Zach Brown's recruitiment part of investigation | Page 7 | The Boneyard

Zach Brown's recruitiment part of investigation

gtcam

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Do you think I like saying it? Question. Xavier is playing us here. We only lose by 5? Please.
If St Johns plays Wichita State do they lose by 10?
We could play this comparative all day without conclusion
UConn is bad, St Johns is bad, Pitt is bad - on given days and vs certain teams some are worse than others
These posts of juxtaposing teams results vs like opponents are useless IMO
Do I think you like saying it? Most likely not but I think you do at this time in retrospect to your feelings towards KO
 

GemParty

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Anybody remember the post a while back where a guy claimed he heard from a big news source that UConn would be looked into soon. They guy was roasted for trolling & bad info.
 
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It seems to me there is a logical conclusion the NCAA COULD have come to regarding the UNC academic fraud that would have given them the authority to take away wins and championships as well as penalizing them with lost scholarships and anything else a reasonable person would have judged was warranted.

UNC admitted the classes were fraudulent. That would make the grades fraudulent which in turn means the "student athletes", who in many cases took multiple fake classes each semester, didn't take the minimum credits that semester or didn't have a high enough GPA and thus were ineligible.

But, when your TV contracts are negatively impacted by the lower ratings you'd have because the Duke/UNC games would have been banned for a year or more, you do what you have to do to keep the money flowing. The hell with honor and integrity.

I think it was a simple and clear-cut case of APR fraud over an extended period of time meant to funnel primarily athletes through the systen using a smattering of non-athletes a cover. But of course the lawyers and NCAA officials who determine these issues are men and women of unbiased and unimpeachable integrity with zero stake in the outcome so I must be way off base.
 
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>>The Courant has learned the NCAA has been interviewing various outside individuals, such as prep school coaches, about players UConn has recruited, whether or not they eventually committed to UConn.

According to a source with knowledge of the investigation, questions have been asked about numerous players, not necessarily one player or case, but generally about the program’s recruiting practices dating back a couple of years.

The inquiry, which UConn acknowledged Friday, has been going on for some time.<<

Call me a homer but this sounds like a witch hunt initiated from someone with a vendetta against the program. I'm very curious to hear how this started and what they find.

I just have a hard time believing there are going to be serious violations uncovered.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that if this level of investigation happened at any high major program that some kind of violations would be uncovered. Why us again? Go investigate Kentucky and tell me they're 100% clean.
 
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The UNC situation was different in that it involved academics. Universities are open to many things but the red line for them is that they will not give control of class content over to another entity. It opens a pandora’s box. Suppose someone offers a class on the economics of college sports that blasts the NCAA but is not as rigorous as typical economics classes at a given school. If you allow the NCAA to police it there could be real issues if they fail to certify it. Did they really oppose the rigor or the subject? And that is a real conflict. Better leave academics to the academics. And in the UNC case the school recognized the class as legit for earning a degree. If they had not there were too many problems for non-athletes.

Then you get into evaluating classes among 300 plus schools. That is where the NCAA would have to go if they went after UNC. Do you really think that classes at, say Louisville stack up with, say Harvard? Each school sets its own standards for class quality and graduation and that is just the way it has to be. UNC gamed the system and cheated its students but that isn’t the NCAA’s jurisdiction. And there is no way it can be.

If you are saying they can't evaluate academic fraud then you can't enforce APR standards because they are rendered meaningless.
 
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The UNC situation was different in that it involved academics. Universities are open to many things but the red line for them is that they will not give control of class content over to another entity. It opens a pandora’s box. Suppose someone offers a class on the economics of college sports that blasts the NCAA but is not as rigorous as typical economics classes at a given school. If you allow the NCAA to police it there could be real issues if they fail to certify it. Did they really oppose the rigor or the subject? And that is a real conflict. Better leave academics to the academics. And in the UNC case the school recognized the class as legit for earning a degree. If they had not there were too many problems for non-athletes.

Then you get into evaluating classes among 300 plus schools. That is where the NCAA would have to go if they went after UNC. Do you really think that classes at, say Louisville stack up with, say Harvard? Each school sets its own standards for class quality and graduation and that is just the way it has to be. UNC gamed the system and cheated its students but that isn’t the NCAA’s jurisdiction. And there is no way it can be.

Did you forget that UConn was banned for classroom performance?
 
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If you are saying they can't evaluate academic fraud then you can't enforce APR standards because they are rendered meaningless.
Not at all. APR says you need to take/pass a certain number of credits in a certain period. It doesn’t say what those credits must be and it doesn’t say English 205 taught by upstater counts but English 205 taught by professor Jones doesn’t. That’s left to the individual schools to determine. You want the NCAA to make that judgement. And in the UNC case again the University determined that those bogus classes counted toward a UNC degree. They counted for basketball players, for golfers, for football players and most importantly they counted for non-athletes, too. And that is a decision which both saved their butt, but also was theirs alone to make. And one they will never ever give to another group especially the NCAA. No university would. If UNC or UConn or Duke determines something is eligible for credit that’s the end of the story as far as the NCAA goes and it must be. No college president anywhere would vote to cede that authority to the NCAA. None.

Look, I think UNC was incredibly wrong. They cheated their students. But that is something that their Administration and BOT should deal with not the NCAA.
 
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Not at all. APR says you need to take/pass a certain number of credits in a certain period. It doesn’t say what those credits must be and it doesn’t say English 205 taught by upstater counts but English 205 taught by professor Jones doesn’t. That’s left to the individual schools to determine. You want the NCAA to make that judgement. And in the UNC case again the University determined that those bogus classes counted toward a UNC degree. They counted for basketball players, for golfers, for football players and most importantly they counted for non-athletes, too. And that is a decision which both saved their butt, but also was theirs alone to make. And one they will never ever give to another group especially the NCAA. No university would. If UNC or UConn or Duke determines something is eligible for credit that’s the end of the story as far as the NCAA goes and it must be. No college president anywhere would vote to cede that authority to the NCAA. None.

Look, I think UNC was incredibly wrong. They cheated their students. But that is something that their Administration and BOT should deal with not the NCAA.

The NCAA has never addressed UNC's APR scores in relation to the scandal.

The university has admitted wrongdoing. It has admitted the classes were bogus.

Here is where you are confused. It's not that so much that the NCAA should not become involved in academic and curricular decisions. Everyone agrees on that.

Rather, it's that UNC's own people determined that these classes were total frauds.

This relates to UNC's APR scores. Those scores included totally fraudulent classes.

UNC says this, but the NCAA never revisited UNC's APR calculations.
 
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If St Johns plays Wichita State do they lose by 10?
We could play this comparative all day without conclusion
UConn is bad, St Johns is bad, Pitt is bad - on given days and vs certain teams some are worse than others
These posts of juxtaposing teams results vs like opponents are useless IMO
Do I think you like saying it? Most likely not but I think you do at this time in retrospect to your feelings towards KO
We have no business making fun of St. John's and Pitt as if we're better than they are this year. Not with all of these blowouts.
 

krinklecut

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Anybody remember the post a while back where a guy claimed he heard from a big news source that UConn would be looked into soon. They guy was roasted for trolling & bad info.
He said his buddy at washpo told him UConn would be named in the FBI investigation. Now he's saying "see, told you!" even though that's not what's happening.
 
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The NCAA has never addressed UNC's APR scores in relation to the scandal.

The university has admitted wrongdoing. It has admitted the classes were bogus.

Here is where you are confused. It's not that so much that the NCAA should not become involved in academic and curricular decisions. Everyone agrees on that.

Rather, it's that UNC's own people determined that these classes were total frauds.

This relates to UNC's APR scores. Those scores included totally fraudulent classes.

UNC says this, but the NCAA never revisited UNC's APR calculations.
Nope. You are confused. UNC did not withdraw credit for the classes. That is the key. If the school had said Afrostudies 305 (made up the course title) was a fake course and everyone who took it loses the credits. If you now do not meet university graduation requirements after we recalculate your standing you will not be considered to have earned your UNC degree and must do one of x things to have it reinstated. Now they didn’t do that for a million reasons unrelated to basketball. Folks who have been out for 10-12 years and have jobs, advanced degrees and so on that all would be called into question. Determining the classes didn’t count was too much trouble. And the former students could argue that while maybe the class was a gut they figured it was legit since so many students took it, it was “taught” by the Dept Head, and was always approved. And at the end of the day that is why there was no APR issue. Because the players in question were enrolled in a class that was recognized as leading toward a degree. And the NCAA cannot and will not second guess that because it opens up a huge can of worms that the presidents cannot allow to be opened.
 
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The NCAA has never addressed UNC's APR scores in relation to the scandal.

The university has admitted wrongdoing. It has admitted the classes were bogus.

Here is where you are confused. It's not that so much that the NCAA should not become involved in academic and curricular decisions. Everyone agrees on that.

Rather, it's that UNC's own people determined that these classes were total frauds.

This relates to UNC's APR scores. Those scores included totally fraudulent classes.

UNC says this, but the NCAA never revisited UNC's APR calculations.

At that point it's not even about the actual "calculation" that might have been, but the intent to falsely manipulate it lower in order to create a buffer for the program and keep individual athletes eligible. A clear intent to circumvent the rules. What's so hard to understand? The fact that they chose to ignore that aspect is just a blatant example of playing favorites. Or to put it more bluntly, we'd probably have a 5 year ban imposed. And the excuse is that it's "too much trouble" to go back and figure out if classes were legit? Then shut down the NCAA.
 
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Nope. You are confused. UNC did not withdraw credit for the classes. That is the key. If the school had said Afrostudies 305 (made up the course title) was a fake course and everyone who took it loses the credits. If you now do not meet university graduation requirements after we recalculate your standing you will not be considered to have earned your UNC degree and must do one of x things to have it reinstated. Now they didn’t do that for a million reasons unrelated to basketball. Folks who have been out for 10-12 years and have jobs, advanced degrees and so on that all would be called into question. Determining the classes didn’t count was too much trouble. And the former students could argue that while maybe the class was a gut they figured it was legit since so many students took it, it was “taught” by the Dept Head, and was always approved. And at the end of the day that is why there was no APR issue. Because the players in question were enrolled in a class that was recognized as leading toward a degree. And the NCAA cannot and will not second guess that because it opens up a huge can of worms that the presidents cannot allow to be opened.

UNC's own investigation, the Wainstein report, in addition to UNC's accreditors, SAAC, called the classes fraudulent. UNC was put on probation because the classes were deemed fraudulent.

On that basis alone, the APR scores should have been redone. In fact, the NCAA even has a rule prohibiting fraudulent classes--but let's not go there. Let's focus on APR. If your accreditor puts you on probation and says outright, these were fraudulent classes (not to mention an internal report that came to the same conclusion), then that is enough for the NCAA to recalculate the APR.

The NCAA however was focusing on the classes as extra benefits.

It never went after the broken rule nor the APR. Just extra benefits.

Look at the Wainstain report:

"Two people within the department formerly known as African and Afro-American Studies (AFAM)—Julius Nyang’oro and Deborah Crowder—were responsible for offering hundreds of irregular classes at UNC-Chapel Hill between 1993 and 2011. These so-called “paper classes” were irregular in that they had no class attendance or faculty involvement, and Ms. Crowder, a non-faculty administrator, managed the classes and graded the papers."

Furthermore:

“Mr. Wainstein has found that the wrongdoing at Carolina lasted much longer and affected more students than previously known. The bad actions of a few and the inaction of others failed the University’s students, faculty and alumni, and undermined the institution as a whole,” said UNC-Chapel Hill Chancellor Carol L. Folt. “This conduct could and should have been stopped much earlier by individuals in positions of influence and oversight, and others could have sounded the alarm more forcefully.”

“I apologize first to the students who entrusted us with their education and took these courses. You deserved so much better from your University, and we will do everything we can to make it right,” continued Folt. “I also want to apologize to the Carolina community – you have been hurt both directly and indirectly by this wrongdoing, even though you had no knowledge or responsibility for it, and many of you were not even here when most or all of it occurred.”

This report was the basis of SAAC's probation of UNC. Wrongdoing, shame paper classes, no faculty, etc. The SAAC report calls them fraudulent.

What more do you need? UNC can say anything to defend itself, but UNC's accreditor passed judgment on those courses.
 
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HuskyHawk

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Nope. You are confused. UNC did not withdraw credit for the classes. That is the key. If the school had said Afrostudies 305 (made up the course title) was a fake course and everyone who took it loses the credits. If you now do not meet university graduation requirements after we recalculate your standing you will not be considered to have earned your UNC degree and must do one of x things to have it reinstated. Now they didn’t do that for a million reasons unrelated to basketball. Folks who have been out for 10-12 years and have jobs, advanced degrees and so on that all would be called into question. Determining the classes didn’t count was too much trouble. And the former students could argue that while maybe the class was a gut they figured it was legit since so many students took it, it was “taught” by the Dept Head, and was always approved. And at the end of the day that is why there was no APR issue. Because the players in question were enrolled in a class that was recognized as leading toward a degree. And the NCAA cannot and will not second guess that because it opens up a huge can of worms that the presidents cannot allow to be opened.

Sadly, I agree. Honestly, the NCAA needs vastly less power, not more. Now the UNC BOT should fire everyone involved in that whole situation and ensure it never happens again. They tarnished their reputation in the much more important are of academics.

The problem with the UConn APR situation is (a) that the APR calculation itself is flawed meaningless nonsense and (b) that the new standard was applied retroactively.
 

Yankees32123

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Anybody remember the post a while back where a guy claimed he heard from a big news source that UConn would be looked into soon. They guy was roasted for trolling & bad info.
Yeah I remember :rolleyes:
 
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The UNC situation was different in that it involved academics. Universities are open to many things but the red line for them is that they will not give control of class content over to another entity. It opens a pandora’s box. Suppose someone offers a class on the economics of college sports that blasts the NCAA but is not as rigorous as typical economics classes at a given school. If you allow the NCAA to police it there could be real issues if they fail to certify it. Did they really oppose the rigor or the subject? And that is a real conflict. Better leave academics to the academics. And in the UNC case the school recognized the class as legit for earning a degree. If they had not there were too many problems for non-athletes.

Then you get into evaluating classes among 300 plus schools. That is where the NCAA would have to go if they went after UNC. Do you really think that classes at, say Louisville stack up with, say Harvard? Each school sets its own standards for class quality and graduation and that is just the way it has to be. UNC gamed the system and cheated its students but that isn’t the NCAA’s jurisdiction. And there is no way it can be.

I may not have stated my point clearly. I meant to say that since UNC admitted the classes were fraudulent the NCAA could have said if that's the case, the credits weren't earned, nor were the grades earned, and therefore those players who needed those courses/grades to remain eligible are thus declared ineligible and all games in which
they participated are to be forfeited as will the championships won with those ineligible players.
Rashad McCants blew the whistle on the issue and he stated all four courses he "took" the second semester of his junior year (his last) were Afro studies courses so he certainly would have to be declared ineligible by my theory. Nice try, huh?
 

Fishy

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I don’t know why UNC or our APR issue is even being discussed. It doesn’t matter.

There’s no witch hunt here. The NCAA isn’t staying up nights trying to find a way to stop the seventh-best team in the American Conference.

They heard something from someone and that let them in the door. If UConn didn’t do anything, we’ll be fine. If they did, we won’t.

They’re not going to invent crap just for the hell of it.
 
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I don’t know why UNC or our APR issue is even being discussed. It doesn’t matter.

There’s no witch hunt here. The NCAA isn’t staying up nights trying to find a way to stop the seventh-best team in the American Conference.

They heard something from someone and that let them in the door. If UConn didn’t do anything, we’ll be fine. If they did, we won’t.

They’re not going to invent crap just for the hell of it.
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At that point it's not even about the actual "calculation" that might have been, but the intent to falsely manipulate it lower in order to create a buffer for the program and keep individual athletes eligible. A clear intent to circumvent the rules. What's so hard to understand? The fact that they chose to ignore that aspect is just a blatant example of playing favorites. Or to put it more bluntly, we'd probably have a 5 year ban imposed. And the excuse is that it's "too much trouble" to go back and figure out if classes were legit? Then shut down the NCAA.
No. The problem is that it affects anyone who took the course over a 10-15 year period. If it only effected athletes it is easy but it didn’t. This is the equivalent of a forger who got off for writing fake checks but dated them Feb 30. He argued that they were not even legal because the date didn’t exist. He walked away and the folks he fleeced lost.
 

the Q

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If you are saying they can't evaluate academic fraud then you can't enforce APR standards because they are rendered meaningless.

That was my argument the entire time when unc said the NCAA had no jurisdiction to punish.

Also, why take so long if you didn’t have the ability to punish? Why not just clear it before the tourney? Make it easy for them.
 

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