ACC wants UConn if ND comes too

[noeynox]

I think if the Big East can get a decent contract from Comcast, which I think it will if it sticks together, the Presidents would absolutely stick together. The reason everyone has their bags packed is because no one trusts each other. Sorting that out would calm a lot of fears and enable the Big East to rebuild. Stoking those fears in the prayer that a scumbag like Swofford comes to our rescue when every action of the man is to work towards our destruction, is the height of stupidity.

Problem is, those promises should have been made before Pitt/SU left. Instead you had luck ranting about the SEC and prior to that you had RU with their Big 10 pipe dream. You also had the BBall schools attempting to block any football expansion that didn't have Nova in it. Too much discord when things were good, now that things are bad you expect everyone to hold hands ans sing kumbaya? For better or worse, I think you are going to see the Big East return to a pure basketball league in the not too distant future. With what is left in the Big East, no matter who you add, there is no gaurantee that you will have the BCS bid going forward, if that happens what' the point?

 

[2Infinity]

I don't agree. The ACC made it's move because they believed the Big 12 was breaking up. They offered two clubs that were primed to jump. I believe the ACC is interested in UConn too, but weren't offering because they don't want make an offer for one school without offering another, ie: with ND or more likely RU.

Had the ACC known that that the Big 12 was going to stay together I don't think they would have felt compelled to offer Pitt and the Cuse right now. Had the Big 12 collapsed, it would have been a race to snap up the desired schools with an eye to expanding the geographic footprint. Pitt and SU were deemed to be considered as viable options for the B1G, so they went first. The only reason UConn is left standing is because it's only natural partner (besides ND, I guess) is Rutgers which isn't as highly desired.

A strong, vibrant Big East is a pipe dream. The football schools have been behind the eight ball because they have tried to hang with the non football schools. It has been a mistake and will continue to be a mistake going forward. UConn has options. No, we can't write our own ticket but the only reason we aren't already snapped up is because we don't have a strong partner that we are paired with.

Nice summary Funster! A couple points I'd add are that Pitt was supposedly the Big 12's first pick to replace TAM. Sowith the ACC knowing that Pitt could be off the board very quickly, they made them a prioity.

Additionally, the desire of the ACC seems clear as well, to expand into the northeast. Pitt and Syracuse meet that goal, UConn and Rutgers as well (assuming ND rejects the ACC overture, which is highly likely IMO). This would sew up the NY metro area and should help strengthen a declining BC program by bringing regional rivalries back. Though they may have jumped the gun, the ACC did not want to be in a position of weakness, by waiting for someone else to move first. Unfortunately, the BE commissioner did not have such a plan in place.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Problem is, those promises should have been made before Pitt/SU left. Instead you had luck ranting about the SEC and prior to that you had RU with their Big 10 pipe dream. You also had the BBall schools attempting to block any football expansion that didn't have Nova in it. Too much discord when things were good, now that things are bad you expect everyone to hold hands ans sing kumbaya? For better or worse, I think you are going to see the Big East return to a pure basketball league in the not too distant future. With what is left in the Big East, no matter who you add, there is no gaurantee that you will have the BCS bid going forward, if that happens what' the point?

Luck screwed up, I will not dispute that. I think he started it. I disagree on the hoops schools having any impact. The football schools could have split any time they wanted with no penalty, so any criticism of the hoops schools is a false argument. Villanova was rejected for admission to the football league. What else would you want? A double secret rejection? Why would the league add anyone other than TCU, who could have had other choices, a year before negotiations on a TV deal?

Are you arguing that losing Pitt and Syracuse will cost us a BCS bid? Do you realize that our BCS formulas are actually much stronger without Syracuse and with TCU?

Pitt and Syracuse screwed everyone. I don't buy the "blame the victim" arguments.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Nice summary Funster! A couple points I'd add are that Pitt was supposedly the Big 12's first pick to replace TAM. Sowith the ACC knowing that Pitt could be off the board very quickly, they made them a prioity.

Additionally, the desire of the ACC seems clear as well, to expand into the northeast. Pitt and Syracuse meet that goal, UConn and Rutgers as well (assuming ND rejects the ACC overture, which is highly likely IMO). This would sew up the NY metro area and should help strengthen a declining BC program by bringing regional rivalries back. Though they may have jumped the gun, the ACC did not want to be in a position of weakness, by waiting for someone else to move first. Unfortunately, the BE commissioner did not have such a plan in place.

The ACC is never adding UConn and Rutgers. But hey, let's keep the dream alive.

 

[gars44]

Are you arguing that losing Pitt and Syracuse will cost us a BCS bid? Do you realize that our BCS formulas are actually much stronger without Syracuse and with TCU?

This is the absolute correct analysis regarding the BCS formula. The league, with a few additions (that I understand nobody likes) will be stronger from a formula standpoint with newcomers ECU and UCF than it would be with Pitt and Syracuse. So, properly structured, a new league, with the help of some political pressure, keeps the AQ. That should be the goal. This allows football to continue to improve. And if you ever want to advance up the ladder, football has to improve. Without an AQ, football degenerates around here. Maybe not at UCF or TCU, but around here (up North) it will.

 

[noeynox]

That is the key argument. The football schools SHOULD have split. It is sad that a leader did mot emerge among the Football school presidents and rallied them together. There were whispers about a 12 and twenty model. There were also rumors that the bball schools didn't want this. The hybrid league was destined to fail and now it has. Don't know how you can continue to believe that TCU will ever play a game in the big east.

 

[The Funster]

The ACC is never adding UConn and Rutgers. But hey, let's keep the dream alive.

What is your rationale for this?

 

[businesslawyer]

A few points.

1. Yes, Waylon, people do want a double secret rejection of 'Nova, along with the Catholic schools publicy admitting that they are an embarassment to institutions of learning and basketball and apologize. Short of that, many here will see the failure of the league to get them to do that as failure.

2. Waylon -- look, you may be right that we won't get an ACC invite. But you are starting to be the TDH of that point. There is more than enough smoke, and circumstantial evidence, that us going to the ACC is a real possibility that it's personally rational for people to be discussing this. If you're right, you can brag about it later. But stop with the Debbie Downer crap -- it's not adding anything.

3. Having said that, we can not afford to place all our eggs in one basket. We need to be working to rebuild the Big East the best it can be rebuilt, even knowing that it's a question of when it falls apart, not if, to buy us time if an invite isn't coming.

4. This idea to spin the football schools off to pressure ND is absurd. Let me get this straight -- Cincy and USF, which need the Big East to survivie in the best form possible (which is going to include the Catholics for hoops) should give up the basketball alliance so that we can help pressure ND so that we can then abandon our partners? That would be far worse than what SU or Pitt did. But our partners aren't dumb enough to be letting us drive this bus anyway because, no matter what Herbst might say, they know there is a good chance we're history soon. (Of course, if they took Waylon's statements as gospel this would be easier).

 

[gars44]

That is the key argument. The football schools SHOULD have split. It is sad that a leader did mot emerge among the Football school presidents and rallied them together. There were whispers about a 12 and twenty model. There were also rumors that the bball schools didn't want this. The hybrid league was destined to fail and now it has. Don't know how you can continue to believe that TCU will ever play a game in the big east.

Yep, yep, yep, and no. Texas is not in favor of TCU in their conference.

 

[businesslawyer]

Yep, yep, yep, and no. Texas is not in favor of TCU in their conference.

If TCU wasn't invited earlier, I don't see what has changed.

More importantly, unless the Big XII consists of idiots the last thing they want to do is destablize the Big EAst. That leads to the ACC moving to 16, which will lead to the Pac Ten following suit. If I'm the Big XII, I'm leaving the Big East alone. The XII already concluded they don't care about a championship game. So first choice is BYU, and second is probably Houston or Air Force.

 

[gars44]

Don't agree BL. Cincy and USF are looking to jump also. It does not help them long term to stick with the onlies. It helps them short term, certainly. As you say, the outcome is "when" and not "if." Very true. So what do Cincy and USF have to gain by pretending?

 

[Icebear]

Penn State is interested in RU to the ten. The ten has fully vetted RU, decided not to take them last year. They are holding out for ND (duh) and Texas. But RU has its bags packed, sitting by telephone.

Living in PA about 40 minutes from campus I can tell you that last year UConn had more support than Rutgers at PSU including JoePA according to most all of the lcoal scuttlebutt.

 

[gars44]

OK. My point was PSU would like to move a little closer to the conference center. And it is not in favor of the ACC taking Uconn and RU and turning the whole area into ACC country. Which the ACC could do. The problem for FSU is that RU and Uconn are complete dilutions. Watered down beer. Lot's of moving pieces.

 

[noeynox]

What has changed in regards to TCU and the Big 12 is that A&M, is not going to be in it and Missouri might not be in it. Don't discount TCU staying in the MWC as well.

This hybrid league has not worked. The football side has been raided twice in eight years. What more evidence do you need?

 

[businesslawyer]

What has changed in regards to TCU and the Big 12 is that A&M, is not going to be in it and Missouri might not be in it. Don't discount TCU staying in the MWC as well.

This hybrid league has not worked. The football side has been raided twice in eight years. What more evidence do you need?

The fact that the Big East has been raided twice is simply not proof that the hybrid conference did not work. What is your control group? It is just as plausible a conclusion that we've been raided twice because we had the weakest market position and worst TV deal (what a shock that they go together) of all the BCS conferences.

If you care about logic and intellectual honestly, note that the Big East has successfully raided both CUSA and the Market West, neither of which were hybrids (but each of which had less market power).

 

[ZooCougar]

The fact that the Big East has been raided twice is simply not proof that the hybrid conference did not work. What is your control group? It is just as plausible a conclusion that we've been raided twice because we had the weakest market position and worst TV deal (what a shock that they go together) of all the BCS conferences.

If you care about logic and intellectual honestly, note that the Big East has successfully raided both CUSA and the Market West, neither of which were hybrids (but each of which had less market power).

That depends on what you mean by Hybrid. CUSA had basketball only members. Depaul and Marquette as a matter of fact.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

A few points.

1. Yes, Waylon, people do want a double secret rejection of 'Nova, along with the Catholic schools publicy admitting that they are an embarassment to institutions of learning and basketball and apologize. Short of that, many here will see the failure of the league to get them to do that as failure.

2. Waylon -- look, you may be right that we won't get an ACC invite. But you are starting to be the TDH of that point. There is more than enough smoke, and circumstantial evidence, that us going to the ACC is a real possibility that it's personally rational for people to be discussing this. If you're right, you can brag about it later. But stop with the Debbie Downer crap -- it's not adding anything.

3. Having said that, we can not afford to place all our eggs in one basket. We need to be working to rebuild the Big East the best it can be rebuilt, even knowing that it's a question of when it falls apart, not if, to buy us time if an invite isn't coming.

4. This idea to spin the football schools off to pressure ND is absurd. Let me get this straight -- Cincy and USF, which need the Big East to survivie in the best form possible (which is going to include the Catholics for hoops) should give up the basketball alliance so that we can help pressure ND so that we can then abandon our partners? That would be far worse than what SU or Pitt did. But our partners aren't dumb enough to be letting us drive this bus anyway because, no matter what Herbst might say, they know there is a good chance we're history soon. (Of course, if they took Waylon's statements as gospel this would be easier).

2) It is not being Debbie Downer. Debbie Downer is dumping all over the Big East because we lost two mediocre football programs. The Big East is our league, and if there is any prayer of ever getting into the ACC, it is dependent on making the Big East a regional power and UConn a very strong athletic program. That won't happen unless we shore up the league.

3) It doesn't have to be a question of when. This can be a very strong league.

 

[UCHuskies08]

If Louisville, USF, WVU, Cincy, TCU and us stay together, I think we can be fine for a while. But we're taking an ACC invite if it ever comes.

 

[uconNYC]

If Louisville, USF, WVU, Cincy, TCU and us stay together, I think we can be fine for a while. But we're taking an ACC invite if it ever comes.

I believe Big East schools will be asked to sign away its media rights like the Big 12 did for a certain period of time. So UConn (and the other schools) will probably be asked to sign a 3-5 year commitment to the league.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I believe Big East schools will be asked to sign away its media rights like the Big 12 did for a certain period of time. So UConn (and the other schools) will probably be asked to sign a 3-5 year commitment to the league.

I think that is a great strategy. And that restriction would continue no matter what league you were in, so if Louisville bails and joins the Big 12, they would owe the Big East their first 3-4 years of media rights, roughly $60 million.

 

[noeynox]

Spin it how you like. The two sides have differing interests and they were unable to overcome them. The bball side pushed nova, the fb side balked and proposed say UCF, for arguments sake the bball side balked.

Who knows how much of what we read on the net is true, but supposedly the PITT president wanted to push for 12 in football and the bball side wasn't comfortable with that.

Bottom line, when you have a league where members will leave as soon as they are offered by another BCS league. That model doesn't work. For all the talk of the SEC raiding the ACC it hasn't happened and the SEC makes more money than the ACC.

 

[The Funster]

Wouldn't the service academies be for football only? Height restrictions put them at a serious disadvantage for hoops. Can't see any of them in a big conference for that reason.

 

[upstater]

The idea that a school would wrap a ball and chain around it instead of a life preserver is laughable. When the inevitable day comes that conferences like the BE and Big12 are sunk and lose their BCS bids due to defections, the last thing a school like UConn needs is Providence demanding both a huge chunk of money and/or their TV rights. Signing over your children makes you less attractive for potential conferences.

 

[Icebear]

The idea that a school would wrap a ball and chain around it instead of a life preserver is laughable. When the inevitable day comes that conferences like the BE and Big12 are sunk and lose their BCS bids due to defections, the last thing a school like UConn needs is Providence demanding both a huge chunk of money and/or their TV rights. Signing over your children makes you less attractive for potential conferences.

Yes, that would be about the most inane move possible.

 

[noeynox]

Agree. You would be better off letting yourself be kicked out the league than slitting your own wrist signing that.

That agreement may work in the Big 12, because as long as Texas and Oklahoma are in that conference they ain't losing their BCS bid. Who exactly is the big east's Texas or Oklahoma that is going to ensure the bid?

 

[upstater]

The entire discussion here needs to reset. Start with this fundamental question: do you believe that the big schools are intent on creating 4 superconferences in order to maximize revenue?

If you think the concept of the superconference is real and not a fantasy, then you simply do not adhere gorilla glue to yourselves and entities which stand a teeny chance of ever being admitted into a superconference. The logic is simple. If you want to use Elmer's sparkling glue stick, that's fine. But gorilla glue? Get out.

The superconference idea is also why UConn stands to be invited into the ACC, and it likewise explains why the ACC--as the weakest of the 4 potential superconferences--jumped first. And will likely jump again to 16 and soon. They want the best candidates for inclusion. If they come to feel that Notre Dame will really prefer say the Big10, they'll move on quickly. Why? Because eventually the Big12 will go to 16 too.

I don't know what the Pac10 is thinking but it seems to me that there are no other 4 schools in there region but for the ones they already talked to.

The horse has left the barn, superconferences are coming. If they weren't, we would not be seeing the SEC inviting Missouri, the ACC taking Pitt and Cuse. Now it's just a question of musical chairs.

 

[ctchamps]

The entire discussion here needs to reset. Start with this fundamental question: do you believe that the big schools are intent on creating 4 superconferences in order to maximize revenue?

If you think the concept of the superconference is real and not a fantasy, then you simply do not adhere gorilla glue to yourselves and entities which stand a teeny chance of ever being admitted into a superconference. The logic is simple. If you want to use Elmer's sparkling glue stick, that's fine. But gorilla glue? Get out.

The superconference idea is also why UConn stands to be invited into the ACC, and it likewise explains why the ACC--as the weakest of the 4 potential superconferences--jumped first. And will likely jump again to 16 and soon. They want the best candidates for inclusion. If they come to feel that Notre Dame will really prefer say the Big10, they'll move on quickly. Why? Because eventually the Big12 will go to 16 too.

I don't know what the Pac10 is thinking but it seems to me that there are no other 4 schools in there region but for the ones they already talked to.

The horse has left the barn, superconferences are coming. If they weren't, we would not be seeing the SEC inviting Missouri, the ACC taking Pitt and Cuse. Now it's just a question of musical chairs.

According to your scenario there will be five super conferences of 16: the ACC, B12, PAC, SEC and the B!G.

I'd love the reset to go back to someone explaining to me why this four of sixteen model is etched in stone and what is the rational exists that for this model by all those advocating this model.

 

[EricSD]

I'm not knocking you here, but I just don't understand this one. When the Big East dies, and the Catholic leagues reform into a smaller conference, what's to stop ND from parking its teams with the Catholics and staying independent in football?

that was my thought and is what i think ND will do. what incentive do they have to leave the ranks of the independents? they make more money that way. why join a league and make less?

 

[gars44]

If Louisville, USF, WVU, Cincy, TCU and us stay together, I think we can be fine for a while. But we're taking an ACC invite if it ever comes.

Exactly the problem with this league. So is everybody else.

 

[ctchamps]

that was my thought and is what i think ND will do. what incentive do they have to leave the ranks of the independents? they make more money that way. why join a league and make less?

I believe that ND has a tie into BE's BCS bid which they could lose if there are no BE football teams. Someone could clarify this. If they lose this they still have the NBC contract (not sure if details were ever disclosed) and will have to decide if the loss of BCS affiliation can hurt them in the future.