't know, is that the UConn wasn't supposed to play a Big EAst game until 2005. We joined the conference a year early. So any scheduling done for future OOC games through 2004, was done as a program that was a 1-A independant, and less than 4 years into 1-A existence.

Secondly - the whole concept - was to be successful. You think it would have been easier to win games on the field and start a recruiting snowball by scheduling to be the cupcake for Michigan in 2005?

We played #1 ranked Miami in 2002. Weren't going to make that mistake again for a while - when a 300lb defensive tackle can outrun your entire offensive squad in 55 yard sprint.

Look at the future schedules, if you want to talk scheduling.