Duke Rumor about Coach P

[CamrnCrz1974]

This forum, for the most part, has never been keen on Coach McCallie, but it is difficult for me to believe that the Duke athletic administration is dissatisfied with a women's basketball program that, for the past seven seasons under Coach McCallie, has won no less than 25 games, has won at least 30 games three times, has been to the Elite 8 four times, and has won the ACC Tournament as the #1 seed three times.

As an initial point, this forum was very high on Coach P in her first few seasons at Duke. First, there was a "respect" factor, since she defeated UConn while at Michigan State. Second, she was pretty open about sharing a common Italian heritage with Geno. Third, she made a conscious choice to only play UConn and to discontinue any series with Tennessee.

Second, the conundrum Duke faces is this - how does one "get rid of" (fire or buy out) a coach with the credentials you set forth? On paper, she is a resounding success. Those numbers look great. But compared to her predecessor, Coach P falls significantly short.

Before this season, I compared Goestenkors' last seven years at Duke with McCallie's first seven years with the Blue Devils (2014-2015 is her eighth season at the helm of DWB):

Overall record:
Goestenkors: 220-25 (89.79 percent)
McCallie: 199-41 (82.92 percent)

NCAA record:
Goestenkors: 23-7 (one NCAA runner-up, three Final Fours, five years at least making the Elite eight, all seven years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 16-7 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, five years at least making the Sweet 16, two second round losses)

Against UConn:
Goestenkors: 2-2 (2-2 for her career; 2-1 against UConn over her last seven years)
McCallie: 0-7 (and only one loss was less than 22 points)

Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 14-13 (51.85 percent)
McCallie: 7-21 (25.00 percent)

Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 25-13 (65.79 percent)
McCallie: 18-23 (43.90 percent)


When factoring in this season, McCallie's record at Duke against Top 5 opponents is now 7-24 (22.5 percent). Against Top 10 opponents, it is now 20-28 (41.67 percent).

 

[VAUConnFan]

CamrnCrz1974 makes outstanding points. But is a comparison to one's predecessor a valid criteria for an early contract buyout? How, then, is anyone going to survive at UConn once Coach Auriemma leaves?

It is fair to say that the Duke women's program was never better than they were in Coach Goestenkors' last seven seasons. It is also fair to say that if a good team was going to beat UConn, their best chances were between 2005-2007 inclusive.

Coach McCallie has never coached a Wade Trophy caliber player that could take over big games. She has had good players and good teams and it is naturally fair to question whether another coach could have done better.

Coach Goestenkors, by rights, should be 0-4 against UConn. Duke won the 2004 game in Connecticut on a last second three when UConn, inexplicably, did not pressure the ball after Taurasi banked in the floater from the right side to put them up with less than ten seconds remaining. Duke won the Elite 8 game in Bridgeport despite shooting 29%. How in the world is UConn supposed to lose a game when they hold an opponent under 30%, Charde Houston's short miss on the baseline not withstanding; Houston ended up 0-5 and was never the same after that, Renee Montgomery was 6-16, and Ann Strother was 1-6. Still, UConn shot 40% and should have won that game.
To be fair, Coach Goestenkors was two Lindsey Harding missed free throws away from getting to a fourth Final Four.

If Duke was going to consider buying out Coach McCallie's contract, the time to do it was after losing as a #2 seed to 7th seeded DePaul in last year's tournament, a game Duke lost despite outshooting and outrebounding DePaul. Duke, in fact, has actually played increasingly better in their last three NCAA losses if that makes any sense; Losses neverthess.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

VAU...actually, Goestenkors did make four Final Fours, but the fourth appearance was outside the seven-year comparison window I was using.

Duke has had more top five players and top ten and more All Americans (high school) under McCallie than Goestenkors. But she has not coached them up or worked with them to improve individual skillsets the way her predecessor did.

 

[bballnut90]

CamrnCrz1974 makes outstanding points. But is a comparison to one's predecessor a valid criteria for an early contract buyout? How, then, is anyone going to survive at UConn once Coach Auriemma leaves?

It is fair to say that the Duke women's program was never better than they were in Coach Goestenkors' last seven seasons. It is also fair to say that if a good team was going to beat UConn, their best chances were between 2005-2007 inclusive.

Coach McCallie has never coached a Wade Trophy caliber player that could take over big games. She has had good players and good teams and it is naturally fair to question whether another coach could have done better.

Coach Goestenkors, by rights, should be 0-4 against UConn. Duke won the 2004 game in Connecticut on a last second three when UConn, inexplicably, did not pressure the ball after Taurasi banked in the floater from the right side to put them up with less than ten seconds remaining. Duke won the Elite 8 game in Bridgeport despite shooting 29%. How in the world is UConn supposed to lose a game when they hold an opponent under 30%, Charde Houston's short miss on the baseline not withstanding; Houston ended up 0-5 and was never the same after that, Renee Montgomery was 6-16, and Ann Strother was 1-6. Still, UConn shot 40% and should have won that game.
To be fair, Coach Goestenkors was two Lindsey Harding missed free throws away from getting to a fourth Final Four.

If Duke was going to consider buying out Coach McCallie's contract, the time to do it was after losing as a #2 seed to 7th seeded DePaul in last year's tournament, a game Duke lost despite outshooting and outrebounding DePaul. Duke, in fact, has actually played increasingly better in their last three NCAA losses if that makes any sense; Losses neverthess.

The difference is, Duke was never close to the level of dominance that UCONN has found under Geno. Under Gail, they were a consistent Final Four favorite and a title threat most years, even if Gail couldn't bring home the title. She did a great job recruiting and put together some very strong teams. Outside of Tennessee/UCONN, Duke was easily the strongest team in WCBB from 1999-2007. Duke was dominant and a scary team to face in March. It was a surprise in 2007, 2004 and 2001 when they were upset in the regional and didn't play in the Final Four.

Gail left Duke in a great position. The came off a 32-2 season, had an outstanding player in Waner returning (she was phenomenal as a sophomore), Chante Black was set to return after a year off, 2 top 10 kids were coming in, and the rest of the lineup was littered with McDonald's All-Americans. Since then, Coach P has done an outstanding job recruiting, but has never made Duke into a Final Four favorite or championship threat like Gail did. After several seasons of Final Four appearances and near championships, Duke has consistently under performed throughout the regular season and post season. Even when they've won against ranked teams, it has never been impressive to watch. They had a Wade Trophy caliber player in Elizabeth Williams, who was outstanding as a freshman and hasn't developed. Chelsea Gray is another player who could have won multiple 1st Team All-American awards had she stayed healthy. Waner looked like she had the ability to develop into a perennial All American under Coach G. Jasmine Thomas was an incredibly athletic and talented player who has since started in the WNBA Finals. They have had the horses and talent to at least make the Final Four.

They've had plausible reasons for their inability to make the Final Four, but Duke has never surprised anybody or pulled off an upset. Every game they are expected to lose, they lose. Games they are expected to win they usually win, and sometimes lose. Under Gail they:
-pulled off one of the biggest upsets in NCAA history when they gave Chamique Holdsclaw her only NCAA tournament loss
-Beat UCONN in Storrs in 2004 ending UCONN's home winning streak
-Slaughtered Tennessee in 2003 and 2006
-Beat them again in 2005 and 2007, both times in TBA. Tennessee went on to win the title in 2007 and made the Final Four in 05
-Beat UCONN in Connecticut during the NCAA tournament. Not sure anyone else has accomplished this
-Slaughtered LSU in 2006 when LSU had Fowles and Augustus
-Thumped eventual title runner up Rutgers by 40 in 2007

All of these are examples of wins that are superior to Coach P's most impressive victory. Tennessee's stellar 2008 graduating class went 0-3 against Goestenkors. Under P, Duke is consistently good, but not great, which is under performing considering how much talent Duke has assimilated every year and how solid of a position Gail Goestenkors left Duke in.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Nice remarks by Cam and VAUConn fan!

Duke's record against the top teams is the biggest problem to me.

Yes, JPM's Michigan State beat UConn, but so did Rutgers, ASU, ND, and Tennessee. Plus USF took us to OT. It was, frankly, the weakest UConn team in 2 decades.

Courtney Banghart at Duke almost scares me. The university has lots of recruiting advantages. I think she can make Duke into UConn's primary competition. I think they can surpass ND.

 

[triaddukefan]

If Duke was going to consider buying out Coach McCallie's contract, the time to do it was after losing as a #2 seed to 7th seeded DePaul in last year's tournament, a game Duke lost despite outshooting and outrebounding DePaul. Duke, in fact, has actually played increasingly better in their last three NCAA losses if that makes any sense; Losses neverthess.

No way they would fire McCallie after that loss ... Duke was down 2 all-american type PG's..... plus a senior backup PG......

 

[msf22b]

It has become increasingly clear that Joanne significantly under-develops the fine talent that she recruits.
And is a public relations nightmare with her inane post-game comments and her striking inability
to accept any responsibility for adversity.

She has become an embarrassment to a splendid University and it is not surprising that they are looking to the exits (if indeed they are).

 

[Zorro]

And if indeed they are not then indeed they damned well should be!

 

[MilfordHusky]

Hello!! You play to win the game!

Sometimes, Herm is crazy intense, but as an Eagles fan, I still like him. Any Giants' fans remember the "Miracle of the Meadowlands" play involving Herm, Pisarcek, and Csonka? I think it's probably known as something else in New York. Everytime you see a QB take a knee to run out the clock, THAT play is the reason.

 

[Striper69]

YOU HAVE TO! I can't stress that enough. Key for player confidence.

The example I referred to is him telling how he dealt with criticism he'd give to players in practices. He said he'd always give them praise (I misquoted him) after criticism. He said "after all it was a game" and he wanted them to enjoy coming to practice.
Bill Walton said he didn't say anything after games and I don't remember them showing any post game conferences although I watched a lot of their games on TV. I was very young then though.

 

[Geno-ista]

I have seen a number of comments on Duke boards referring "the incident" with Calhoun and stating that "this kind of stuff" has been going on for a time and the powers that be at Duke were aware of it. The fact is that her public verbal abuse of her players is a severe and ongoing embarassment to the university and it doesn't take much imagination to imagine what her treatemtn of them in practice must be like. Not good for Duke's image. At all.

Yes The Duke administration wouldn't want to ruin their image, especially after the way they and hundreds of professors, who signed the petition to throw the lacrosse team under the bus , before any of the allegations were remotely confirmed! They have quite a track record to uphold!

 

[CocoHusky]

Sometimes, Herm is crazy intense, but as an Eagles fan, I still like him. Any Giants' fans remember the "Miracle of the Meadowlands" play involving Herm, Pisarcek, and Csonka? I think it's probably known as something else in New York. Everytime you see a QB take a knee to run out the clock, THAT play is the reason.

Ironically the NFL is thinking about changing QB taking a knee. Under the new proposal the team that is ahead "must" make an attempt to advance the ball.

 

[BlueDevils]

I have seen a number of comments on Duke boards referring "the incident" with Calhoun and stating that "this kind of stuff" has been going on for a time and the powers that be at Duke were aware of it. The fact is that her public verbal abuse of her players is a severe and ongoing embarassment to the university and it doesn't take much imagination to imagine what her treatemtn of them in practice must be like. Not good for Duke's image. At all.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about lol. Many people on the Duke boards blamed Sierra leaving because our coach can't utilize her talents. I'm just curious on where your quotes came from. Link maybe?

 

[malevocalist#]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about lol. Many people on the Duke boards blamed Sierra leaving because our coach can't utilize her talents. I'm just curious on where your quotes came from. Link maybe?

Can't utilize her talent? what happen to patients? She's only a freshman. Ainnit?

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

If Duke gets rid of Coach P, I won't be able to report on her coaching when we play them in Columbia next season. I will get to report on Geno up close, though.

 

[hjoerring]

This is all about Uconn's fans. I doubt other fans- including Duke- follow coach P so closely as we do. Our dislike of this person goes well beyond the expected. If I had time I would count the number of posts having her as a main theme or, ones plugging her in for this or that reason. D

 

[HuskyNan]

The Duke success is notable, and most schools would be thrilled with those results, but ...

It pales relative to the Duke men, who play in a much more competitive environment.

It is a poorer record than that of Gail, who made it to multiple Final Fours.

It is disappointing given that they have had top 2-3 talent on paper since JPM arrived.

Several assistants and players appear to have bailed.

JPM has never, to my knowledge, accepted any responsibility. Instead, she repeatedly blamed the players--the players recruited and coached by her.

Plus she keeps making lame statements about "learning," but she doesn't put that knowledge to use.

I'm not saying she's a bad coach, but I think she's underperforming, and her ceiling is lower than Duke probably wants.

JPM has coached her team to approximately 50% winning average over Top 10 teams and about a 30% winning average over teams in the Top 5. JPM has never come close to scaring UConn while Gail G had 2 wins over the Huskies - in Connecticut.

 

[Buzzyboy]

It is also difficult believing that Duke would be willing to offer a buyout on a contract with four years still remaining on a contract that was just extended two years ago.

I didn't realize she had been extended as recently as that. I think if they were content enough with her performance two years ago to extend her contract, little has happened since then to make them suddenly dissatisfied enough to buy her out. She continues to win games and have success though not nearly the success you'd expect with their talent level. I do agree some of the postgame remarks are reminiscent of Casey or maybe even Yogi!

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

The difference is, Duke was never close to the level of dominance that UCONN has found under Geno. Under Gail, they were a consistent Final Four favorite and a title threat most years, even if Gail couldn't bring home the title. She did a great job recruiting and put together some very strong teams. Outside of Tennessee/UCONN, Duke was easily the strongest team in WCBB from 1999-2007. Duke was dominant and a scary team to face in March. It was a surprise in 2007, 2004 and 2001 when they were upset in the regional and didn't play in the Final Four.

bballnut90 had such a great post. I am going to respond in a few threads (every person who reads my posts on The Boneyard knows that I cannot possibly be succinct or brief with my comments...LOL).

In 2004, Duke faced 7th seeded Minnesota, severely underseeded because of Whalen's injury in the middle of the season. But while that team was very deep, it was not the best three-point shooting team among the starting lineup. And Harding and Beard could not contain Whalen that night.

In 2007, it was the rumors about Goestenkors and Texas. Duke beat Rutgers by 40 points in the regular season, but lose at the end of the game by one point after Lindsey Harding missed two free throws. The media speculation about Gail replacing Conradt was constant, and it really impacted the team. And the irony of the situation is that Duke is now facing a similar situation (though not to the same degree) with the discussions about McCallie. But Duke should have won that game.

As an aside, I have had many off-the-record discussions with WCBB journalists and insiders. The 2007 game only fueled the fire about "the Duke kid." Basically, the buzz is that Duke recruits certain types of kids - smart, good basketball players, and nice...but that lack the killer instinct. Whereas these same insiders say that UConn's kids would die for Geno (figuratively, of course) and would do whatever he said and whatever it took to bring home the hardware, the Duke kids do not have the same killer instinct, absent a few exceptions (e.g., Monique Currie).

This last paragraph was not really responsive to bballnut90's post, but I thought it was an interesting observation made by several insiders. And that was back in 2007. I do not believe that anything has changed in the ensuing eight years.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Gail left Duke in a great position. The came off a 32-2 season, had an outstanding player in Waner returning (she was phenomenal as a sophomore), Chante Black was set to return after a year off, 2 top 10 kids were coming in, and the rest of the lineup was littered with McDonald's All-Americans. Since then, Coach P has done an outstanding job recruiting, but has never made Duke into a Final Four favorite or championship threat like Gail did.

Absolutely correct. When McCallie took over, she inherited a roster with eight McDonald's All-Americans (Wanisha Smith, Chante Black, Carrem Gay, Abby Waner, Joy Cheek, Bridgette Mitchell, Jasmine Thomas, and Krystal Thomas). And in that first year, Duke had ten losses. In the next year, Duke had seven McDonald's All Americans and a good regular season (good enough to earn a #1 seed), but lost in the second round of the tournament.

With the 2010 recruiting class, McCallie started an unprecedented run of top five recruiting classes at Duke. And not just top five...#1 and #2 classes. There have been more high school All-Americans at Duke than at any point in school history. But the recruited talent never seems to live up to the expectations. Duke has four Elite Eights in eight years of the McCallie era (this is her eighth year), but three of those losses have been by double digits and in two of the games, Duke scored in the 40s.

Interestingly enough, McCallie repeatedly told people that Goestenkors "left [her] with no talent" on the roster. In recent years, including this year, she has said that Duke's lack of postseason results was because other teams had better players and more talent. First, it is not true, if you look at high school recruiting rankings, All-Americans, and other accolades. Second, even if it were true, it is her job to recruit the best possible players.

 

[wes33]

Absolutely correct. When McCallie took over, she inherited a roster with eight McDonald's All-Americans (Wanisha Smith, Chante Black, Carrem Gay, Abby Waner, Joy Cheek, Bridgette Mitchell, Jasmine Thomas, and Krystal Thomas). And in that first year, Duke had ten losses. In the next year, Duke had seven McDonald's All Americans and a good regular season (good enough to earn a #1 seed), but lost in the second round of the tournament.

With the 2010 recruiting class, McCallie started an unprecedented run of top five recruiting classes at Duke. And not just top five...#1 and #2 classes. There have been more high school All-Americans at Duke than at any point in school history. But the recruited talent never seems to live up to the expectations. Duke has four Elite Eights in eight years of the McCallie era (this is her eighth year), but three of those losses have been by double digits and in two of the games, Duke scored in the 40s.

Interestingly enough, McCallie repeatedly told people that Goestenkors "left [her] with no talent" on the roster. In recent years, including this year, she has said that Duke's lack of postseason results was because other teams had better players and more talent. First, it is not true, if you look at high school recruiting rankings, All-Americans, and other accolades. Second, even if it were true, it is her job to recruit the best possible players.

The chances are much better for a extended contract than cutting her lose at this time
in my opinion. If she was cut it would be difficult for some on the Duke board that have
become so obsessed with coach P and would have a lot of trouble in the transition back to
a sports board.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Waner looked like she had the ability to develop into a perennial All American under Coach G. Jasmine Thomas was an incredibly athletic and talented player who has since started in the WNBA Finals. They have had the horses and talent to at least make the Final Four.

Abby Waner, under Goestenkors (two years):
11.4 points, 3.4 rebounds, 3.0 assists, and 2.17 steals per game, 45.8 percent from the floor, 37.0 percent from three.

Abby Waner, under Goestenkors (sophomore year, after Currie, Foley, and Bass graduated):
14.1 points, 4.4 rebounds, 2.7 assists, and 2.5 steals per game, 46 percent from the floor, 36.2 percent from three - and the leading scorer on a team that went through the regular season undefeated

Abby Waner, under McCallie (two years):
10.03 points, 3.39 rebounds, 3.67 assists, and 2.65 steals per game, 33.1 percent from the floor, 28.1 percent from three,

In her four years under McCallie, Jasmine Thomas shot 37.6 percent from the floor and never had a season over 40 percent. These are overall percentages, not from three.

Remember, Jasmine Thomas came in as a "Lindsey Harding-type" and was coming in as a replacement for Harding (Thomas was the high school class of 2007; Harding's last year at Duke was 2006-2007).

This is what Lindsey Harding did at Duke:
2002-2003: 43.8 percent from the floor, 7.7 percent from three
2003-2004: 45.9 percent from the floor, 24.1 percent from three
2005-2006: 48.1 percent from the floor, 41.1 percent from three
2006-2007: 44.4 percent from the floor, 38.1 percent from three

Notice the improvement in Harding's shooting under Goestenkors, while Thomas, under McCallie for four years, could not crack 40 percent for any season in terms of overall shooting while at Duke.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

They've had plausible reasons for their inability to make the Final Four, but Duke has never surprised anybody or pulled off an upset. Every game they are expected to lose, they lose. Games they are expected to win they usually win, and sometimes lose.

Under Gail they:
-pulled off one of the biggest upsets in NCAA history when they gave Chamique Holdsclaw her only NCAA tournament loss
-Beat UCONN in Storrs in 2004 ending UCONN's home winning streak
-Slaughtered Tennessee in 2003 and 2006
-Beat them again in 2005 and 2007, both times in TBA. Tennessee went on to win the title in 2007 and made the Final Four in 05
-Beat UCONN in Connecticut during the NCAA tournament. Not sure anyone else has accomplished this
-Slaughtered LSU in 2006 when LSU had Fowles and Augustus
-Thumped eventual title runner up Rutgers by 40 in 2007

All of these are examples of wins that are superior to Coach P's most impressive victory. Tennessee's stellar 2008 graduating class went 0-3 against Goestenkors.

Under P, Duke is consistently good, but not great, which is under performing considering how much talent Duke has assimilated every year and how solid of a position Gail Goestenkors left Duke in.

Many people associate Goestenkors with the "deer in headlights" phrase. She had that look in the 2003 game against UConn in Cameron. Duke was getting blown out by 28 points. Under McCallie, the game was over. Under Gail, however, the lead was only 6 points with one minute remaining, before free throws made the difference in the final margin.

Goestenkors went 2-2 against Geno, with both wins in the State of Connecticut (2004 and 2006).

Goestenkors went 5-4 against Tennessee, winning all games played in Knoxville and going 3-0 against the Parker/Anosike/Hornbuckle/Fuller recruiting class (and with two of those wins on Tennessee's home floor).

After the 2002-2003 season (covering 2003-2004 through 2006-2007), Goestenkors had a combined record of 5-1 record against Pat Summitt and Geno Auriemma. Not many people can say that (especially since both UConn, in 2004, and Tennessee, in 2007, won national titles during this time frame).

If you look at Goestenkors in the Alana Beard years (Final Fours in 2002 and 2003), you can see the "deer in the headlights" in a few games. If you look after Beard graduated, you will see how much Goestenkors improved as a coach, how different the offensive schemes were, and how much of a better leader and tactician she was.

 

[Zorro]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about lol. Many people on the Duke boards blamed Sierra leaving because our coach can't utilize her talents. I'm just curious on where your quotes came from. Link maybe?

Yeah. They were on the women's version of the Duke Basketball Report. I can't give you the name of the posters because I always have the helluva time finding that board amonst all the Duke men's boards and the url I had saved seems not to be there any more. I think maybe there were also some comments to that effect on the DD, but can't swear to it. I did NOT make it up. There was nothing specific, only some pretty strong refereces to her mis-treatment of her players.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Charlie Creme has USF in Duke's bracket, that's a matchup if I'm Duke I don't want to seee. Courtney Williams would own Duke's guards.