5 Takeaways from the McD All-Star Game

[doggydaddy]

Starting your best 5 players is rarely a good idea unless roster makeup dictates it. Even on the NBA level where there are millions of dollars at stake and little to no loyalty the winning teams and best coaches purposefully do not start their 5 best players.

Kaleena coming off the bench this year was a smart basketball decision irregardless of what class she was in versus the starters. So smart she may even do it again next season. DD obviously disagrees with me there, but Kaleena definitely should have come off the bench this season for purely basketball reasons.

I don't think she will based on how Geno operates. That's all.

 

[doggydaddy]

You apparently think Geno equates seniority with merit. And if he really does, he's wrong. I certainly don't know more about Xs and Os of basketball than Geno, or recruiting, or being the face of a program, or a host of other issues. But I also don't believe he just says, "She started last year, so she's starting this year."

If Caroline has done nothing to lose her starting position, it's a bad practice to move her to the bench for a freshman.

Stewart will get plenty of minutes when it counts just like Lewis did.

 

[Scotter]

So looking like crap against Stanford and ND until KML came in was smart? Starting someone who couldn't get open against Baylor's perimeter defense was smart? Got it.

On an related note, those are the other three teams in the Final Four this weekend.

Having no alternative that can make an immediate impact if the teams starts slow is smart? Having no scoring coming off the bench is smart? Letting teams know exactly who your freshman is going to play with to start the game so that they can set their defense matchups is smart? And never mind the health reasons that were stated for Doty to start to help her physically be more effective.

The games are also 40 minutes long. They won the Stanford game right? They had leads on the road late in the game against Baylor and Notre Dame. Doesn't seem like the starting lineup is such a difficult thing to overcome? I watch every game the Chicago Bulls play. Routinely their coach has to call a timeout less than 4 minutes into a game because of a slow start, and yet they somehow have managed to win more games than any other team in the NBA. The impact of how games start consistently gets over estimated because fans can't put it in perspective..

 

[doggydaddy]

So looking like crap against Stanford and ND until KML came in was smart? Starting someone who couldn't get open against Baylor's perimeter defense was smart? Got it.

On an related note, those are the other three teams in the Final Four this weekend.

I'd like to lock you in a closed room with Caroline and you can tell her your opinion. You are blaming her for those losses....wow.

 

[Bestiarius]

Who “should” starts is more than a matter of loyalty, seniority, talent, effort in practice, ego, reward, expectation, or any other single criteria. It’s a combination of all, or, perhaps none of these points. There have been times when a given player just had to be a starter, Geno and the team knew it. We’re dealing with personalities here. I think Geno is a master psychologist. He knows instinctively what needs to be done and the individuals accept it.

How do I know this? During those on court huddles after a foul, etc., just look at the faces, regardless of who is on the court. Pure joy, togetherness. Not a hint of negativity ill will selfishness or ego anywhere. Geno knows who needs to start.

 

[speedoo]

The two most over rated things in WCBB, not necessarily in order are: height for individual players, and starting lineups for teams that have very good players 1-7 or 8.

 

[speedoo]

Who “should” starts is more than a matter of loyalty, seniority, talent, effort in practice, ego, reward, expectation, or any other single criteria. It’s a combination of all, or, perhaps none of these points. There have been times when a given player just had to be a starter, Geno and the team knew it. We’re dealing with personalities here. I think Geno is a master psychologist. He knows instinctively what needs to be done and the individuals accept it.

How do I know this? During those on court huddles after a foul, etc., just look at the faces, regardless of who is on the court. Pure joy, togetherness. Not a hint of negativity ill will selfishness or ego anywhere. Geno knows who needs to start.

Great post. Examples of frosh who had to start were Sue Bird and Swin Cash. Can't think of any frosh since then who had to start... maybe Ann Strother? And it's no reflection on the kids obviously since neither DT or Maya had to start. In any case, it was not true of Kaleena and I don't think it will be true of any of the 2012 frosh, but that remains to be seen.

 

[UCONNfan1]

FWIW, i think Caroline starts. i'm not so sure it's about loyalty. altho i do agree to an extent it's about "you are a starter till you lose your position". but think about how easy it is to lose your starting position - Stef almost lost hers midway thru the year as Kiah came on strong and Stef struggled. IIRC, Geno said something like "i considered just starting Kiah over Stef, but was ocncerned about what it would to do Stef's confidence".

i think it has more to do with 2 things (why CD will start). people have waxed eloquently about all the intangibles CD brings so i won't belabor that again. but the other thing is that she's coming off her 3rd ACL tear. Even Geno said it makes little sense to have her warm up, get the knee ready to go, then sit her on the bench for 10-15 minutes to start a game and let the knee get cold.

Geno doesn't like starting a freshman unless he has to. even our greatest he didn't start unless injuries forced them into the role, or like last year, there was simply no one else.

Caroline, Bria, Kelly, KML and Stef start. i couldn't begin to tell ya who is first off the bench since it depends if he wants to ring in a guard, wing/forward, or center. but with a bench as talented as ours, it will be no letup when Moriah, Brianna, Morgan, Breanna or Kiah come in.

i'd be very surprised to see anyone average over 25 minutes per game. i'd also not be surprised to see an active full court press for 30+ minutes every game (not blowouts of course).

 

[doggydaddy]

Who “should” starts is more than a matter of loyalty, seniority, talent, effort in practice, ego, reward, expectation, or any other single criteria. It’s a combination of all, or, perhaps none of these points. There have been times when a given player just had to be a starter, Geno and the team knew it. We’re dealing with personalities here. I think Geno is a master psychologist. He knows instinctively what needs to be done and the individuals accept it.

How do I know this? During those on court huddles after a foul, etc., just look at the faces, regardless of who is on the court. Pure joy, togetherness. Not a hint of negativity ill will selfishness or ego anywhere. Geno knows who needs to start.

But he is ridiculous and stubborn for starting Doty over Lewis, don't you know?

 

[Dairyair]

The two most over rated things in WCBB, not necessarily in order are: height for individual players, and starting lineups for teams that have very good players 1-7 or 8.

AND these two things have to be among the most discussed topics on this board! Not sure why people get so whoopy over whether a girl is 6-2 or 6-3. As far as starting goes, people always want to see an incoming freshman as the greatest EVER, and she absolutely MUST start! Why? If you've paid attention, Geno doesn't start freshman unless he's forced to, which certainly won't be the case next year. And how many game threads, when things aren't going our way, has someone posted "KML time" or something to that effect? Next year it will be "here comes Breanna (or whomever)...that's the way it is, and that's the way it will be, at least as long as Geno is the head coach. I know Geno and CD are very high on Breanna, but I still bet she doesn't start.
Fire away, Alex!

 

[ju6381]

AND these two things have to be among the most discussed topics on this board! Not sure why people get so whoopy over whether a girl is 6-2 or 6-3. As far as starting goes, people always want to see an incoming freshman as the greatest EVER, and she absolutely MUST start! Why? If you've paid attention, Geno doesn't start freshman unless he's forced to, which certainly won't be the case next year. And how many game threads, when things aren't going our way, has someone posted "KML time" or something to that effect? Next year it will be "here comes Breanna (or whomever)...that's the way it is, and that's the way it will be, at least as long as Geno is the head coach. I know Geno and CD are very high on Breanna, but I still bet she doesn't start.
Fire away, Alex!

As was said during all the McDonalds festivities, Geno has also been keen to not put too much pressure on her right away. Starting would certainly be added pressure for a kid who does not need to be put in the starting 5, not saying she is not that good though!!

 

[Sonny44]

Why? You've held this position for a while, but as they said in the McD's game last night, most of the 2013 recruits have not committed.

You have a good memory doggy. It's opinion, not factual, call it intuition.
She's been all around, seen all the good choices, she knows everything UCONN has to offer. Even her friends, some of our own players have cajoled her, but she's not sold. What new data can she be waiting for?
No, something is wrong for her here; and it's just possible it's her concern about playing time. I think from what I've heard she wants to be the instant star, the attention getter that she could easily be somewhere else. You more than anyone else keep saying Geno won't play freshman over upperclassmen. Or maybe it's some other factor, but many of our great ones have just come in and said "I gotta be here". There's just no advantage in delaying for her or her team mates.
Another of my unpopular posts, but hey, I don't mind being wrong. If she comes I'll buy you a beer at one of the games.

 

[DEK1234]

You have a good memory doggy. It's opinion, not factual, call it intuition.
She's been all around, seen all the good choices, she knows everything UCONN has to offer. Even her friends, some of our own players have cajoled her, but she's not sold. What new data can she be waiting for?
No, something is wrong for her here; and it's just possible it's her concern about playing time. I think from what I've heard she wants to be the instant star, the attention getter that she could easily be somewhere else. You more than anyone else keep saying Geno won't play freshman over upperclassmen. Or maybe it's some other factor, but many of our great ones have just come in and said "I gotta be here". There's just no advantage in delaying for her or her team mates.
Another of my unpopular posts, but hey, I don't mind being wrong. If she comes I'll buy you a beer at one of the games.

Moriah didn't commit until May of her junior year. Bria didn't commit until her senior year. I think Diamond's just making sure she makes the right decision. Whether it be UConn or not, I think she just wants to be confident in her choice.

I don't believe she ever said she wants to be an INSTANT star. But by the end of her career she wants to be remembered. I believe Morgan Tuck had similar sentiments.

 

[doggydaddy]

Moriah didn't commit until May of her junior year. Bria didn't commit until her senior year. I think Diamond's just making sure she makes the right decision. Whether it be UConn or not, I think she just wants to be confident in her choice.

I don't believe she ever said she wants to be an INSTANT star. But by the end of her career she wants to be remembered. I believe Morgan Tuck had similar sentiments.

Not ONE of the top 16 has committed, yet DeShields is not committing to UConn because she hasn't done so yet?

Now THAT is ridiculous.

 

[HuskyMJ]

Not ONE of the top 16 has committed, yet DeShields is not committing to UConn because she hasn't done so yet?

Now THAT is ridiculous.

That makes it look like no one is committing but there is some committing going on. If you go by Bluestar 7 of the top 32 have committed. Funny how even though the rankings are different, 1-16 are still uncommitted on both sites. 1-40 is a good comparison because that is an elite group and I noticed for the mcdonalds game nearly all of them were in the top 40 range.

17. Alexis Brown, Maryland
18. Briana Day, UNC
22. Makayla Epps, Louisville
26. Tyshell King, Wake Forest
29. A'lexus Harrison, Maryland
30. Jada Terry, Texas
32. Kianna Holland, Duke

 

[doggydaddy]

That makes it look like no one is committing but there is some committing going on. If you go by Bluestar 7 of the top 32 have committed. Funny how even though the rankings are different, 1-16 are still uncommitted on both sites. 1-40 is a good comparison because that is an elite group and I noticed for the mcdonalds game nearly all of them were in the top 40 range.

17. Alexis Brown, Maryland
18. Briana Day, UNC
22. Makayla Epps, Louisville
26. Tyshell King, Wake Forest
29. A'lexus Harrison, Maryland
30. Jada Terry, Texas
32. Kianna Holland, Duke

14 of the top 60 in hoopgurlz. Only 20%. But its more reflective when looking at the top 15 and NONE have committied. Those are the difference makers.

 

[Bestiarius]

Moriah didn't commit until May of her junior year. Bria didn't commit until her senior year. I think Diamond's just making sure she makes the right decision. Whether it be UConn or not, I think she just wants to be confident in her choice.

I don't believe she ever said she wants to be an INSTANT star. But by the end of her career she wants to be remembered. I believe Morgan Tuck had similar sentiments.

Regarding committing, I think this year is different. Let's call it the "Summitt Effect." That's the possibility of committing with the coach you really want to play for and then having something happening to that coach.

So, for the top recruits, there is little disadvantage in delaying. Teams will always find a spot 'n scholly for the elites. For those who are not quite top shelf, delaying may cost them a spot on the teams they are considering, or they might lose a scholarship, thus they would be more likely to committ early.

 

[speedoo]

You have a good memory doggy. It's opinion, not factual, call it intuition.
She's been all around, seen all the good choices, she knows everything UCONN has to offer. Even her friends, some of our own players have cajoled her, but she's not sold. What new data can she be waiting for?
No, something is wrong for her here; and it's just possible it's her concern about playing time. I think from what I've heard she wants to be the instant star, the attention getter that she could easily be somewhere else. You more than anyone else keep saying Geno won't play freshman over upperclassmen. Or maybe it's some other factor, but many of our great ones have just come in and said "I gotta be here". There's just no advantage in delaying for her or her team mates.
Another of my unpopular posts, but hey, I don't mind being wrong. If she comes I'll buy you a beer at one of the games.

Where, exactly have you heard that?

 

[rocky rococo]

One example of a player that "had" to start was exactly the case of a player with arguably less overall talent being the starter: Morgan Valley starting over Ashley Battle. But Morgan's strengths were things like composure, execution, steadiness, that would help the team get on track from the opening tip. Then, once the team was in its groove, in would come AB to up the intensity and energy level. I can very easily envision Geno considering CD to have much of the same stabilizing qualities that Morgan offered.

It has also been Geno's general practice to keep experienced upper class players in starting roles, but he's never locked himself into that as a hard and fast rule either. Bam Bam is a good example of an upperclassman starter that had to accept being moved into a bench, backup role as Tamika and Swin emerged.

 

[John Fryer]

Wow! This is a very interesting thread.

There are a couple of points that I would like to add:

1) Relating to commits, it was posted here previously (sorry, I forgot the poster's name) that Diamond maybe concerned about UConn be located in cow country (my words, lol), and the absence of a sizeable minority community at Storrs.

2) While who starts may or may not be important to most BYs and to coach A it is a fact that who starts can be and usually is important to elite players. If I recall correctly, Morgan Tuck's reply to a question about being a UConn recruit hinted that she would accept not starting. But only if the starter was a better player than herself.

3) As to setting the tone of the game, that works in both directions. Most BYs are probably aware of the fact that opposing coaches of elite teams see Caroline as a defensive liability. For example, in the UK game the sideline tv reporter said that she had overheard the UK coach remind the player being guarded by Caroline to drive past her because Caroline couldn't stop her. (If you doubt this watch the replay on ESPN 3.)

And lastly, the upcoming game against ND should provide more evidence about which group (constructive v. liability) may or may not be right about Caroline's game in the single most important game of the season.

I sincerely hope that the constructive view is the correct view.

Peace,

John Fryer

 

[Buckaroobanzai]

FWIW, i think Caroline starts. i'm not so sure it's about loyalty. altho i do agree to an extent it's about "you are a starter till you lose your position". but think about how easy it is to lose your starting position - Stef almost lost hers midway thru the year as Kiah came on strong and Stef struggled. IIRC, Geno said something like "i considered just starting Kiah over Stef, but was ocncerned about what it would to do Stef's confidence".

i think it has more to do with 2 things (why CD will start). people have waxed eloquently about all the intangibles CD brings so i won't belabor that again. but the other thing is that she's coming off her 3rd ACL tear. Even Geno said it makes little sense to have her warm up, get the knee ready to go, then sit her on the bench for 10-15 minutes to start a game and let the knee get cold.

Geno doesn't like starting a freshman unless he has to. even our greatest he didn't start unless injuries forced them into the role, or like last year, there was simply no one else.

Caroline, Bria, Kelly, KML and Stef start. i couldn't begin to tell ya who is first off the bench since it depends if he wants to ring in a guard, wing/forward, or center. but with a bench as talented as ours, it will be no letup when Moriah, Brianna, Morgan, Breanna or Kiah come in.

i'd be very surprised to see anyone average over 25 minutes per game. i'd also not be surprised to see an active full court press for 30+ minutes every game (not blowouts of course).

If the best that Uconn can offer a prospective recruit over the next two years is 25 minutes a game, then, in my view, we have no chance to land an elite player like DD. She is not going to college to play half games.

 

[ju6381]

If the best that Uconn can offer a prospective recruit over the next two years is 25 minutes a game, then, in my view, we have no chance to land an elite player like DD. She is not going to college to play half games.

25 minutes is closer to 63% but is certainly not 90% of a game. Elite players like DD will be closer to 30-35 minutes in a big game. There will be games where it is decided in the first half and other players will get their chance to play. UConn also plays a tough schedule every year that presents great prospects the stage to become a star since they play the Baylors, Stanfords, ND, Duke, etc...

 

[Buckaroobanzai]

25 minutes is closer to 63% but is certainly not 90% of a game. Elite players like DD will be closer to 30-35 minutes in a big game. There will be games where it is decided in the first half and other players will get their chance to play. UConn also plays a tough schedule every year that presents great prospects the stage to become a star since they play the Baylors, Stanfords, ND, Duke, etc...

I really, really, really hope that DD comes to Uconn. Whether one is a "part time" player is, I guess, a matter of perspective. If DD chooses Tennessee (I will bite my tongue, beat a solid mea culpa and pull out the sackcloth and ashes), the weakness in Orange recruiting would surely guarantee DD a starting position and 35 minutes a game. At least that is what I deduce from perusing the Summitt. At some point, Uconn's recruiting success will work against it.

 

[Icebear]

I don't find it ridiculous or stubborn. It's smart. It sends a message to the younger players that you have to earn your starting position. That once you have it, you have to do something to lose it. And it will be the same when they are seniors and the next great thing is recruited.

I fully agree.

 

[Icebear]

"Buckaroobanzai said: ↑
If the best that Uconn can offer a prospective recruit over the next two years is 25 minutes a game, then, in my view, we have no chance to land an elite player like DD. She is not going to college to play half games."

You frequently seem to assume or at least state worst case scenarios. It all that being a Husky or part of the UCONN program was about was court minutes you might be right. However, it is about so much more. I think the right kids figure this out.

 

[Icebear]

Loyalty is what breeds complacency, entitlement, and mediocrity. Seniority being a proxy for merit sends a horrible message in any organizational context. This isn't debatable, no matter how great this country may be.

Kaleena should have started this year. Breanna should start next year.

Oh, but I'll be "proven" wrong because we start less than our best five and will still slaughter everyone but Baylor. Doesn't mean it's not ridiculous.

Disagree with this, Alex, I that what you are suggesting depends tremendously on personality types.

 

[Icebear]

These debates about 'who starts' are amazing. When was the last time any of you read a game report that summarized the game and it said, 'But the starters were 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5?' Even Geno has said NUMEROUS times on his show "Who cares? People get too hung up on this stuff."

Bingo, what, also, amazes me is that we have 20+ years of evidence of exactly "HOW" Geno handles these situations and it is far closer to what doggy is suggesting than Alex. Are there variances, sure. But Geno's history is pretty consistent with few exceptions unless for specific cause, such as, injury or complete vacancy at the position. It may be illogical to some BUT it is what is most likely to happen. I expect if he foresees anything else occurring he would share it during the end of season exit interviews.

 

[doggydaddy]

Wow! This is a very interesting thread.

There are a couple of points that I would like to add:

1) Relating to commits, it was posted here previously (sorry, I forgot the poster's name) that Diamond maybe concerned about UConn be located in cow country (my words, lol), and the absence of a sizeable minority community at Storrs.

This is the most absurd thing I have read in this thread and that is saying something. Whoever that poster was (and I don't remember this at all), it was made up or just an opinion and certainly not based on anything deshields said. Wow.

2) While who starts may or may not be important to most BYs and to coach A it is a fact that who starts can be and usually is important to elite players. If I recall correctly, Morgan Tuck's reply to a question about being a UConn recruit hinted that she would accept not starting. But only if the starter was a better player than herself.

Another absurd statement. Tuck has said NOTHING like this.

3) As to setting the tone of the game, that works in both directions. Most BYs are probably aware of the fact that opposing coaches of elite teams see Caroline as a defensive liability. For example, in the UK game the sideline tv reporter said that she had overheard the UK coach remind the player being guarded by Caroline to drive past her because Caroline couldn't stop her. (If you doubt this watch the replay on ESPN 3.)

1-1 defense, she can struggle with quicker players. It's not news here. But she does a great job off the ball and in a zone. Her defensive liability is overstated here.

And lastly, the upcoming game against ND should provide more evidence about which group (constructive v. liability) may or may not be right about Caroline's game in the single most important game of the season.

The upcoming game is not a referendum on Caroline Doty or the posters here.

I sincerely hope that the constructive view is the correct view.

Peace,

John Fryer

 

[doggydaddy]

If the best that Uconn can offer a prospective recruit over the next two years is 25 minutes a game, then, in my view, we have no chance to land an elite player like DD. She is not going to college to play half games.

it's not half games. and check out my post on the 2000 team where ONE player was over 25 a game. Way more than one elite player on that team.

What an insult to the players that they only care about playing 30 minutes and not 25. IF that is how they feel, Geno doesn't want them.

 

[doggydaddy]

I really, really, really hope that DD comes to Uconn. Whether one is a "part time" player is, I guess, a matter of perspective. If DD chooses Tennessee (I will bite my tongue, beat a solid mea culpa and pull out the sackcloth and ashes), the weakness in Orange recruiting would surely guarantee DD a starting position and 35 minutes a game. At least that is what I deduce from perusing the Summitt. At some point, Uconn's recruiting success will work against it.

35 minutes a game is way more than anyone plays on Tennessee. Stricklen this year was 32. no one else over 30.

Simmons played 25 a game.

So, how is she guarenteed 35 a game at UT?

If she is looking for a guarentee for starting and 35 minutes, Geno won't take her. He doesn't do that.