ACC | Page 2 | The Boneyard

ACC

Status
Not open for further replies.
And boom goes Carl's "4 timezones to dominance" theory.

FTI (If I may call you that... haha)... any insights in to ND's TV deal, and whether or not they stand to make or lose more money by (for example) joining the ACC? To me, perfect world, ND and UConn go to ACC and lock up the whole East Coast.
 
Notre Dame is now the lead player in Big East expansion decisions - I believe ND has sat at the head of the expansion committee all along.
.

Notre Dame is driving the ship and NBC is the navigator. Hopefully not the same crew that crashed and abandoned the ship in Italy.
 
And boom goes Carl's "4 timezones to dominance" theory.

FTI (If I may call you that... haha)... any insights in to ND's TV deal, and whether or not they stand to make or lose more money by (for example) joining the ACC? To me, perfect world, ND and UConn go to ACC and lock up the whole East Coast.
Well, there's no question ND would receive a significant increase in TV revenue if they went to the ACC. The issue with the Domers is they value their independence over money. However, as college athletics evolves, and assuming their program doesn't take giant steps forward in the next 2-3 seasons (as in multiple top 15 finishes), their next contract with NBC will lock them into an annual payout that will put them at a competitive disadvantage with respect to the rest of the major players in BCS conferences. They can't expect donors to annually cover a $10M - $15M shortfall compared to the Big Ten, SEC, Pac-12, and Big XII. It's the tortoise & the hare argument. It doesn't matter that ND is the fast rabbit. If they get locked into a TV contract that puts them too far behind, the tortoises of college football will pass them.

Here's the issue with the ACC though...............the ACC's contract w/ ESPN is for all TV rights: Tier 1, 2, 3. If ND joins, they have to cede control of all of their TV rights to the ACC. So, there is no opportunity to have a national ND Network, which they've been looking into. Other than that, the ACC has all of the pieces. They stretch nearly 2,000 miles across the eastern seaboard. They have a number of current and former Domer rivals: Pitt, GA Tech, Miami, Boston College. And, they are one of, if not the most prestigious conference academically in D1. But, the ACC isn't going to go back on their Tier 3 stance. They already turned down Texas for that very reason.

If ND joins a conference in full, the ACC is the leader in the club house...............and by a lot. The dark horse would be the Big XII, simply b/c Swarbrick & Dodds (the ADs) have a very strong relationship, and in terms of national drawing power, they are #1 (Texas) and #2 (Notre Dame). The Big XII is attractive for that reason and their willingness to allow Tier 3 TV rights ownership by their members (the SEC is the only other that allows it as well). But, the Big XII will never be a serious contender to land ND as a full member unless they land 3-4 east coast members.

The Big Ten is a complete non-starter. Domers hate the Big Ten........with a passion. H-A-T-E!!! Fans get caught up on the fact that ND plays 3 Big Ten teams annually. But, they're marriages of convenience. Nearly everyone of their fans would love to see Purdue disappear from their schedule forever. And, despite perceptions to the contrary, just barely over half actually care about playing Michigan State or Michigan annually. At an administration (and booster) level, no one's forgotten that the Big Ten rejected ND's attempt to join multiple times due to their Catholic roots. So, in the eyes of the people that matter, the Big Ten would be a last resort.

I have zero doubt that w/in 10 years, you'll see ND in a conference. Money, competitive balance, scheduling difficulties (w/ everyone going to 9 conference games per year), recruiting, and competing for NCs are all going to push them that direction. And, since you're probably curious, ND & UConn in the ACC would probably bring in $21M - $26M per year per team (based on today's TV payout market). The one thing that hurts the ACC is their teams don't draw well outside their respective regions. The only exceptions are Florida State, Miami, Clemson, and VA Tech. FSU & Miami are national draws, and Clemson & VA Tech are regional draws (meaning, fans of other teams regularly watch their games). Clemson also has a strong following in the eastern part of the SEC.
 
But, the ACC isn't going to go back on their Tier 3 stance. They already turned down Texas for that very reason.

Is this for real? I missed any ACC-Texas talk in the media. Do you have a link?
 
For real. They flirted in the fall
 
Any link from anyone on that? Or is this one of those Ferris Beuller Twitter moments where it is "my cousin's sister's brother's nephew's boyfriend's...."?
 
.-.
Is this for real? I missed any ACC-Texas talk in the media. Do you have a link?
Are you serious? 99% of what goes on in college football happens behind closed doors and never sees the light of day. I could talk for a week straight about all of the things that have never seen the light of day in the press; conversations, arrests, under-the-table deals, etc. How do I know what went on? B/c I worked on the valuation for ESPN. Anytime ESPN or CBS are going to make a contract offer to a conference, league, sport, etc......my team is hired to do the valuation. Intermittently I'll work with NBC, and I've never worked with Fox.

When "Texas to the Pac-10" rumors started swirling in 2010, it's b/c Texas was seriously at the precipice of jumping to the Pac-10. When "Texas to the Pac-12" rumors ramped up again in 2011, it was ESPN trying to drum up pressure to get the ACC to accept Texas and the LHN. But, if you really must see a "link" to believe it..............

On talks with the Atlantic Coast Conference (after the Texas committed to staying in the Big XII): “We had good conversations with [commissioner] John Swofford. We were very interested in that if things imploded. They were very interested in us. But it’s not going to happen.” ~ Deloss Dodds 9/22/11
 
Taking everything at face value, is there any difference in valuation of a ND-UConn package to the ACC as opposed to ND-Rutgers? I would hope so, but at this point we are watching half-ass athletic programs like Pitt chosen ahead of us.
 
How did you miss Texas to the ACC? That was all over the place. The common thought was Texas was using them as a pawn to get the Pac 12 to move, knowing full well the ACC would never allow the LHN, and I believe the Pac 12 didn't have Tier 1-3 rights signed away at that point.
 
You sound like you know what you are talking about, but could you please explain to me how it is exactly that adding a portion of the Florida market and the relatively inconsequential South Carolina market is going to somehow increase revenueby 20 million per team?

I really like your gazelle analogy by the way.

Presently, the Big XII's Fox Sports contract is undervalued. If they add any teams, they can open up that contract as well. Now, take all of that and imagine adding the Florida and South Carolina markets to their contracts. I can tell you, based on both team's valuation, it will put the conference in the $28M - $34.5M per team per year range. So, tell me again how crazy the FSU and Clemson Presidents would be to listen to the Big XII.......

quote]
 
My concern is that we may have missed our window. Five to seven years from now will Temple, Houston,USF or other NBE teams be more attractive pick ups?
 
.-.
You sound like you know what you are talking about, but could you please explain to me how it is exactly that adding a portion of the Florida market and the relatively inconsequential South Carolina market is going to somehow increase revenueby 20 million per team?
You beat me to it, Wisky. I am struggling with this one as well. SC has 4.6 million residents and Clemson has SCe to compete with, so you're likely talking less than half of the collegesports-watching public. Connecticut has 3.6 million residents and UConn is the only game in town. Maybe I am missing something, but who exactly cares about Clemson outside of SC? I can see FSU, Miami and even VT as teams with some national football interest. No doubt they love their football and fill 80k seats, but if they have a measurable impact on a contract, why wouldn't UConn?
 
You beat me to it, Wisky. I am struggling with this one as well. SC has 4.6 million residents and Clemson has SCe to compete with, so you're likely talking less than half of the collegesports-watching public. Connecticut has 3.6 million residents and UConn is the only game in town. Maybe I am missing something, but who exactly cares about Clemson outside of SC? I can see FSU, Miami and even VT as teams with some national football interest. No doubt they love their football and fill 80k seats, but if they have a measurable impact on a contract, why wouldn't UConn?

This doesn't compute to me simply because Clemson and FSU would theoritically add nearly TWICE as much value per team as each Big 12 school is already getting.

Perhaps it was written weirdly. Of course, if this is what he really means, then we would really love to hear why.
 
Beyond that, b/c the BE is so spread out now, they miss out on one of the most important components of any TV contract (w/ regards to college sports)...........regional dominance. In the SEC, Big Ten, and Big XII, fans watch the other teams in their conference. Georgia fans watch Florida games, Michigan fans watch tOSU, Texas fans watch OU games, and on and on. There is a collective interest in the conference b/c of shared commonality AND regional rivalry. One of the reasons the SEC got such a landmark deal years ago is b/c almost every team in the conference (save for Vandy, Kentucky, Ole Miss, and Miss State) turn on TVs in states other than their home state & their opponent's home state. The Big XII and Big Ten also have a lot of that (though not as strongly).
This makes me wonder about the future of the ACC and regional dominance. What would the addition of UConn and Rutgers to the ACC do in regards to control of the TV market in New England/New York/New Jersey? Is there enough value for the B1G to scoop some northeast teams up and make a play for the market?

Thanks for the posts, interesting stuff.
 
Is the ACC off their rocker for controlling Tier 3 rights, or is there benefit to the schools for this? I could see it making sense if you are talking putting an ACC Network in every cable system up and down the east coast.
 
Well, there's no question ND would receive a significant increase in TV revenue if they went to the ACC. The issue with the Domers is they value their independence over money. However, as college athletics evolves, and assuming their program doesn't take giant steps forward in the next 2-3 seasons (as in multiple top 15 finishes), their next contract with NBC will lock them into an annual payout that will put them at a competitive disadvantage with respect to the rest of the major players in BCS conferences. They can't expect donors to annually cover a $10M - $15M shortfall compared to the Big Ten, SEC, Pac-12, and Big XII. It's the tortoise & the hare argument. It doesn't matter that ND is the fast rabbit. If they get locked into a TV contract that puts them too far behind, the tortoises of college football will pass them.

Here's the issue with the ACC though...............the ACC's contract w/ ESPN is for all TV rights: Tier 1, 2, 3. If ND joins, they have to cede control of all of their TV rights to the ACC. So, there is no opportunity to have a national ND Network, which they've been looking into. Other than that, the ACC has all of the pieces. They stretch nearly 2,000 miles across the eastern seaboard. They have a number of current and former Domer rivals: Pitt, GA Tech, Miami, Boston College. And, they are one of, if not the most prestigious conference academically in D1. But, the ACC isn't going to go back on their Tier 3 stance. They already turned down Texas for that very reason.

If ND joins a conference in full, the ACC is the leader in the club house...............and by a lot. The dark horse would be the Big XII, simply b/c Swarbrick & Dodds (the ADs) have a very strong relationship, and in terms of national drawing power, they are #1 (Texas) and #2 (Notre Dame). The Big XII is attractive for that reason and their willingness to allow Tier 3 TV rights ownership by their members (the SEC is the only other that allows it as well). But, the Big XII will never be a serious contender to land ND as a full member unless they land 3-4 east coast members.

The Big Ten is a complete non-starter. Domers hate the Big Ten........with a passion. H-A-T-E!!! Fans get caught up on the fact that ND plays 3 Big Ten teams annually. But, they're marriages of convenience. Nearly everyone of their fans would love to see Purdue disappear from their schedule forever. And, despite perceptions to the contrary, just barely over half actually care about playing Michigan State or Michigan annually. At an administration (and booster) level, no one's forgotten that the Big Ten rejected ND's attempt to join multiple times due to their Catholic roots. So, in the eyes of the people that matter, the Big Ten would be a last resort.

I have zero doubt that w/in 10 years, you'll see ND in a conference. Money, competitive balance, scheduling difficulties (w/ everyone going to 9 conference games per year), recruiting, and competing for NCs are all going to push them that direction. And, since you're probably curious, ND & UConn in the ACC would probably bring in $21M - $26M per year per team (based on today's TV payout market). The one thing that hurts the ACC is their teams don't draw well outside their respective regions. The only exceptions are Florida State, Miami, Clemson, and VA Tech. FSU & Miami are national draws, and Clemson & VA Tech are regional draws (meaning, fans of other teams regularly watch their games). Clemson also has a strong following in the eastern part of the SEC.

I would love to see some kind of references behind what you're saying, as to viewership, media payouts, etc... because it's interesting, and I'd like to see the actual numbers, well because I don't trust you. Nothing personal.

As for the rest of it, I'm not agreeing with most of it. Not at all. The leadership at Notre Dame, has much, much, much, much more in common with leadership of the traditional basketball power schools in the Big East that have provided the backbone for the league to become a springboard for so many other football programs in division 1-A, than they have in common with the leadership in the ACC. It's called the Catholic priesthood. That same priesthood that has mishandled all other football playing 1-A college in the Big East footprint - not named Notre Dame for far too long, and have finally realized that if they continue, their basketball baby dies as an adult.

I believe, that it's finally come to the point, that all those men of the cloth, that value their institutions so highly, have sat down and realized that they really need to make this thing work in the future, otherwise that group of catholic basketball colleges, is going to fall behind.

Notre Dame is going nowhere but remaining independant in football, until there is a national playoff system for a national championship in college football that is a true system based on competition and involves all, and only, all conference 1-A champions. They are intimately involved in the survival of the Big East conference, because the Big East, is there only ticket to remaining independant in football, and they'll reamin independant as long as that playoff system doesn't exist, and when it does - they're much more likely to join the Big East than any other conference.

I can't prove what I will write now, but I believe that the ACC, working with knowledge about how their ESPN broadcasting contracts would be changed, has had the intention of breaking the Big East conference down for many years now, such that Notre Dame reaches a point where they cannot house their basketball and olympics sports in the Big East. I trully believe, that had Syracuse and UConn gone to the ACC in Sep 2011. The league would have split by now, and Notre Dame would be actively searchign for a home for all their sports, and running into walls with anyone that offered them competition but was willing to leave them independant in football. It would have been complete chaos in the landscape beyond anythign that we've seen in the past several months. It didn't happen, and ACC/ESPN people have Boston College leadership to thank for it. BC is really going to feel the love from Tobacco Road and further south now. Anyway....

What's finally become clear to all those other Catholic schools that have been the backbone, is that they need to build a powerful football conference, to maintain the basketball league, rather than do just enough to keep a football conference. You may not believe me, but 15 years, ago, the commissioner of the SEC, was very, very concerned about the Big East conference, because he knew that if the leadership got their priorities in order, the Big East could become by far the most powerful athletic conference in the country. Notre Dame, football and basketball, and ownership of the most powerful media forces in the country. That same commissioner scrambled to be instrumental in the creation of the BCS system to determine a national champion out of the infant bowl coalition contract system with the 6 major conferences at the time.

So - thanks for interest in UConn athletics. We will continue to recruit, compete at the highest levels, and work like hell to win games against whomever we are lining up against. As long as we remain tied to Notre Dame through athletics however convoluted it may be until there is a true national championship playoff system, and as long as we maintain relationship with the athletic conference that has ownership of our broadcasting reach in the NYC to Boston corridor, we are going to be just fine.

What that means, is the Big East. And I think that ability to broadcast football games over 4 time zones is a big deal. We actually won't be the only conference that's able to do it. It's all going to be about following the NFL model of national broadcasts with marquee matchups and regionalizing the other ones so that there is minimal overlap, and marketing the hell out of it.
 
.-.
I think Carl is a bit upset that you poked holes in his ridiculous claim that the NNBE would benefit from being in 4 time zones.
 
Before Neinas took over the Big 12 as interim commissioner in the fall, nd quickly stabilized the television deals - the guy's life long career, has been involved in negotiation of deals that involve college football broadcasting.....the Big XII conference was closer to failure and disbanding than the Big East has ever been. The Big XII conference, becuase of Neinas right now, is solid media wise, but it's not ideal moving forward. They have a much different issue in that conference with Texas, than what we've got with Notre Dame. Texas doesn't need the Big XII, it's just convenient. Notre Dame needs the Big East to remain independant.

BUt anyway - every single big XII athletic department was scrambling for emergency evacuation routes less than a year ago. Several of them approached the Big East for membership.

Neinas came in and stabilized it, for now, and he'll be out the door soon. I don't particularly like how Neinas does business, too much Gordon Gekko corporate raider for my taste, but he's effective. I couldn't believe that the position he squeezed West Virginia into by playing Oliver Luck like a fiddle, but he got the job that needed to get done for the Big XII - done.

Marinatto can learn alot from Chuck Neinas, because the Big East needs to quickly become very skilled in both college football broadcasting and scheduling on top of the experience and skill we've already got managing a large basketball league.

Neinas, and Taglibue both working with the big east at the negotiating tables in a
 
I think Carl is a bit upset that you poked holes in his ridiculous claim that the NNBE would benefit from being in 4 time zones.

I never understood that either. All times eastern.

Big10 Network
12:00pm Iowa at Wisconsin
3:30pm Michigan at Michigan State
7:00pm Wisconsin at Ohio State

NNBE
12:00pm UConn at UCF
3:30pm SMU at Cincy
7:00pm Boise State and Houston
10:00pm Rutgers and San Diego State

So we can have a 10pm Eastern kick off as long as the home team is San Diego State or Boise State.

Is there something I'm missing? Nobody is going to watch a 10pm Saturday start of a football game. Especially when half of those starts would feature SDSU.
 
There were a lot of people here who thought we were too big to be a carrot.
That still sickens me. The fact that while we're still trying to learn how to walk in our our early stage of college football infancy, we would feel brave enough to turn down a long series with Notre-freaking-Dame just because our homes wouldn't be true home games is incredible. I don't mean to turn this into another debate about that issue, but dear god.

I'll never understand it.
 
I thought turning down the ND series was a dumb move, but I didn't realize how dumb it would turn out to be.
 
Carl-

It is obvious that you're a high-level insider, and your expertise far exceeds that which I've gleaned from years of working with ESPN, CBS, ABC, NBC, Versus, etc, and directly/indirectly with Notre Dame, the Big XII, SEC, Big Ten, ACC, BYU, Big East, Conference USA, and the Mountain West. So, I’ll just defer to your wisdom. The BoneYard is truly lucky to have someone of your stature to educate them on realignment, TV contracts, coaching, personnel decisions, etc. Given your credentials, it seems a waste for you to be mired here w/ the commoners. So, I shot the mods an e-mail this morning, recommending you be given your own board on this site; someplace you can hold court daily. I thought, given your self-anointment, “The Throne Room” would be a fitting name. Of course, I love a good double entendre.

Regards,


FromTheInside
 
.-.
Carl-

It is obvious that you're a high-level insider, and your expertise far exceeds that which I've gleaned from years of working with ESPN, CBS, ABC, NBC, Versus, etc, and directly/indirectly with Notre Dame, the Big XII, SEC, Big Ten, ACC, BYU, Big East, Conference USA, and the Mountain West. So, I’ll just defer to your wisdom. The BoneYard is truly lucky to have someone of your stature to educate them on realignment, TV contracts, coaching, personnel decisions, etc. Given your credentials, it seems a waste for you to be mired here w/ the commoners. So, I shot the mods an e-mail this morning, recommending you be given your own board on this site; someplace you can hold court daily. I thought, given your self-anointment, “The Throne Room” would be a fitting name. Of course, I love a good double entendre.

Regards,


FromTheInside

Until this post, I actually believed you really were an insider. Now I am at less than 50/50. Nothing says "faking it" quite like having to use self-professed "insider" status to try and bully another poster. The argument should win on its merits.
 
Until this post, I actually believed you really were an insider. Now I am at less than 50/50. Nothing says "faking it" quite like having to use self-professed "insider" status to try and bully another poster. The argument should win on its merits.

On one hand, you make a good point, but on the other, it was a tremendous smackdown of a guy who is still reveling in the Shane Stafford years like they meant a damn thing.
 
You sound like you know what you are talking about, but could you please explain to me how it is exactly that adding a portion of the Florida market and the relatively inconsequential South Carolina market is going to somehow increase revenueby 20 million per team?
Great question. There are a handful of dynamics in play with regards to an FSU/Clemson move to the Big XII. First, the Big XII’s current ABC/ESPN contract is 5 years old. It was signed 1.5 years before it took effect, and runs for another 4 seasons. So, the valuation is old. Think of it like the housing market. If you buy a house in 2012 for $200k, and do a kitchen & bathroom remodel, then sell it in 2020 for $300k………the remodel didn’t add 50% value to the house. It added “some” value, but most of it was added by appreciation/inflation. That’s how it is with the Big XII. If they added Florida & Clemson, there is a strong bump in the value of their TV contract. But, a large percentage of that value is in appreciation/inflation.

Right now, the Big XII is worth at least $20M…….possibly more. At the time the Big XII signed their last contract, in April 2007, Texas & OU were big dogs in college football, but the rest of the Big XII was horrible. Nebraska was on a downward slide, and had had multiple coaching controversies. Missouri, OK State, and A&M had been mediocre at best the entire previous contract. K-State had fallen off mightily, and Snyder was out the door. Kansas, Colorado, Iowa State, and Baylor were nobodies. Texas Tech had managed a slew of 8-9 win seasons, but hadn’t gotten over the hump. So, the Big XII’s 2007 valuation was based on Texas & OU’s high appeal, and the overall low appeal of all of the other schools, including Nebraska’s declining TV #s. This is why the losses of Nebraska, Colorado, Missouri, and A&M aren’t as bad as people think……..b/c they actually didn’t contribute much to the last TV contract, aside from regional appeal (which was middling at best for CU and MU).

In the Big XII today, you have Texas & OU both seen as major powers, Oklahoma State has surged into a perennial top 25 team, K-State surging back to respectability, Texas Tech has put together a number of very good teams, West Virginia & TCU, who’ve both had very strong TV #s and an equally impressive resume, are joining the conference, etc. The Big XII went from the #3-4 conference in college football in 2007 to the clear cut #2 conference today. So, even with the losses of teams, their additions and the dramatic improvement of their product, will result in a significant appreciation of value. Then on top of that, you add inflation, and you’ve got a conference that should be able to pull in $19M - $25M per team per year with their next contract.

Now, you add Florida State & Clemson to that. It is true that with either school (and that goes for all schools), you do not get “the whole state tuning in”. But, when non-subscription based contracts are written, they’re based on regional & national appeal (sets turned on). WHERE the TV sets are draw from impacts the value of the contract. TV sets turned on outside a team’s DMA or region have a greater impact on a TV contract than sets turned on in a team’s DMA or region. That’s b/c it allows the network to expand the footprint of the broadcast, which creates a diversity of viewers, which increases advertising prices during those telecasts. So, a team that has super strong regional appeal, but has minimal national appeal, would actually be worth less to an ABC or ESPN than would a team that mas minimal regional appeal, but strong national appeal. Examples of these would be Nebraska (former) & Miami (latter).

Both Florida State & Clemson have strong appeal outside their DMAs. Clemson actually pulls very well in Alabama, Georgia, Northern Florida, and parts of North Carolina & Tennessee. Florida State pulls well across all of the ACC states, plus most of the SEC, as well as in Texas and California. So, it’s not just about the size of the state the team is in. This is why teams like Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Florida State, Florida, Alabama, etc are so valuable, b/c when they’re playing, they turn on sets well outside their geographic region.

The other dynamic at play is that if the Big XII brings in 2 more teams, be they FSU & Clemson or others, they'll be able to reap the rewards of a conference championship game. And still further, the addition of 2 more teams opens back up the conference's Fox Sports contract, which is well undervalued, b/c it was signed in haste to raise the conference's payout to prevent further defections. Their FSN contract has a "fair market value" clause in it, which will allow the conference to get a fair market value if the contract is reopened. This clause is not present in the SEC or ACC's contracts, which is why they won't get the bump in payout that they would on an open market.

So, there are a number of factors at play, all which which combined, significantly impact the Big XII's ability to rake in monster dollars if they land the right combination of teams.
 
Every Spackler post on the topic of the Big East's viability should be accompanied with the theme from The Twilight Zone.
 
On one hand, you make a good point, but on the other, it was a tremendous smackdown of a guy who is still reveling in the Shane Stafford years like they meant a damn thing.

A good rule of thumb for "insiders": if a Spackler post gets you worked up then you are probably faking it.
 
.-.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,342
Messages
4,566,075
Members
10,467
Latest member
MrDownunder


Top Bottom