ACC 2024-25 Season | Page 10 | The Boneyard

ACC 2024-25 Season

WBBTakeover

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AP poll is out and ND moved above Uconn at #3. Top five is:
1 UCLA
2. South Carolina
3. Notre Dame
4. UConn
5. LSU

To update your list:
3. Notre Dame
9. DUKE
17. Georgia Tech
19. UNC
21. NC State
Louisville and Florida State are unranked.

Not looking good for the ACC as a whole.
As they (Louisville and FSU) should be. They're not good.

The conference is shaping up to be what many would've expected--third place at best behind the big dawgs (B1G and SEC).
 
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How long has it been? I'm assuming since Anigwe finished up her career there.
The California women's basketball team is nationally ranked for the first time under head coach Charmin Smith, coming in at No. 24 in the Associated Press Top 25 Women's College Basketball Poll released Monday. This is the first time the Golden Bears have been in the AP Top 25 poll since being ranked No. 24 on Jan. 7, 2019. - Cal Enters AP Top 25 Poll - California Golden Bears Athletics
 

triaddukefan

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As they (Louisville and FSU) should be. They're not good.

The conference is shaping up to be what many would've expected--third place at best behind the big dawgs (B1G and SEC).

The hell with the Big Dawgs...time for the ACC to take some of these Big Dawgs to the veterinarians.... If you catch my drift :eek:
 
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Eh - I don’t think the conferences are drastically different. I agree that at this point the ACC is running in 3rd. But when I look at the SEC SC and LSU are a cut above - after that … idk. Some solid squads, no one that strikes fear in me. Similar in the Big 10 UCLA and USC stand out and I know there are good teams there - maybe Maryland is on that level? Idk. Some of those squads that are ranked in the BIG 10 haven’t exactly challenged themselves in the out of conference.

The ACC has ND and Duke sort of separating themselves and then a similar cluster of solid teams before it falls off a cliff.

SOS is something to consider too. If Louisville had played Ohio state, maryland or Michigan states schedule they’d probably be ranked 15th and have 1 or 2 losses. Not that Louisville is great, but they’ve challenged themselves and been exposed more than some of these teams I’m looking at in the SEC and big 10.
 

WBBTakeover

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The hell with the Big Dawgs...time for the ACC to take some of these Big Dawgs to the veterinarians.... If you catch my drift :eek:
When that happens, please let me know. Because I saw the SEC/ACC Challenge. One conference had double-digit wins--and it wasn't the ACC.
 

WBBTakeover

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Eh - I don’t think the conferences are drastically different. I agree that at this point the ACC is running in 3rd. But when I look at the SEC SC and LSU are a cut above - after that … idk. Some solid squads, no one that strikes fear in me. Similar in the Big 10 UCLA and USC stand out and I know there are good teams there - maybe Maryland is on that level? Idk. Some of those squads that are ranked in the BIG 10 haven’t exactly challenged themselves in the out of conference.

The ACC has ND and Duke sort of separating themselves and then a similar cluster of solid teams before it falls off a cliff.

SOS is something to consider too. If Louisville had played Ohio state, maryland or Michigan states schedule they’d probably be ranked 15th and have 1 or 2 losses. Not that Louisville is great, but they’ve challenged themselves and been exposed more than some of these teams I’m looking at in the SEC and big 10.
Yeah, no. Not buying that one at all.
 

Dillon77

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Bi-Weekly ACC Update, by Marissa Sisk of Her Hoops Stats
A lot of material in here, taking in teams (ND and Louisville, Cal and Georgia Tech) and player performances.

 
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Good piece in SF Chronicle today as to why this year's Cal team is so improved.

Why is Cal women’s basketball so much better this season? These stats are revealing​

This year has been different, though, in look and feel of the games and statistically. But why is Cal so much better this season? Head coach Charmin Smith has done work in the transfer portal the past two seasons and recruited one of the top classes in the country to create an offensive juggernaut that can get stops.
Mostly, according to the analytics, this version of Cal (11-1, No. 24 in the country) is extremely productive.
Here's a gift link to the full piece: Why is Cal women’s basketball so much better this season? full article
 

WBBTakeover

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Just saw the UVA/ND score. YIKES!!!! This is Year 3 for Mox, BTW--and yet we continue to see a dumpster fire. There is no positive momentum for this program. It's a complete and total mess. Nobody in Hoo-land talks about it because (1) football and men's basketball programs are also dumpster fires and (2) the athletic department "insiders" convinced us that this hire was definitely the post-Debbie Ryan hire that would pan out (even though the previous two failed--so there was precedent to suggest that yet another hire that had no ties to the university would ultimately fail).

If Alexis Ohanian (UVA alum) wants to use his money wisely, he'll buy out Mox's contract and start over. Find an alum and go from there.
 
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Just saw the UVA/ND score. YIKES!!!! This is Year 3 for Mox, BTW--and yet we continue to see a dumpster fire. There is no positive momentum for this program. It's a complete and total mess. Nobody in Hoo-land talks about it because (1) football and men's basketball programs are also dumpster fires and (2) the athletic department "insiders" convinced us that this hire was definitely the post-Debbie Ryan hire that would pan out (even though the previous two failed--so there was precedent to suggest that yet another hire that had no ties to the university would ultimately fail).

If Alexis Ohanian (UVA alum) wants to use his money wisely, he'll buy out Mox's contract and start over. Find an alum and go from there.
As a UVA alum I sure hope they do not take this approach. I would be extremely disappointed in my alma mater. Nothing infuriates me more than when a coach is denied resources for years, gets fired, and then their successor is given the keys to the kingdom and everyone thinks they are just a fabulous coach. Let's see what Coach Mox can do with adequate resources If she doesn't produce after that, then look for a new coach. NIL and conference tv deals run recruiting now. UVA's cupboards were almost bare at every level until Ohanian's generous commitment. Only fair to let Mox try with a more even playing field.
 
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Just saw the UVA/ND score. YIKES!!!! This is Year 3 for Mox, BTW--and yet we continue to see a dumpster fire. There is no positive momentum for this program. It's a complete and total mess. Nobody in Hoo-land talks about it because (1) football and men's basketball programs are also dumpster fires and (2) the athletic department "insiders" convinced us that this hire was definitely the post-Debbie Ryan hire that would pan out (even though the previous two failed--so there was precedent to suggest that yet another hire that had no ties to the university would ultimately fail).

If Alexis Ohanian (UVA alum) wants to use his money wisely, he'll buy out Mox's contract and start over. Find an alum and go from there.
I was at the game and would agree that even though there was a talent disparity, ND ran efficient set plays to beat the Hoos zone, while the Hoos didn't play much of a team oriented offense at all. Consequently, ND had 32 assists to VA's 8.
 
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Just saw the UVA/ND score. YIKES!!!! This is Year 3 for Mox, BTW--and yet we continue to see a dumpster fire. There is no positive momentum for this program. It's a complete and total mess. Nobody in Hoo-land talks about it because (1) football and men's basketball programs are also dumpster fires and (2) the athletic department "insiders" convinced us that this hire was definitely the post-Debbie Ryan hire that would pan out (even though the previous two failed--so there was precedent to suggest that yet another hire that had no ties to the university would ultimately fail).

If Alexis Ohanian (UVA alum) wants to use his money wisely, he'll buy out Mox's contract and start over. Find an alum and go from there.
Well UVA was playing at #3 Notre Dame to expect a strong performance might be a stretch. Going up against the #1 or 2 leading scorer and steals leader in Hidalgo, then Miles is top 5 in assists and just got her third triple double this year, a top ten rebounder in King, then top it of with the #2 in blocks, Koval, it's not a recipe for a good day.

Check them out again with different competition.
 

WBBTakeover

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Well UVA was playing at #3 Notre Dame to expect a strong performance might be a stretch. Going up against the #1 or 2 leading scorer and steals leader in Hidalgo, then Miles is top 5 in assists and just got her third triple double this year, a top ten rebounder in King, then top it of with the #2 in blocks, Koval, it's not a recipe for a good day.

Check them out again with different competition.
They beat Coppin State by 8 points (same Coppin State team that just lost to Maine by 11). How's that?

For comparison's sake, Coppin State lost to UNC by 26 and to Virginia Tech by 35.

Everyone knows that Notre Dame is really, really good. I've said that many times. However, no one wants to accept that UVA is really, really bad.
 

WBBTakeover

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As a UVA alum I sure hope they do not take this approach. I would be extremely disappointed in my alma mater. Nothing infuriates me more than when a coach is denied resources for years, gets fired, and then their successor is given the keys to the kingdom and everyone thinks they are just a fabulous coach. Let's see what Coach Mox can do with adequate resources If she doesn't produce after that, then look for a new coach. NIL and conference tv deals run recruiting now. UVA's cupboards were almost bare at every level until Ohanian's generous commitment. Only fair to let Mox try with a more even playing field.
Why, though? What's the sense in throwing money at a problem that will still be a problem? Mox's coaching is a problem (teams oftentimes look unprepared, undisciplined, and unmotivated). Will $776,000 a year for NIL (which will, presumably, be spread out among the entire team) change that? I don't think so. UVA may be able to overpay for third-rate talent for that price tag, but that may get the program back to the NCAA Tournament. It won't guarantee anything beyond that unless there is a change in leadership.

We just saw what happened when Miami football tried to buy its way into the College Football Playoffs after a disappointing season. Losses to Georgia Tech and Syracuse (both inferior programs to Miami) ultimately kept them out of the playoffs. Why did that happen? Coaching. Mario Cristobal is not a good coach. So even if you throw money at a problem (on-the-field production), that doesn't truly address the root cause (coaching) of said problem.

I've heard for years (from UVA alums) that UVA has so much to offer in terms of academic reputation and other resources (facilities, support from administration, etc.). I've heard UVA fans claim that their team should be a Top 25 program minimum every year. Recruits should be lining up for the opportunity to attend. But now it's, "let's give Mox time and resources"--even though that runs counter to everything that UVA fans have been claiming since Debbie was forced out 15 years ago. It sounds to me like fans have bought into what Mox is selling and desperately want things to work out for her despite what's in the tea leaves.
 

WBBTakeover

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Also, if UVA has failed with two, going on three, coaches that have zero ties to the program, it's not wise to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.
 

WBBTakeover

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Just saw the Pitt/GT score. YIKES!!!! Pitt is just awful.
 
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Why, though? What's the sense in throwing money at a problem that will still be a problem? Mox's coaching is a problem (teams oftentimes look unprepared, undisciplined, and unmotivated). Will $776,000 a year for NIL (which will, presumably, be spread out among the entire team) change that? I don't think so. UVA may be able to overpay for third-rate talent for that price tag, but that may get the program back to the NCAA Tournament. It won't guarantee anything beyond that unless there is a change in leadership.

We just saw what happened when Miami football tried to buy its way into the College Football Playoffs after a disappointing season. Losses to Georgia Tech and Syracuse (both inferior programs to Miami) ultimately kept them out of the playoffs. Why did that happen? Coaching. Mario Cristobal is not a good coach. So even if you throw money at a problem (on-the-field production), that doesn't truly address the root cause (coaching) of said problem.

I've heard for years (from UVA alums) that UVA has so much to offer in terms of academic reputation and other resources (facilities, support from administration, etc.). I've heard UVA fans claim that their team should be a Top 25 program minimum every year. Recruits should be lining up for the opportunity to attend. But now it's, "let's give Mox time and resources"--even though that runs counter to everything that UVA fans have been claiming since Debbie was forced out 15 years ago. It sounds to me like fans have bought into what Mox is selling and desperately want things to work out for her despite what's in the tea leaves.
When I see team after team failing at a school, I think change needs to start with administration. How do you know the problem is Mox? Maybe she has only been able to get undisciplined recruits bc the money and reputation for sports just aren't there? Or school policies/traditions prevent her from running things the way they need to be?.Sometimes money does fix things. If Duke makes it to the final four in the next 4 yrs, it will very much be money that puts them over the hump. Money allows you to get the pieces you need vs just finding good parts to work with.

I learned a long time ago when I got views behind the curtain of a program that unless one has knowledge about the ins and outs of a program, it is completely foolish to think that you know what the true problems may be. It is really unbelievable what goes down that the public has no idea about. So with that in mind, I think giving coach one more year is very much the right move.

If you know multiple UVA alums, then you know the tendencies to bathe in delusions of grandeur that exist in that crowd. Many love the school to a fault. Half of the ACC has an equal to greater academic rep than UVA, so I don't see that as a huge draw for a recruit.

Why would money be spread evenly? Maybe that money will be, but that leaves chance to give other money to better players.
 

WBBTakeover

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When I see team after team failing at a school, I think change needs to start with administration. How do you know the problem is Mox? Maybe she has only been able to get undisciplined recruits bc the money and reputation for sports just aren't there? Or school policies/traditions prevent her from running things the way they need to be?.Sometimes money does fix things.
Teams that lack resources can still show signs of competence. I remember watching a UVA vs. Louisville game 5-6 years ago and came away thinking that there's no way that Tina Thompson should be a head coach anywhere, let alone the head coach for a Power 4/5 flagship university. The final score wasn't terrible, but you could tell by watching the actions of the players that they weren't well coached. They made mistakes that high school players typically don't make.

I've watched UVA play numerous times during the Mox era and, with the exception of last season's FSU game, I've not been impressed. Her teams are notorious for sloppy, low basketball IQ play. They rely heavily on a big (Taylor the previous two years and Lattimore this season) and will go to great lengths to play through her--even to their detriment. They've also tried the up-tempo thing--to no avail (too sloppy and unskilled for that). Their passes sail all over the court and have one thinking they're watching water polo instead. It's painful watching them play--the product is really bad.

The ACC is a league where success is heavily predicated on guard/wing play. Having multiple competent guards is essential, not a luxury. We see that with ND this year, NC State (especially last year), Louisville in the past, Virginia Tech during the Kitley years, and Duke (especially this year). As for UVA, they have one good guard and one decent guard--that's it. But during Mox's time at UVA, they've had guards who either were decent to good before they stepped foot on Grounds or were decent to good once they departed. That's why it's hard for me to blame her shortcomings on school policies (Notre Dame and Duke are able to recruit impact guards/wings despite having academic reputations that exceed UVA's) or traditions (traditionally, UVA had good to great guard play during the Debbie Ryan years). Mox isn't getting what she needs to be successful because she doesn't know what she's doing--both on the court and off of it. I don't think money can fix that, as all you're going to get is more skilled players who are still poorly coached and will come up short (again, see Mario Cristobal of Miami football 2024).
 
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I was at the game and would agree that even though there was a talent disparity, ND ran efficient set plays to beat the Hoos zone, while the Hoos didn't play much of a team oriented offense at all. Consequently, ND had 32 assists to VA's 8.
I was surprised by VA's gameplan with Lattimore. The commentators kept raving about her 6'4 frame and 6'9 wingspan. But she sat at the top of zone all night. Meanwhile they gave up so many 3's and got destroyed on the boards.
 

WBBTakeover

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I learned a long time ago when I got views behind the curtain of a program that unless one has knowledge about the ins and outs of a program, it is completely foolish to think that you know what the true problems may be. It is really unbelievable what goes down that the public has no idea about. So with that in mind, I think giving coach one more year is very much the right move.
As someone who's had connections within a prominent athletic department before, I've been privy to how things operate behind the scenes. UVA's athletic department doesn't appear to be running smoothly, as the AD has botched hires in the more prominent sports (football, for example). Tony Bennett's resignation was not really on her, so I won't give her grief about it. However, she badly botched one women's basketball hire and looks to have hired another dud on the level of Joanne Boyle.

That said, I do believe that Mox will get at least another year to bring the program back to competence (NCAA tournament) and an additional year if she can show the donors (especially Alexis) that the team can compete for championships against ND and Duke (and whomever else joins that tier in the years to come). If the team isn't either in the ACC Tournament finals or has a Top 4 ACC finish by Year 5, she should be gone.

If you know multiple UVA alums, then you know the tendencies to bathe in delusions of grandeur that exist in that crowd. Many love the school to a fault. Half of the ACC has an equal to greater academic rep than UVA, so I don't see that as a huge draw for a recruit.
Yes, I'm well aware of the pretentious nature of many (but not all) UVA alums. 2019 was a painful time for me (as someone who does not root for their men's basketball team). I'm not here to denigrate UVA's academic reputation because, outside of Duke, Stanford, ND, and Cal, it either holds its own against or exceeds that of the other ACC institutions. But I am well aware that the UVA diehards see their school as Diet Harvard. And even though it's not, the academic reputation is still lofty enough to be a draw for recruits.

Why would money be spread evenly? Maybe that money will be, but that leaves chance to give other money to better players.
Because Alexis insinuated that the money would be "transformative" and he announced it in front of all the young women. Hard for that to be the case if one player gets $500K while the others get $10K. Also, he's Serena's husband--so I'd like to continue to think highly of him.
 

WBBTakeover

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I was surprised by VA's gameplan with Lattimore. The commentators kept raving about her 6'4 frame and 6'9 wingspan. But she sat at the top of zone all night. Meanwhile they gave up so many 3's and got destroyed on the boards.
Coaching (or lack thereof).
 
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Teams that lack resources can still show signs of competence. I remember watching a UVA vs. Louisville game 5-6 years ago and came away thinking that there's no way that Tina Thompson should be a head coach anywhere, let alone the head coach for a Power 4/5 flagship university. The final score wasn't terrible, but you could tell by watching the actions of the players that they weren't well coached. They made mistakes that high school players typically don't make.

I've watched UVA play numerous times during the Mox era and, with the exception of last season's FSU game, I've not been impressed. Her teams are notorious for sloppy, low basketball IQ play. They rely heavily on a big (Taylor the previous two years and Lattimore this season) and will go to great lengths to play through her--even to their detriment. They've also tried the up-tempo thing--to no avail (too sloppy and unskilled for that). Their passes sail all over the court and have one thinking they're watching water polo instead. It's painful watching them play--the product is really bad.

The ACC is a league where success is heavily predicated on guard/wing play. Having multiple competent guards is essential, not a luxury. We see that with ND this year, NC State (especially last year), Louisville in the past, Virginia Tech during the Kitley years, and Duke (especially this year). As for UVA, they have one good guard and one decent guard--that's it. But during Mox's time at UVA, they've had guards who either were decent to good before they stepped foot on Grounds or were decent to good once they departed. That's why it's hard for me to blame her shortcomings on school policies (Notre Dame and Duke are able to recruit impact guards/wings despite having academic reputations that exceed UVA's) or traditions (traditionally, UVA had good to great guard play during the Debbie Ryan years). Mox isn't getting what she needs to be successful because she doesn't know what she's doing--both on the court and off of it. I don't think money can fix that, as all you're going to get is more skilled players who are still poorly coached and will come up short (again, see Mario Cristobal of Miami football 2024).
I'm not talking about academic policies. UVA will take almost anyone academically. I can tell by the current roster and it was like that when I went there.
Every school handles fundraising differently; coaches are given rules to follow, programs hoard their donors, etc. Different schools give coaches longer or shorter leashes on a variety of topics from dorm situations to internship perks, etc. As recent as two years ago Virginia's transfer rules were more strict than Duke's. They might still be, but I haven't talked to anyone about it lately. We can agree to disagree. ND has plenty of NIL now and a history of success. Mox is not Lawson and UVA is not Duke by reputation. I think it is unreasonable to expect her to be like either of those teams at this point.
 

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If Duke makes it to the final four in the next 4 yrs, it will very much be money that puts them over the hump.
I agree with that 100%, as I'm not someone who believes that Coach Kara is the sun, the moon, and the stars (she's got her faults, which can rear their ugly heads at the most inopportune times). That said, she's shown herself to be a pretty good coach without those immense financial gifts (something that Mox hasn't done). She's not Marissa Young good, but she's good. She wasn't my first (or second, or third) choice, but she's done reasonably well so far--all things considered (navigating COVID, having to consider Duke's academic reputation during recruiting battles, washing away the stench of the previous coach, etc.). If the NIL money that Duke is set to receive over the next year takes the program back to true national prominence, then it doesn't matter to me that Kara isn't Dawn, Kim, or Geno.
 

WBBTakeover

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I'm not talking about academic policies. UVA will take almost anyone academically. I can tell by the current roster and it was like that when I went there.
Every school handles fundraising differently; coaches are given rules to follow, programs hoard their donors, etc. Different schools give coaches longer or shorter leashes on a variety of topics from dorm situations to internship perks, etc. As recent as two years ago Virginia's transfer rules were more strict than Duke's. They might still be, but I haven't talked to anyone about it lately. We can agree to disagree. ND has plenty of NIL now and a history of success. Mox is not Lawson and UVA is not Duke by reputation. I think it is unreasonable to expect her to be like either of those teams at this point.
I agree with the bolded part, but it's not unreasonable to expect the team to look competent now. They hardly ever do, which is a major concern for a coach in her third season of ACC basketball. Neither she nor her assistants knew the ACC landscape two seasons ago, so them getting blasted during conference play didn't surprise anyone. But for them to be 0-2 at this point with a double-digit home loss to an average BC team and a 41-point loss to ND (not even their worst loss of the season) is concerning. It suggests that there's no progression. They should be in the, "we're not going to beat the teams at the top, but we'll make things difficult for them" phase. Instead, they aren't even beating the teams they should beat while getting annihilated by those teams at the top.

If the plan works and Alexis' gift makes a difference in recruiting, then competition with Duke and ND for conference titles will be expected by Mox's fifth year. That's not unreasonable IF Mox's coaching is up to ACC standard (I don't think it is).
 

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