The Game Misses Pat Summitt

[geneticrex]

I am surprised that the Washington Post actually printed it without looking into the totality of the details.

I'm not.

Lotsa' that goin' round these days.

 

[VFLfan]

No problem here, we've moved on - without TN (Pat's choice). How's that working out for you?

You may have moved on...and I may have as well...in fact many have on both sides..but there are some on both sides that have not. I always try to be civil and give your program respect because that's what it deserves...your dig at our program above is taken with a gain of salt. I can take it. We'll be back...hopefully sooner than later...to challenge you guys again.

 

[j66kicker]

You may have moved on...and I may have as well...but there are some on both sides that have not. I am being civil...your dig at our program above is taken with a gain of salt. I can take it. We'll be back...hopefully sooner than later...to challenge you guys again.

Hopefully. And presumably you can take it - you DO know where you are (and you are very welcome here).

 

[tomcat]

First, for the record, I am no Pat fan, though wishing her only the best as she copes with an impossible medical situation. That said, it's easy to demonize her for the Maya complaints. Hell, I do it myself. But there is one thing that sticks in my mind that works against the whole Pat-as-evil thing, and I'd just like someone here to tell me whether I imagined it or not.

There was a UConn-TN championship that UConn won and, as I seem to recall, Pat went to the UConn locker room and asked to speak to the team and congratulate them. As much as I disliked her, I thought that was a very classy gesture from someone who certainly did not have to offer it. I remember that at the time, I was very impressed, if grudgingly.

Now my question is this: Did it happen and if so, how come no one ever gives her credit for doing something that IMHO very few coaches would do?

 

[Kibitzer]

You may have moved on...and I may have as well...in fact many have on both sides..but there are some on both sides that have not. I always try to be civil and give your program respect because that's what it deserves...your dig at our program above is taken with a gain of salt. I can take it. We'll be back...hopefully sooner than later...to challenge you guys again.

Unfortunately. Pat is (in this thread) often tarred with Ms Cornelius's filthy brush. Marie is the (im)moderator of The Summitt and for many years she has tolerated, even passively encouraged, a steady torrent of vile and despicable posts about Geno and the UConn Huskies. (VolNation is sustaining this tradition of x-rated vitriol.) You surely know that crap would not be permitted here. And by the way, haven't you felt comfortable posting here?

 

[JS]

There was a UConn-TN championship that UConn won and, as I seem to recall, Pat went to the UConn locker room and asked to speak to the team and congratulate them. As much as I disliked her, I thought that was a very classy gesture from someone who certainly did not have to offer it. I remember that at the time, I was very impressed, if grudgingly.

Now my question is this: Did it happen and if so, how come no one ever gives her credit for doing something that IMHO very few coaches would do?

It did happen. It was after TASS + D crushed Tennessee, 79-56, in the 2002 national semifinal game in San Antonio. And it was a very unusual thing to do. So unusual that Geno wasn't sure how to take it.

Excerpt from In Pursuit of Perfection:

She comes into the locker room and tells our guys she admires the way they play the game. She tells them they played like champions.

I'm not around when it happens, so I'm not really sure what context to put it in. People ask me what I think about it, and I don't know what to say. I always wonder when something like that happens. What is the motivation for doing it? Is it for publicity? To gain some kind of edge? I have no idea. I just thought it was a little odd.
​

Personally, I do think she deserves credit, whether or not she was seeking it. Geez, if every laudatory act were disqualified unless the person doing it was certifiably oblivious to the possibility of getting credit, we wouldn't have much left to admire.

​

 

[HuskyNan]

I am surprised that the Washington Post actually printed it without looking into the totality of the details.

Two words - Sally Jenkins. The woman co-wrote PHS's book and the two were very close friends.

 

[Bayareahusky]

It did happen. It was after TASS + D crushed Tennessee, 79-56, in the 2002 national semifinal game in San Antonio. And it was a very unusual thing to do. So unusual that Geno wasn't sure how to take it.

Excerpt from In Pursuit of Perfection:

She comes into the locker room and tells our guys she admires the way they play the game. She tells them they played like champions.

I'm not around when it happens, so I'm not really sure what context to put it in. People ask me what I think about it, and I don't know what to say. I always wonder when something like that happens. What is the motivation for doing it? Is it for publicity? To gain some kind of edge? I have no idea. I just thought it was a little odd.
​

Personally, I do think she deserves credit, whether or not she was seeking it. Geez, if every laudatory act were disqualified unless the person doing it was certifiably oblivious to the possibility of getting credit, we wouldn't have much left to admire.

​

Yes, this was definitely the Pat Summit we should remember ..... the coach who was capable of doing classy things and carried herself for the most part in exemplary manner

She had an incredible career..... and yes I agree with the premise that the game misses her..... that is Pat at her prime.... "Pat A" .... what she was in her letter years, "Pat B".... was a less likable shadow of what she had been.

As I have said before on this forum, I do not mind if the LV nation hates our program, our success, our coach..... and wants to publicize it.... is he arrogant, an idiot, classless, etc.... and more vile things that our former competitors down south have opined about him.... that is fine.... no harm no foul...... but the untruths keep coming, with nothing to back anything up..... and lies and falsehoods really cross the line , especially for a storied program that (this will sound familiar) is always "classy" and "does things the right way". It is laughable.

Bottom line is, Pat herself always said it is all about "cutting down the nets".... And, after 30 years on the bench, Pat had an incredible 852 wins, and 5 national championships.

Out coach though 30 years has 918 wins and 10 national titles - twice as many - in a much more competitive era.

It is abundantly clear where the bright star of WCBB shines, and I take it in stride when we hear from one of the incessant PHS disciples point to Pat's sainthood.

TN fans are hoping to get to next year's Final Four. We at UConn are aiming for another championship. And I just hope we meet each other in the tournament.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Pat should be respected for what she accomplished. 1098 wins is a helluva lot of wins. As far as doing it the right way, I'll defer to the NCAA infractions database, and leave it at that.

 

[ndmb]

Yes, this was definitely the Pat Summit we should remember ..... the coach who was capable of doing classy things and carried herself for the most part in exemplary manner

She had an incredible career..... and yes I agree with the premise that the game misses her..... that is Pat at her prime.... "Pat A" .... what she was in her letter years, "Pat B".... was a less likable shadow of what she had been.

As I have said before on this forum, I do not mind if the LV nation hates our program, our success, our coach..... and wants to publicize it.... is he arrogant, an idiot, classless, etc.... and more vile things that our former competitors down south have opined about him.... that is fine.... no harm no foul. but the untruths keep coming, with nothing to back anything up..... and lies and falsehoods really cross the line , especially for a storied program that (this will sound familiar) is always "classy" and "does things the right way". It is laughable.

Bottom line is, Pat herself always said it is all about "cutting down the nets".... And, after 30 years on the bench, Pat had an incredible 852 wins, and 5 national championships.

Out coach though 30 years has 918 wins and 10 national titles - twice as many - in a much more competitive era.

It is abundantly clear where the bright star of WCBB shines, and I take it in stride when we hear from one of the incessant PHS disciples point to Pat's sainthood.

TN fans are hoping to get to next year's Final Four. We at UConn are aiming for another championship. And I just hope we meet each other in the tournament.

8 National Championships

 

[CCinCT]

Unfortunately. Pat is (in this thread) often tarred with Ms Cornelius's filthy brush. Marie is the (im)moderator of The Summitt and for many years she has tolerated, even passively encouraged, a steady torrent of vile and despicable posts about Geno and the UConn Huskies. (VolNation is sustaining this tradition of x-rated vitriol.) You surely know that crap would not be permitted here. And by the way, haven't you felt comfortable posting here?

Kibitzer is correct - Just about anything goes when it pertains to UCONN. There are a few, I repeat, few sane posters, usually derided by the majority. Tenn has earned their current status. Isn't karma great ?

 

[DobbsRover2]

Pat was a very tough competitor and usually did a great job at getting her teams ready for the Tournament. She was also extremely "competitive" as a recruiter to the point of once she had established the program of using many over-the-top recruiting tactics especially in her special domain of the South and near Midwest. That some posters still try to proclaim that her 2006 attack on UConn through the NCAA investigation with the help of Maria and the Summitteers was based on Pat's early symptoms of Alzheimer's just amazes me. Right out of the book on Pat unless you are a Vol worshiper who ignores all the smashed clipboards and the aftergame practices following embarrassing losses.

As to Maria and her rule of the Checkerboard asylum for the criminally insane, a visit there was truly a jaw-dropping experience. And unless any UConn fans think that 99% of the invective was aimed at the Huskies and the coach they lovingly described in so many vicious ways and probably most colorfully by the "moderator" Maria, it is worth checking back through the bizarre statements and nasty attacks on Baylor's Brittney Griner who off the court and outside of her school's code represented an identity that was both kind of awkwardly championed by Maria and a band of orange cohorts but also the subject of indefensible comments from the usual Tenn crowd. A very strange mix.

But then again, when it came to anyone but the Lady Vols, the Summitt and to a certain extent now VolNation, much of the comments are indefensible.

 

[Bayareahusky]

8 National Championships

Our coach in 30 years at Storrs has 10 (ten) national championships.....

In her first 30 years at Tennessee, in a less competitive era, Pat was able to bring home 5 (five) titles.

Half as many. That is the ultimate measure.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Our coach in 30 years at Storrs has 10 (ten) national championships.....

In her first 30 years at Tennessee, in a less competitive era, Pat was able to bring home 5 (five) titles.

Half as many. That is the ultimate measure.

To be accurate, Pat won 6 NCAA titles from 1974-75 through 2003-04, so not half as much. And yes she could have won an AIAW title maybe, but why not start with the NCAA era to keep the nature of the title at least nominally on the same basis? Pat won 8 titles during her 27 or officially 28 years as head of UTenn during the NCAA era. Sure it's a rival coach to Husky fans, but fair is fair.

 

[ctchamps]

Look as far as I'm concerned I'd just like to forget all of this. I doubt there was ever a successful coach who didn't stretch the rules. Even Wooden's Bruins were rumored to have a sugar daddy booster who made life very nice for his players.

What sticks in my craw are the posts from those who treat Pat like she never farted while stating as fact that the UConn program is dirty. I know many tell me to just ignore them but my feeling is that when you allow lies and slanders to be repeated without rebutal it leads to them becoming accepted as truth.

To the vast majority of LV fans I know you don't share the vitriol of that small cadre of LV fans who insist on making this old rivalry a battle of good vs evil.

Rebut it and recognize many of us have universes we create for ourselves that no force will change. Just stay above it. Or let the hatred consume you. Can you tell I'm watching Star Wars!.

Liked your rebuttals btw.

 

[ndmb]

Our coach in 30 years at Storrs has 10 (ten) national championships.....

In her first 30 years at Tennessee, in a less competitive era, Pat was able to bring home 5 (five) titles.

Half as many. That is the ultimate measure.

I read too quickly, my bad.

 

[ctchamps]

You may have moved on...and I may have as well...in fact many have on both sides..but there are some on both sides that have not. I always try to be civil and give your program respect because that's what it deserves...your dig at our program above is taken with a gain of salt. I can take it. We'll be back...hopefully sooner than later...to challenge you guys again.

The fan versus the fanatic! Entertainment versus alter ego? Optional choice versus necessity? Balanced versus skewed? Worldly versus idolized?

My compliments to you. It isn't easy to absorb any negativity, real or not, exaggerated or accurate. Yet here you are. Observing the mirror image of vitriol that you refuse to pander to by wandering over to the Summit. Never been to the Summit myself but based on commentary I've observed here I gather there is primarily emotional discussions such as found in this thread as opposed to the more intellectual stuff normally found in this forum.

Personally I like these threads and the ones deriding Muffet and Vivien Stringer back in the days when she was relevant to UConn. But let me clarify.

These threads are honest even if they are uncomfortable. They expose that part of us we think we are above. But the spectrum of human behavior exists in all communities. How do you think people would react in this community if circumstance should occur that mirrors what happened to Tennessee with the "rise" of Geno and the "fall" of Pat? I imagine there would be some commonality. Anyways I hope Tennessee and UConn can both maintain bb prominence and one day get past the vitriol. It would be better for the sport. But based on these threads I can't imagine it happening in the near future.

 

[cabbie191]

First, for the record, I am no Pat fan, though wishing her only the best as she copes with an impossible medical situation. That said, it's easy to demonize her for the Maya complaints. Hell, I do it myself. But there is one thing that sticks in my mind that works against the whole Pat-as-evil thing, and I'd just like someone here to tell me whether I imagined it or not.

There was a UConn-TN championship that UConn won and, as I seem to recall, Pat went to the UConn locker room and asked to speak to the team and congratulate them. As much as I disliked her, I thought that was a very classy gesture from someone who certainly did not have to offer it. I remember that at the time, I was very impressed, if grudgingly.

Now my question is this: Did it happen and if so, how come no one ever gives her credit for doing something that IMHO very few coaches would do?

I'm glad you mentioned this - her visit to the locker room was on my mind. The reply further down the thread quoting Geno's response to the visit in the biography was new information for me, and I am disappointed to see that he was by 2002 already highly suspicious of Summitt. Makes me think that the precursors of the bad blood between them were already in play.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I would never say that Geno isn't respected that would be nonsense. I just see the praise of Pat as far stronger. Geno is often described as a love him or hate him figure. Pat is and has been and even more so now, looked as a perfect beam of light that never did wrong. Obviously she is an important figure in the game, I just think people think she is owed more than she is (like the sport wouldn't exist without her).

A lot of Pat's image has been rehabilitated in recent years by her illness, but there were plenty of references to to the more unsightly pieces of her behavior by the media in past years. Sure she was one of the top coaches and a pioneer of the sport, but not everyone in the WCBB world held that rosy a picture of her. Now of course there will not be any references to the ugly parts of her UTenn leadership since the announcement of the illness in 2011, and her place as the hallowed figure of early WCBB is pretty well set. But in fact there should be many names put up on the pedestal for the early years of WCBB growth, even though to the Summitteers only one name is really worth mentioning.

 

[ctfjr]

Let's keep everything in perspective. There is no doubt that Pat contributed much to wbb BUT. . . she was no saint (despite what might be read on other fan boards).

From an April 12, 2006 article by Barry Jacobs,
"Some within women's sports foresaw a similarly corrupt future once 1972 federal legislation forced universities to invest in creating equal athletic opportunity. Enhanced support under Title IX brought more scholarships and support, but the infusion of dollars doomed the lenient, honor-driven Association for Intercollegiate Athletics for Women (AIAW). Within a decade, the previously dismissive NCAA seized control, displaying the avarice of a Speaker of the House catching scent of a cash-rich lobbyist.

Base behavior was quickly rewarded. "A lot of women in this game are awfully naïve," lamented one basketball coach in 1979, "not only about how big it's gotten, but about each other." The University of Tennessee, soon a national power, was mockingly nicknamed the "University of Transfer" because Pat Head Summitt, the UT coach now revered in her sport, took advantage of AIAW rules to lure players from other programs to play immediately for her."

From a March 1978 SI article by Kent Hannon titled
Too Far, Too Fast Though Title IX was intended to enrich all women's college sports, the attention has gone to basketball. As a result, the game's unrestrained growth has burdened it with rules-flouting coaches and players who are transferring at will

"SECTION II. (A-1-b) of the AIAW Handbook: "An institution may not
offer inducement, gifts or any financial gain ... to a prospective
student-athlete, a member of her family and/or her coach."


ITEM: A member of the 1976 United States Olympic team who
transferred to Tennessee this season after playing for two years at
little Mercer University of Macon, Ga. has told of being offered an
assistant coach's job upon graduation as an enticement to leave
Mercer and play for the Lady Volunteers."

 

[Fiftyish]

Let's keep everything in perspective. There is no doubt that Pat contributed much to wbb BUT. . . she was no saint (despite what might be read on other fan boards).

Nice job on the research. So the halo may not fit.

 

[Geno-ista]

Anyone who doesn't understand what Pat Summitt has done for Womens college basketball is a fool. Plain and simple. I attribute the Maya Moore fiasco to her early stages of alzheimers and quite frankly the realization that she was being surpassed by a wise-assed, male, Yankee coach. To let her illness and/or vanity late in her career cloud what she did for the sport is silly. She should be held in the highest esteem just as Geno should.

All true- but it doesn't legitimize the trash in that article, the quotes by Muffet, etc...
That article is pure garbage - how pathetic.

 

[JellyBean]

As objective as Pat Buchanan writing about Ronald Reagan.

LOL!!! I like that

 

[Uhuru]

Cornelius is doing what any individual, organization, whatever, does when you're not the lead dog. When you can't raise your status to that of the lead dog, you try to disparage the lead dog by whatever means possible to bring them down to your level.

Knoxville is in crisis. This kind of childish behavior is all that this hack and the lemming-like followers at UT have. Let them have this.

 

[Tonyc]

There are some of us who lived through 1995 to the present. We all have heard the stories and they aren't pretty. The truth behind the stories are ugly. I wish it could come out. But much like when Doggy Daddy tried to come out with things he had heard in a secret discussion and was jumped on by Maria and her trying to get the FBI involved well its not worth it.

Doing things the right way....is bull. Its all ugly. I wish some of us who were around from 1995 who know what was going on could write a book. It wouldn't be pretty.

 

[j66kicker]

There are some of us who lived through 1995 to the present. We all have heard the stories and they aren't pretty. The truth behind the stories are ugly. I wish it could come out. But much like when Doggy Daddy tried to come out with things he had heard in a secret discussion and was jumped on by Maria and her trying to get the FBI involved well its not worth it.

Doing things the right way....is bull. Its all ugly. I wish some of us who were around from 1995 who know what was going on could write a book. It wouldn't be pretty.

I'll buy the book. You should write the book. You'll be a celeb! I'll come to a book signing event (You might want to avoid Knoxville on the book signing circuit). Seriously - do it!

 

[DaddyChoc]

I'm glad you mentioned this - her visit to the locker room was on my mind. The reply further down the thread quoting Geno's response to the visit in the biography was new information for me, and I am disappointed to see that he was by 2002 already highly suspicious of Summitt. Makes me think that the precursors of the bad blood between them were already in play.

I think that's a personal flaw of his... could have started from anywhere. Someone giving you praise and the first thing you think, its suspicious.

 

[UcMiami]

I think that's a personal flaw of his... could have started from anywhere. Someone giving you praise and the first thing you think, its suspicious.

DC - I think that misses the nature of most teams and the sanctity of their locker room when the door is closed. Most coaches have meetings on the court in a circle and have their little speech about the circle, and everything inside the circle matters and everything outside that circle is extraneous and of no importance. That gets extended to the 'court' and what happens between the lines vs. what happens outside the lines. And the locker room is the home of that circle. So granting admission to that place for media is a necessary evil and part of the rules - but when the door is not open, only insiders are allowed. Pat's request is not without precedence, but it is very unusual and has never been an easy thing for any coach to grant to an opponent, even after a win. Its like inviting a business rival to family dinner.

On Saint Pat vs, Evil Geno - Pat is gone from the game, and lost to a terrible disease. You not get honest reflection on the failings of the recently departed at funerals nor honest assessments of important people immediately after they leave the stage - it takes time and distance to get to that place. And you never get sainthood while you are alive and working at your craft in a competitive field. At the moment, people are in mourning for a still living but diseased Pat and in general no one wants to examine her warts. And Geno is very much at the top of his game and creating conflict and jealousy and whatever else. In twenty years you will get more perspective on both coaches, and in fifty years you will probably get a pretty honest picture of both and their place in basketball, their strengths and weaknesses. Expecting that now is foolish.

All that said, the author seems to be a poisonous person - and I agree, while Uconn and Geno are enemy number one on the checkerboard, that board is just as spiteful and nasty and ugly about any coaches, players, and teams that dare to compete in TN's personal arena of WCBB. And sometimes just as nasty and ugly about their own players that disappoint! Rumor and inuendo are stock in trade. This column is really dreadful and a waste of the bits required to create it, and display it on a computer.

 

[Goodgood]

I think that's a personal flaw of his... could have started from anywhere. Someone giving you praise and the first thing you think, its suspicious.

Perhaps he knew more of what she was capable of doing outside of the public view. He was surprised and had no idea where that was coming from, and knowing her as well as he did, he thought the gesture was unusual...

Not defending his reaction, we should know by now that he is not always a PC person and says what he thinks and not what he should say...

 

[DobbsRover2]

DC - I think that misses the nature of most teams and the sanctity of their locker room when the door is closed. Most coaches have meetings on the court in a circle and have their little speech about the circle, and everything inside the circle matters and everything outside that circle is extraneous and of no importance. That gets extended to the 'court' and what happens between the lines vs. what happens outside the lines. And the locker room is the home of that circle. So granting admission to that place for media is a necessary evil and part of the rules - but when the door is not open, only insiders are allowed. Pat's request is not without precedence, but it is very unusual and has never been an easy thing for any coach to grant to an opponent, even after a win. Its like inviting a business rival to family dinner.

On Saint Pat vs, Evil Geno - Pat is gone from the game, and lost to a terrible disease. You not get honest reflection on the failings of the recently departed at funerals nor honest assessments of important people immediately after they leave the stage - it takes time and distance to get to that place. And you never get sainthood while you are alive and working at your craft in a competitive field. At the moment, people are in mourning for a still living but diseased Pat and in general no one wants to examine her warts. And Geno is very much at the top of his game and creating conflict and jealousy and whatever else. In twenty years you will get more perspective on both coaches, and in fifty years you will probably get a pretty honest picture of both and their place in basketball, their strengths and weaknesses. Expecting that now is foolish.

All that said, the author seems to be a poisonous person - and I agree, while Uconn and Geno are enemy number one on the checkerboard, that board is just as spiteful and nasty and ugly about any coaches, players, and teams that dare to compete in TN's personal arena of WCBB. And sometimes just as nasty and ugly about their own players that disappoint! Rumor and inuendo are stock in trade. This column is really dreadful and a waste of the bits required to create it, and display it on a computer.

Indeed, going into the opponent's locker room even with some kind of permission from assistant coaches is not usual, something that has never had a ghost of a tradition for many obvious reasons. If you want to congratulate the other team, do it on the court where the battle took place. Ask the opposing coach if after the handshake line that you can have another little gathering on the spot to give your kudos to the players in front of their coach in public where everything can be heard. You supposedly have nothing to hide about what you are saying, so why not say it right there, or say it at the press conference? There is no reason to make up your own little event and get more attention for yourself.

As to what being suspicious of this extra spotlighting says about Geno, to me it is the normal reaction, and the abnormal reaction is to claim that he is maybe being paranoid and ungracious that Pat walked into his locker room while he was gone. Beyond the obvious situation that the Huskies may have some information marked up on the board that Pat really shouldn't be seeing, there are all the other questions that could be asked in light of what Pat would do to UConn in later years (Yes, yes, we have been told that any obnoxious thing Pat did was caused by early signs of her disease, I suppose even when she was stealing players from other teams back in the 1970s.)

Q1: There's still an NC game to be played. Do you want an opposing coach in your locker room perhaps in some way either knowingly or unknowingly affecting your team's play two nights later? We do not really know what Pat said, but an overly congratulatory type "you have shown yourselves to be unbeatable" remark would not be what Geno wanted said. After a big effort and a big win, the locker room is considered a sanctuary for kicking back and celebrating and relaxing with your teammates, and the opposing coach has no place there. Even if Pat's talk was 100% respectful, there are certainly many other situations where an opposing coach would let loose with a "you got the calls tonight" or "you held my star all night" that would be an upsetting damper on the occasion.

Q2: Quite simply, Pat was usurping the position that the winning coach has of addressing his team after a big win. It is his right as the UConn coach to be the first and last conveyor of the message that the team takes out of the locker room. It is hardly being "suspicious" to have some big concerns that a coach decided to butt her way into your team's victory celebration while you are off talking to the press. It's an unusual potentially disruptive event that can easily upset the dynamics for a team.

Q3: Was Pat just using her talk to teach a lesson to her own team? She was highly upset with the Vols' play for much of the game, so rather than rejoin her team in the locker room for a period was she using the appearance in the locker room to tell her team how disappointed she was in them? Was this a precursor of the post Ball State game extended practice in 2009 that she used to send her message? If so, why should the Huskies be involved in the act?

There's a good reason why the visits to the opposing team's locker room are very very very rare except perhaps when an injury and maybe an apology is involved. And there is good reason to be suspicious that the "32-page peeve Pat" was being just a gracious loser in 2002.