2016 #1 DRAFT PICK: B.STEWART OR J. LLOYD

[bballnut90]

1-- I disagree big time with number 1. We were beaten 3 times. I think it gives ND absolutely no respect at all to not even acknowledge they were better than us in those 3 games. It came down the stretch because they were such a great defensive and were able to stop us when they needed to.

2--- No. As I've been saying "money ball" time is NCAA's. She gets "points" for being number 2 behind STewie. But give me the player the hasn't been completely shutdown in the final four. Twice Loyd has. I have to bring up her frosh year because you also bring it up. For example if you can being up her frosh year when she scored 24 vs Baylor - then I can bring up the NCAA's when she did absolutely nothing. Jimmie Johnson once said as he evaluates qb's he thought it was most important not to look at the plays they make but more importantly the plays they don't make. So far twice in NCAA's Loyd's play has been awful vs UCONN.

3--- You're talking "averages." Then if a player doesn't meet their average then it means what? They're awful? The point I believe is most important is "did she play well." She played decent. A 15pt 10 rebound game is decent with the stats I gave is decent. It's that she is doing in the pros. When you are talking greatness being that super number 1 pick you don't use data such as what Jordan or Bird did vs an expansion team or a mediocre team. How did they do vs the best of the best? And Stewie shredded ND her frosh year in the money game vs a great defensive team that beat them three times not because they were lucky- beucase overall those games they were better (though refs robbed us 1 game).

4-- I enjoy your posts. I used to post to you a long time ago on the old espn board and I was a bit rude. I apologized to you on here before about that - don't think you saw it. Anyhow -- while Diggins shot the ball horribly she forced Bria to shoot horribly. As far as a GM- I'm looking at UCONN as a kind of a WNBA team in which you got lots of size along with athltcism. There isn't much of a weakness at the college level for UCONN- some but not a lot. That's the type of talent and defense Loyd will be up against relatively speaking in her pro career. This the Mich State's and the MD team that quit - they aren't that great of barometers. Sure they are to some extent. That's why I have her 2.

Heckl I agree with your comments for Loyd and right now is Reg Season NPOY - that's why I brought up for example Beard vs DT. I am impressed with Loyd - a thread a while ago I came clean and never thought she'd be this awesome. With that said - when you compare Peyton Manning vs Tom Brady- you have a reason why one is better. You just can't disregard the shortcomings of both and just look at the good stuff. I get that Loyd is accumulating stats - and playing great - but if Ogwumike and McBride can play decent vs UCONN when it matters- there is no reason why Loyd can't do it. Yet she hasn't yet. If she is as good as you suggest NPOY - this will be her 3rd crack at UCONN she should be able to at least be productive. When you are supposedly in Stewie's class of greatness - there is no way you should get shutdown 3 or maybe 4 times if you are that great- in Stewie's class. Stewie made the Nat'l team and shredded ND her frosh year and had a strong soph campaign from beginning of that season to end - because she is great. The bar is raised and though Loyd's reg season stats have been terrific - what do you do money time? Why do so many think Brady is greater than Peyton? If Peyton lost 35-31 that's one thing. Loyd doesn't need to win - just show us you can not be shutdown for the most important game of the year. Right now the problem with Loyd is that we are comparing her to "Big Game Stewie."

I think it's safe to say that we disagree on a few stances here. If you're looking at body of work for how great of a collegiate player/college career Loyd has had vs Stewart, there's no comparison. Stewart is 2-2 in title games and has put up huge numbers in the Final Four. Loyd has 2 Final Fours to her credit but no titles and poor showings against UCONN in the NCAA tournament. When you look at a players legacy as far as who is in the argument for "best ever," I don't see Loyd being in that argument where Stewart will have a pretty good resume to be considered in that elite group.


If I'm a WNBA GM, I would definitely take this into consideration. I would also take into consideration how much Loyd has improved each year and how much potential she has. I know I have only seen her play against collegiate teams, but I think she has potential to be another Deanna Nolan, who led her team to 3 WNBA Championships, was on several All-WNBA teams and widely regarded as one of the best guards in the world during her prime. Loyd went from being the 4th scoring option as a freshman, to an All-American as a sophomore, to arguably the best player in the nation as a junior. The game against Tennessee was the best I've seen her play, she didn't force anything, was incredibly smooth and Tennessee had no answer for her. On the flip side, with Stewart, I don't think we've seen her best play yet this season. She would've been a surefire #1 pick a year ago and was everyone's pick for preseason POY after hauling in hardware last year. This season though, she is not playing at the same level she did a year ago, and she was outplayed by Loyd when they faced ND earlier this year. As a GM, I don't find this concerning considering that UCONN is the best team in women's basketball right now and she is still having a fine season, even if it is slightly underwhelming considering expectations. She'd still be the #1 pick in my book right now, but if Loyd continues to play at such a high level while Stewart hasn't shown us as much this year, I could see Loyd overtaking Stewart at #1 next season. It'd be fun to bring up this topic again at the end of the season and see what people's thoughts are then, as it has definitely stirred some conversation on the board.

 

[HuskyNan]

You are talking only WNBA. They make about $170K if you're pretty good when you combine.

Again, not everyone is driven by money.

IMO, this all moot and that Loyd will be back at ND next year. It's fun to bat the topic around, though.

 

[meyers7]

Regarding the OP's question- let's just say that there wouldn't be a real loser if you picked either one.

IDK, you don't pass up Moore, you don't pass up DT, you don't pass up Parker, and you don't pass up Stewart.

 

[hoophuskee]

I think it's safe to say that we disagree on a few stances here. If you're looking at body of work for how great of a collegiate player/college career Loyd has had vs Stewart, there's no comparison. Stewart is 2-2 in title games and has put up huge numbers in the Final Four. Loyd has 2 Final Fours to her credit but no titles and poor showings against UCONN in the NCAA tournament. When you look at a players legacy as far as who is in the argument for "best ever," I don't see Loyd being in that argument where Stewart will have a pretty good resume to be considered in that elite group.


If I'm a WNBA GM, I would definitely take this into consideration. I would also take into consideration how much Loyd has improved each year and how much potential she has. I know I have only seen her play against collegiate teams, but I think she has potential to be another Deanna Nolan, who led her team to 3 WNBA Championships, was on several All-WNBA teams and widely regarded as one of the best guards in the world during her prime. Loyd went from being the 4th scoring option as a freshman, to an All-American as a sophomore, to arguably the best player in the nation as a junior. The game against Tennessee was the best I've seen her play, she didn't force anything, was incredibly smooth and Tennessee had no answer for her. On the flip side, with Stewart, I don't think we've seen her best play yet this season. She would've been a surefire #1 pick a year ago and was everyone's pick for preseason POY after hauling in hardware last year. This season though, she is not playing at the same level she did a year ago, and she was outplayed by Loyd when they faced ND earlier this year. As a GM, I don't find this concerning considering that UCONN is the best team in women's basketball right now and she is still having a fine season, even if it is slightly underwhelming considering expectations. She'd still be the #1 pick in my book right now, but if Loyd continues to play at such a high level while Stewart hasn't shown us as much this year, I could see Loyd overtaking Stewart at #1 next season. It'd be fun to bring up this topic again at the end of the season and see what people's thoughts are then, as it has definitely stirred some conversation on the board.

The biggest problem with Stewie is that she isn't hitting shots that we expect her to hit. Of course her defense and rebounding can improve but that is masked by her length. Larry Bird had defensive issues too. SO did Magic. Anyway, when Stewie blocks a shot at one end and then runs the floor and either converts on a fastbreak or gets an offensive rebound then converts at the other it looks like a "ho-hum" play at the other. But when a guard steals the ball and similar action happens - it is much more exciting.

I agree about Loyd as a great player which is why she is number 2 at this moment. But on the flip side if she goes 6-20 in a possible matchup again with UCONN - if I'm a GM - I'm aksing "why?" It's more than just the name on the UCONN jersey. WHat is it specifically that UCONN is doing? Why was McBride while Loyd can't. . . etc. WHy is Loyd just a 31.5 3pt shooter while Stewart is shooting better than her from 3 despite Stewart having an off-shooting year but got hot again just like she usaally does? The GM is goingt o lok at the failures of loyd too.

 

[Striper69]

I went to 3 last year. All involved the Mercury - 2 playoff games vs the Lynx and one regular season game vs San Antonio. San Antonio had no chance to win, before, during or after. I only went to that game because a friend won a luxury box for the night and invited me. The two Lynx playoff games were great, especially with the "UCONN's best player ever vs UCONN's other best player ever" aspect. I try to get to a couple Mercury games every year. It's sad, but when I don't get in for free (they have many "dump the extra tickets" promos) I can always buy good seats on the street outside the arena for below face value. And this is a good team.

That was my point- you watched the two elite teams play each other. The rest of the teams are a tier below those two but they're still pretty evenly matched although I believe Atlanta has a chance to beat either of them this year with Shoni and the rest maturing. The same applies to all the rest of the teams. They're all getting better each year and none of them are "bad" teams. The most talented league of athletes in the world.

 

[Striper69]

BD~

I'm not being disrespectful at all and I don't discount the the immense athletic ability of JL. What does she do well? She's played the Guard position for 3 seasons @ ND, she doesn't have exceptional ball-handking skills, she's not a great or even good passer, she isn't an exceptional shooter, she isn't a great one-on-one defender as Bria Hartley proved, she isn't a a great rebounder for her size. She's a great athlete who can run and jump and she plays at ND. I don't know what you're definition of special is, but here are a few examples; Odyssey Sims, Kayla McBride, Danielle Robinson, Lili Thompson, Kelsey Mitchell are all examples of special one-on-one talent. I'm sure I missed some but JL isn't in that class. If you watch Gabby Williams you'll see what I'm talking about.

" What does she do well?"
Prettty much everything you said she doesn't.

JL is in a different category than the players you mention there. Courtney Williams is a lot like her.

 

[BlueDevils]

" What does she do well?"
Prettty much everything you said she doesn't.

JL is in a different category than the players you mention there. Courtney Williams is a lot like her.

Thank you!

 

[Orangutan]

The biggest problem with Stewie is that she isn't hitting shots that we expect her to hit. Of course her defense and rebounding can improve but that is masked by her length. Larry Bird had defensive issues too. SO did Magic. Anyway, when Stewie blocks a shot at one end and then runs the floor and either converts on a fastbreak or gets an offensive rebound then converts at the other it looks like a "ho-hum" play at the other. But when a guard steals the ball and similar action happens - it is much more exciting.

I agree about Loyd as a great player which is why she is number 2 at this moment. But on the flip side if she goes 6-20 in a possible matchup again with UCONN - if I'm a GM - I'm aksing "why?" It's more than just the name on the UCONN jersey. WHat is it specifically that UCONN is doing? Why was McBride while Loyd can't. . . etc. WHy is Loyd just a 31.5 3pt shooter while Stewart is shooting better than her from 3 despite Stewart having an off-shooting year but got hot again just like she usaally does? The GM is goingt o lok at the failures of loyd too.

Loyd is a career 38% shooter from 3, I think she was just short of 40% last year. I think you'll see her % go up now that Turner and Allen have emerged a little bit. She was forcing it a little earlier this year, especially when Turner was out.

 

[rocky rococo]

Team need. Guard or forward? Can't go wrong either way. If you're picking second, you hope you have the opposite need of the team picking first.

 

[Zorro]

Team need. Guard or forward? Can't go wrong either way. If you're picking second, you hope you have the opposite need of the team picking first.

Actually, Rocky, if someone offers you a choice between a $5 bill and a $10 bill, and you take the fin, you have gone wrong.

 

[iamcbs]

Thank you!

Courtney Williams is a better player IMO than JL, she's a better ball-handler and shooter w/o question. You and BD are JL fans and so be it. Based on everything I've seen, she isn't even in the same conversation with Breanna Stewart. Kayla McBride was a better player and she wasn't projected as high as she went.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

The OP depends on team needs. Most take Stewie a team with a strong front line might well take Loyd. Tuck will not go.

It is said that brevity is the soul of wit. Very soulful post BrerBear.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Actually, Rocky, if someone offers you a choice between a $5 bill and a $10 bill, and you take the fin, you have gone wrong.

Don't pin that one on me gris, he's rocky. I'm Rocky!

 

[Orangutan]

Courtney Williams is a better player IMO than JL, she's a better ball-handler and shooter w/o question. You and BD are JL fans and so be it. Based on everything I've seen, she isn't even in the same conversation with Breanna Stewart. Kayla McBride was a better player and she wasn't projected as high as she went.

This ND fan humbly disagrees. I think Loyd is better than McBride. And McBride is from my hometown and the reason I started following ND.

By the way, Loyd's career fg and 3fg% is much better than Williams'. Williams' 3FG % is much better this year but it's only on 17 attempts, and Loyd's overall fg% is better this year (47.7% to 43.3%). Loyd is also a much better free throw shooter. Career 81.9% vs. 65.7%

As to the ball-handling, Loyd has a 1.5 assist/turnover ratio. Williams is at 0.9 A/TO.

 

[rocky rococo]

Actually, Rocky, if someone offers you a choice between a $5 bill and a $10 bill, and you take the fin, you have gone wrong.

Unlike $5s and $10s, guards and forwards aren't fungible, all Gabby experiences to the contrary as may be.

 

[rocky rococo]

Am I correct in believing there are more than one Courtney Williams with a high profile in wcbb?

 

[Orangutan]

Am I correct in believing there are more than one Courtney Williams with a high profile in wcbb?

I was thinking of the Texas A&M one. USF also has a Courtney Williams. Compared to the USF Courtney Williams, Loyd also has a higher field goal percentage, higher career 3FG% (but lower this year), and better A/TO ratio, so it doesn't really change my comments.

 

[Striper69]

I was thinking of the Texas A&M one. USF also has a Courtney Williams. Compared to the USF Courtney Williams, Loyd also has a higher field goal percentage, higher career 3FG% (but lower this year), and better A/TO ratio, so it doesn't really change my comments.

I was talking about the USF Courtney Williams. She plays on a less talented/with freshman team than JL. Most of the scoring load is on her every game. JL now has Turner to take some pressure off her.
I saw CW play Maryland and she drove a lot with 2 or 3 of the MD frontline on her every time. She had layups rolling around the rim most times but they didn't go in. I suspect a lot of her games are like that.

 

[iamcbs]

This ND fan humbly disagrees. I think Loyd is better than McBride. And McBride is from my hometown and the reason I started following ND.

By the way, Loyd's career fg and 3fg% is much better than Williams'. Williams' 3FG % is much better this year but it's only on 17 attempts, and Loyd's overall fg% is better this year (47.7% to 43.3%). Loyd is also a much better free throw shooter. Career 81.9% vs. 65.7%

As to the ball-handling, Loyd has a 1.5 assist/turnover ratio. Williams is at 0.9 A/TO.

A/TO Ratio isn't an indicator of one's ability to handle the BB, shooting %'s are applicable especially when you look at shot selection. JL has been in here career an excellent FT shooter. I never said she's bereft of talent. I said the premise of this thread is meritless. The play of ND this season show's the true worth of KMac, so I'll maintain my opinion on that.

 

[Orangutan]

The play of ND this season show's the true worth of KMac, so I'll maintain my opinion on that.

I don't disagree with that, but I think it reflects how much better McBride is than Mabrey rather than anything about Loyd.

 

[Striper69]

McBride and Achonwa were like Dolson and Hartley last year. They both anchored their teams in much the same manner. It's too bad we couldn't see what would've happened if Achonwa hadn't gotten injured.

 

[Orangutan]

McBride and Achonwa were like Dolson and Hartley last year. They both anchored their teams in much the same manner. It's too bad we couldn't see what would've happened if Achonwa hadn't gotten injured.

It is too bad, though for the record (and to forestall this discussion from happening for the nth time), I think UConn would have still won comfortably. But it would have been fun to watch one last round between Dolson and Achonwa. I actually think ND misses Achonwa more, even though McBride is a better player. Her leadership and toughness in the post have been sorely missed.

 

[baggerbob]

The biggest problem with Stewie is that she isn't hitting shots that we expect her to hit. Of course her defense and rebounding can improve but that is masked by her length. Larry Bird had defensive issues too. SO did Magic. Anyway, when Stewie blocks a shot at one end and then runs the floor and either converts on a fastbreak or gets an offensive rebound then converts at the other it looks like a "ho-hum" play at the other. But when a guard steals the ball and similar action happens - it is much more exciting.

I agree about Loyd as a great player which is why she is number 2 at this moment. But on the flip side if she goes 6-20 in a possible matchup again with UCONN - if I'm a GM - I'm aksing "why?" It's more than just the name on the UCONN jersey. WHat is it specifically that UCONN is doing? Why was McBride while Loyd can't. . . etc. WHy is Loyd just a 31.5 3pt shooter while Stewart is shooting better than her from 3 despite Stewart having an off-shooting year but got hot again just like she usaally does? The GM is goingt o lok at the failures of loyd too.

The last game Stewie blocked a 3 pt shot, and took it the other way for 2 points. She can change games on both ends of the floor, so you as a GM take Stewie, and all Stewie's best years are ahead of her.

 

[malevocalist#]

In perspective to the post...I love Stewart as a player and all that she brings to the game. Especially her upside. She's only going to get better.

Loyd is a special talent in her own right as well. If I am GM. I definately considering the need of the team. I don't want to draft just the best player of the draft. But the best player that soots what we as a team needs to get to the next level to inhance the value & competitiveness of the team.

Has geno gone after every number (1) recruit? I don't know personally. Maybe he has. But have there ever been a time he did not want a number one recruit and sought otherwise regarding the teams need?

I understand also that the college game differs from the WNBA when it comes to #1 players.

In the WNBA sometimes the #1 pick is drafted and traded for two good players on another team or multiple draft picks.

In addition If a team desperately needs a guard of jewell's caliber would they draft Stewart instead anyway?

Well yes it's not 2016 yet. Many months away to tell. And yes i know a team can trade for a decent gaurd withing the league and still retain Stewart. Who is to darn good and appealing to pass up on. I'm just thinking outside the box thats all.

 

[malevocalist#]

Please pardon the typo error...I meant a team could trade (within) the league.

 

[malevocalist#]

McBride and Achonwa were like Dolson and Hartley last year. They both anchored their teams in much the same manner. It's too bad we couldn't see what would've happened if Achonwa hadn't gotten injured.

I said the same thing to myself. Though I still had uconn beating ND by 10 with Achonwa. I hate to see any team lose a player to injuries. ND wasn't at full strength without Achonwa..And uconn lost a good one in tuck (who would have probably reach the potential she's at this year last year) if not for her surgery.

The difference between those two absentees from their respective team was that Uconn was still great & faired better than ND without Achonwa.

 

[hoophuskee]

Loyd is a special talent in her own right as well. If I am GM. I definately considering the need of the team. I don't want to draft just the best player of the draft. But the best player that soots what we as a team needs to get to the next level to inhance the value & competitiveness of the team.

In addition If a team desperately needs a guard of jewell's caliber would they draft Stewart instead anyway?

Well yes it's not 2016 yet. Many months away to tell. And yes I know a team can trade for a decent guard within the league and still retain Stewart. Who is to darn good and appealing to pass up on. I'm just thinking outside the box that's all.

I enjoy these type of discussions. As for right now I think the obvious pick is Stewie. Here is why- when you are best of the best you fit. You make everyone better. The most important team need when you are speaking of the number 1 pick is being fortunate enough to get an all-time great. IMO you don't worry about the next year or two- you want to build around the all-time great. Stewie has shown the last two years when she competed against the best of the best in the most important games- she was tremendous. These type of games gives us glimpses of the future. IMO they are more important that a reg season game.

While Loyd is great and could become greater- fact is she stunk on the biggest stage vs UCONN - and she stunk the biggest stage. Her exploits vs MD and her reg season exploits are nice but you play for championships when you are Stewie and Loyd. Until such time when Loyd has "a game" vs NCAA's there is no reason to gamble on her vs Stewie. We've seen it all before with Alana Beard vs DT their sr year haven't we? Beard took down DT at UCONN. Beard was NPOY. What did we SEE in the NCAA that was a glimpse of what happened in the future?

I'd like to ask you a question - if you know the NBA. If you don't know the NBA then this scenario/question will be irrelevant.
Say Kobe Bryant is young and his team stinks and they have the 1st pick. His team has a chance to take great pg Chris Paul or sg Michael Jordan. Who do you take?

I'd take Jordan.

 

[malevocalist#]

I enjoy these type of discussions. As for right now I think the obvious pick is Stewie. Here is why- when you are best of the best you fit. You make everyone better. The most important team need when you are speaking of the number 1 pick is being fortunate enough to get an all-time great. IMO you don't worry about the next year or two- you want to build around the all-time great. Stewie has shown the last two years when she competed against the best of the best in the most important games- she was tremendous. These type of games gives us glimpses of the future. IMO they are more important that a reg season game.

While Loyd is great and could become greater- fact is she stunk on the biggest stage vs UCONN - and she stunk the biggest stage. Her exploits vs MD and her reg season exploits are nice but you play for championships when you are Stewie and Loyd. Until such time when Loyd has "a game" vs NCAA's there is no reason to gamble on her vs Stewie. We've seen it all before with Alana Beard vs DT their sr year haven't we? Beard took down DT at UCONN. Beard was NPOY. What did we SEE in the NCAA that was a glimpse of what happened in the future?

I'd like to ask you a question - if you know the NBA. If you don't know the NBA then this scenario/question will be irrelevant.
Say Kobe Bryant is young and his team stinks and they have the 1st pick. His team has a chance to take great pg Chris Paul or sg Michael Jordan. Who do you take?

I'd take Jordan.

I am 100% right there with you taking Jordan without any hesitation. Your post is well stated. I put my hands over my mouth. And will proceed no further.

 

[Striper69]

I said the same thing to myself. Though I still had uconn beating ND by 10 with Achonwa. I hate to see any team lose a player to injuries. ND wasn't at full strength without Achonwa..And uconn lost a good one in tuck (who would have probably reach the potential she's at this year last year) if not for her surgery.

The difference between those two absentees from their respective team was that Uconn was still great & faired better than ND without Achonwa.

Ah...but what if Dolson was unable to play that NC game and Achonwa was OK?

The game would've been up in the air. IMO

 

[malevocalist#]

Ah...but what if Dolson was unable to play that NC game and Achonwa was OK?

The game would've been up in the air. IMO

Made my hairs stand up saying that.....I am so glad that was never the case. And your right it definitely would have been a toss up. Every Uconn fan would have clipped their own nails with their teeth.