Discouraging, But you Never Can Tell...

[Sea Goat]

I'm cool with that.

Hardly any FSU fans are really ACC guys....it is just a place to play.

That's more like it!

IMO, the best fit for FSU is the SEC. I would love the "close" away game schedule - eg. Gainesville, Athens, Tuscaloosa, Baton Rouge, Columbia, Nashville, Oxford, Knoxville - all doable via car and great venues to boot.

 

[buckaineer]

ND wants neutral site games and ACC schools are happy to play neutral site games for their home portion of playing Notre Dame. Of course ND won't play in Chicago or Indianapolis or St. Louis when its time to have the ACC teams play them. It's a one way street that fans of the old Big East know too well.

 

[buckaineer]

That's more like it!

IMO, the best fit for FSU is the SEC. I would love the "close" away game schedule - eg. Gainesville, Athens, Tuscaloosa, Baton Rouge, Columbia, Nashville, Oxford, Knoxville - all doable via car and great venues to boot.

Unfortunately, the SEC doesn't gain anything from an FSU addition.

 

[06029]

ND wants neutral site games and ACC schools are happy to play neutral site games for their home portion of playing Notre Dame. Of course ND won't play in Chicago or Indianapolis or St. Louis when its time to have the ACC teams play them. It's a one way street that fans of the old Big East know too well.

You are flat out wrong on this point. ND plays the ACC teams as the visitor where the home team wants to play. All of the neutral site games in the past and going forward for ND (except for Cuse) have been part of their Shamrock Series where ND is the home team and controls the gate and the TV. UNC, Duke, NC State, FSU, Pitt, Miami, VT, BC, Wake, etc. will all play ND in their home stadiums. Alternate venues are not happening. While Cuse may choose to move games as part of their NY Team initiative, that is their choice and they are doing it because of their own economic motivations or because of a previous contract.
http://www.mike-nd.com/sched-f.htm

 

[buckaineer]

You are flat out wrong on this point. ND plays the ACC teams as the visitor where the home team wants to play. All of the neutral site games in the past and going forward for ND (except for Cuse) have been part of their Shamrock Series where ND is the home team and controls the gate and the TV. UNC, Duke, NC State, FSU, Pitt, Miami, VT, BC, Wake, etc. will all play ND in their home stadiums. Alternate venues are not happening. While Cuse may choose to move games as part of their NY Team initiative, that is their choice and they are doing it because of their own economic motivations or because of a previous contract.
http://www.mike-nd.com/sched-f.htm

Syracuse will play ND away from home. They had decided to play some games in NYC, they hadn't decided the games were to be ND games originally. BC fairly recently agreed to play ND games away from home at Fenway--just this past December. This is ND's desire as it was when the Big East attempted to schedule ND games. Home games for ND, away games for the partial conference opponent. There are likely to be more moves like this with some of the programs when its ND's turn to go to the opponents home field.

 

[frankthetank]

Agreed. ND will try to remain as independent in football for as long as possible ( but with half its schedule made up each year of ACC football teams). ND's decision to accept the invite of the Hockey East league over that of the new BIG 10 Hockey League pretty much shows where they will put their football program fully some day, and it most certainly won't be the Big 10. If and when ND comes in to the ACC, my guess then the ACC will then vote immediately on bringing in Uconn or Cincy ( or the football winner of the AAC most years ) to make it 16.

I've been a defender of the ACC for the most part over the past couple of years (and I've been criticized by many of my Big Ten brethren when I've done so), but the hubris that I've been seeing from many ACC fans lately is laughable. They're doing the same thing that the delusional Big 12 fans did last year (when they were dreaming of poaching Florida State and Clemson), only now it's about Notre Dame joining as a full member. Both the ACC and Big 12 fans have mistaken *survival* (as a result of key schools like UNC and Texas choosing to stay where they are) for strength (which only the Big Ten and SEC really have by comparison, while the Pac-12 is protected by geography). When you lose schools to other conferences, you have some type of underlying problem. Period. No revisionist history about what the value of Maryland might be or how the newcomers will supposedly be stronger changes that. Maybe the problem isn't quite as severe across the board (I think the Big 12 is a heck of a lot more vulnerable long-term than the ACC, for instance), but there are definitely issues if that occurs.

At the same time, the suggestion that the Big Ten offered Notre Dame hockey membership is patently, 110%, completely and unambiguously FALSE. The Big Ten (unlike the ACC) hasn't offered Notre Dame any type of partial membership at any level and NEVER will. Even in the message board world, I don't see many outright lies that often, but the thought that ND could have ever joined the Big Ten for hockey without joining for football and all other sports is absolutely a lie.

This lie doesn't even make sense for the conspiracy theorists/rumor mongers out there. The Big Ten had 5 hockey playing schools for decades upon decades when inviting 1 other hockey-playing school (whether it was ND or someone else) would have allowed it to form a hockey league. *That* would have been the time for the Big Ten to invite ND for hockey. However, the Big Ten chose to wait decades upon decades and didn't form a league until another full member (Penn State) created a hockey program. So, why the heck would the Big Ten suddenly want to invite ND (or anyone else) *now*? That makes no sense.

To be sure, I don't blame the ACC for granting ND a partial membership. In fact, it will likely work out fine for both parties. Getting ND to play 5 ACC opponents per year (assuming they live up to that bargain) honestly isn't a bad deal. However, do NOT mistake this partial membership as any indication whatsoever that ND is going to join as a full member down the road. ND did this because they would take a partial membership *anywhere* before choosing to join a conference as a football member. If the ACC wanted to push ND, the Irish would just propose the same partial membership arrangement with the Big 12 (who has already offered it) or, worst case, go back and play basketball with its old Catholic buddies in the new Big East and keep on trucking along with football independence. I know it still sounds crazy to 99% of college football fans, but independence in and of itself is what matters to Domers - it can't be emphasized enough how important that is (and with the Big 12 and Big East sitting there as non-football options, their alums will not accept the notion that there aren't alternatives to joining the ACC full-time).

Any ACC fan that believes that ND would join as a football member would probably also believe that the ACC could reverse-raid the Big Ten, and anyone that believes that has to be automatically discounted as having any understanding of the overall conference realignment landscape and pecking order.

 

[TerryD]

ND wants neutral site games and ACC schools are happy to play neutral site games for their home portion of playing Notre Dame. Of course ND won't play in Chicago or Indianapolis or St. Louis when its time to have the ACC teams play them. It's a one way street that fans of the old Big East know too well.

Welcome to the forum, Buck. Nice to see you here along with the WVU Scout Big 12 forum and CSNbbs realignment forum.

Have you read this thread, Buck?

ND gave up a HOME game at South Bend to play BC at Fenway Park. BC did not give up its home game for a neutral site.

The Syracuse/ND games at Met Life were scheduled BEFORE ND joined the ACC and the Syracuse AD wants the games to be played there, just like he wanted the Syracuse home game with Southern Cal to be played there.

 

[TerryD]

I've been a defender of the ACC for the most part over the past couple of years (and I've been criticized by many of my Big Ten brethren when I've done so), but the hubris that I've been seeing from many ACC fans lately is laughable. They're doing the same thing that the delusional Big 12 fans did last year (when they were dreaming of poaching Florida State and Clemson), only now it's about Notre Dame joining as a full member. Both the ACC and Big 12 fans have mistaken *survival* (as a result of key schools like UNC and Texas choosing to stay where they are) for strength (which only the Big Ten and SEC really have by comparison, while the Pac-12 is protected by geography). When you lose schools to other conferences, you have some type of underlying problem. Period. No revisionist history about what the value of Maryland might be or how the newcomers will supposedly be stronger changes that. Maybe the problem isn't quite as severe across the board (I think the Big 12 is a heck of a lot more vulnerable long-term than the ACC, for instance), but there are definitely issues if that occurs.

At the same time, the suggestion that the Big Ten offered Notre Dame hockey membership is patently, 110%, completely and unambiguously FALSE. The Big Ten (unlike the ACC) hasn't offered Notre Dame any type of partial membership at any level and NEVER will. Even in the message board world, I don't see many outright lies that often, but the thought that ND could have ever joined the Big Ten for hockey without joining for football and all other sports is absolutely a lie.

This lie doesn't even make sense for the conspiracy theorists/rumor mongers out there. The Big Ten had 5 hockey playing schools for decades upon decades when inviting 1 other hockey-playing school (whether it was ND or someone else) would have allowed it to form a hockey league. *That* would have been the time for the Big Ten to invite ND for hockey. However, the Big Ten chose to wait decades upon decades and didn't form a league until another full member (Penn State) created a hockey program. So, why the heck would the Big Ten suddenly want to invite ND (or anyone else) *now*? That makes no sense.

To be sure, I don't blame the ACC for granting ND a partial membership. In fact, it will likely work out fine for both parties. Getting ND to play 5 ACC opponents per year (assuming they live up to that bargain) honestly isn't a bad deal. However, do NOT mistake this partial membership as any indication whatsoever that ND is going to join as a full member down the road. ND did this because they would take a partial membership *anywhere* before choosing to join a conference as a football member. If the ACC wanted to push ND, the Irish would just propose the same partial membership arrangement with the Big 12 (who has already offered it) or, worst case, go back and play basketball with its old Catholic buddies in the new Big East and keep on trucking along with football independence. I know it still sounds crazy to 99% of college football fans, but independence in and of itself is what matters to Domers - it can't be emphasized enough how important that is (and with the Big 12 and Big East sitting there as non-football options, their alums will not accept the notion that there aren't alternatives to joining the ACC full-time).

Any ACC fan that believes that ND would join as a football member would probably also believe that the ACC could reverse-raid the Big Ten, and anyone that believes that has to be automatically discounted as having any understanding of the overall conference realignment landscape and pecking order.

For the record, I agree with all of this. I also was not the one who said that the Big Ten offered hockey membership to ND.

What I said was that joining the ACC as a partial member and Hockey East as a member shows where (geographically) ND wants to be. It ain't the Big Ten and likely never will be.

It would have been easy for ND to join the Big Ten in 2010. Many assumed and expected that Jim Delany had "checkmated" ND because the BTN would pay more money than the NBC contract.

They thought that ND would fall to the Big Ten like ripened fruit, mainly because it made TV dollar sense (which is what solely drives expansion options at other schools).

After all, ND would make the most TV dollars in the Big Ten. Travel costs for basketball and other sports would decrease. It would keep the games with Michigan, Michigan State and Purdue going as conference games, freeing up slots for OOC games for other schools.

They were dead wrong. Nobody asked ND about that.

ND rejected all of this in favor of independence and partial ACC membership, even though that means less money in the coffers from ESPN/Fox and the Big Ten Network.

ND does not ever want to be part of the Big Ten Conference and will avoid that fate at all costs.

Frank knows this very well. He was one who thought ND was "checkmated" in 2010, but has since done a 180 on this issue.

 

[06029]

Syracuse will play ND away from home. They had decided to play some games in NYC, they hadn't decided the games were to be ND games originally. BC fairly recently agreed to play ND games away from home at Fenway--just this past December. This is ND's desire as it was when the Big East attempted to schedule ND games. Home games for ND, away games for the partial conference opponent. There are likely to be more moves like this with some of the programs when its ND's turn to go to the opponents home field.

The BC game at Fenway is an ND home game. BC was scheduled to go to South Bend in 2015 or possibly Ireland. BC is the visitor. The next time BC plays ND at home it will be at BC. Do you want me to type it slower so you can understand? Look at the future ACC schedule. The games away will be played on the ACC campus. In 2015 that is at Pitt, at Clemson at UVa. In 2016 it at NC State and at Cuse in MetLife. In 2017 it is at BC, at Miami and at Lville.
http://www.mike-nd.com/sched-f.htm
The Cuse playing ND at MetLife, that is CUse's choosing. None of those other teams will move the games off campus. They don't have too.

This is 1000% different than what ND wanted from the BE. ND wanted every series to be a 2 for 1 with the 1 at a neutral site.

 

[NickyNewark]

Wow Im at a loss for word's.

 

[buckaineer]

Referencing a misguided post above, if any conferences fans have hubris it is the Big Ten's fans. If not for Ohio State the conference would have been split up years ago, yet B10 posters spout on an on all over the internet about schools like Texas or UNC having some undue control over the BIG 12 and ACC.

The truth is each and every conference --especially the Big Ten, have schools at the top, middle and bottom in terms of national power. No league is controlled or carried more than tOSU does the Big Ten.

As far as stability, it is also amusing to constantly see B10 types proclaim doom for others. It is clear that recently, Big Ten schools talked with the ACC about leaving the conference. Barry Alvarez stated himself that a major factor in adding Maryland and Rutgers was to stave off the threat of PSU leaving the conference. But the propoganda machine continues the idea that "the BIG 12 is vulnerable" while the B10 is "stable" etc.

Recently the B10 conference media has had to post "feel good" stories to keep Nebraska fans happy as they begin to realize the financial mistake of moving to the Big Ten. Reading message boards of the western Big Ten schools recently one can conclude all is not great in paradise as schools like Wisconsin find themselves trapped in an upper midwestern conference with little access to the east, while OSU, Mich, PSU and MSU all get to play one another yearly and also visit new recruiting and exposure grounds every year. No doubt Bielema saw the writing on the wall and chose to leave the conference he had previously won and defended so often.

In the east, Penn State fans and alumni certainly don't seem all that content with how they have been treated in that league. Even Ohio State's president was recently let go after voicing such discontent as OSU being happy as long as the conference kept it's hands out of tOSU's pockets. The conference's strength of schedule continues to decline as compared to leagues like the SEC, BIG 12 and Pac 12.

That said, the league does have money though, and will get more. They won't have more than BIG 12 or SEC schools although that has been the popular story, but they will have much more than ACC schools. $100 million more by just 2020. As we have all seen money has been what realignment is all about as schools try to position themselves for the playoffs.

 

[buckaineer]

To show how ND is already falling back on it's old Big East ways despite protests otherwise--the game against BC at Fenway was accomplished for Notre Dame by ND reneging on its guarantee of five games next season. They've already altered the scheduling. Wake Forest had to move its scheduled game to 2015 to accomodate ND.

It will be amusing to watch over the coming years as more ACC teams "agree" to play neutral site games with the domers despite the proclamations that this isn't happening.

 

[TerryD]

To show how ND is already falling back on it's old Big East ways despite protests otherwise--the game against BC at Fenway was accomplished for Notre Dame by ND reneging on its guarantee of five games next season. They've already altered the scheduling. Wake Forest had to move its scheduled game to 2015 to accomodate ND.

It will be amusing to watch over the coming years as more ACC teams agree to play neutral site games with the domers despite the proclamations that this isn't happening.

Were you aware, Buck, that ND will play SIX ( not four, not five) ACC teams in 2015 to make up the difference? That equals an average of five per year, which is the deal.

ND had trouble getting out of some pre-existing contracts for 2014.

You are making a mountain out of a speck of sand, not even a mole hill.

 

[buckaineer]

Were you aware, Buck, that ND will play SIX ( not four, not five) ACC teams in 2015 to make up the difference? That equals an average of five per year, which is the deal.

ND had trouble getting out of some pre-existing contracts, one of them being the Arizona State game in Tempe that had no buyout clause negotiated by ND's former (now Duke's AD) AD, Kevin White.

You are making a mountain out of a speck of sand, not even a mole hill.

Just as it began in the Big East--all to protests of "what you see happening isn't happening".

 

[TerryD]

Just as it began in the Big East--all to protests of "what you see happening isn't happening".

Show me the five football game per year written contractual agreement that ND signed with the old Big East Conference.

There was none. There is with the ACC.

 

[buckaineer]

BTW Frank, I haven't posted on the CSNBBS for years--if someone is posting over there as buckaineer it isn't me.

 

[TerryD]

BTW Frank, I haven't posted on the CSNBBS for years--if someone is posting over there as buckaineer it isn't me.

No, that was my reference, not Frank's. I was just saying hello to you and reminiscing about the old CSNbbs days, not current posts.

 

[buckaineer]

Show me the five football game per year written contractual agreement that ND signed with the old Big East Conference.

There was none. There is with the ACC.

Notre Dame agreed to play every Big East school home and home. Then they only scheduled a few teams. Then when the league amped up pressure to schedule, ND said they would play schools like UConn and Rutgers but the games had to be two for one with ND getting home games and the Big East schools playing on neutral sites. Schools like UC, WVU, ND would not schedule at all despite the original agreement.

This is the same pattern beginning to emerge in the ACC. First its SU and BC playing games at neutral sites to accomodate the domers. Then its "well yeah, we agreed to play five, but this year we won't". There won't be many people surprised if more games are switched in the future just as Wake did for next, or to see more neutral site games as ND desires.

All water under the bridge now though, the ACC let them take bowls and revenues for their partial non football membership. They'll have to live with whatever comes from it.

 

[06029]

To show how ND is already falling back on it's old Big East ways despite protests otherwise--the game against BC at Fenway was accomplished for Notre Dame by ND reneging on its guarantee of five games next season. They've already altered the scheduling. Wake Forest had to move its scheduled game to 2015 to accomodate ND.

It will be amusing to watch over the coming years as more ACC teams "agree" to play neutral site games with the domers despite the proclamations that this isn't happening.

I am no Domer but do like to dwell in the realm of reality. But your insistence on hypothetical futures that are not happening over the next 3 years is weird.
Maybe this will help you:
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...0/notre-dame-football-schedule-2014-2015-2016
4 ACC games in 2014 (you got that right), 6 in 2015, 5 in 2016. That is 15 games in 3 years or an average of 5 per year. Note that these have the off campus locations listed. Beyond Cuse, none are off campus. ND got 8 home games including the home game at Fenway.

ND thinks themselves special and they get special deals to reinforce that belief. But they never gave the BE any FB games like this. ND will NEVER be a full member of the ACC. If they are forced into a conference, they will be in the B1G. It is their natural home and if that time ever comes, the B1G will dwarf everyone in terms of revenue from TV.

 

[buckaineer]

No, that was my reference, not Frank's. I was just saying hello to you and reminiscing about the old CSNbbs days, not current posts.

Gotcha

 

[buckaineer]

I am no Domer but do like to dwell in the realm of reality. But your insistence on hypothetical futures that are not happening over the next 3 years is weird.
Maybe this will help you:
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...0/notre-dame-football-schedule-2014-2015-2016
4 ACC games in 2014 (you got that right), 6 in 2015, 5 in 2016. That is 15 games in 3 years or an average of 5 per year. Note that these have the off campus locations listed. Beyond Cuse, none are off campus. ND got 8 home games including the home game at Fenway.

ND thinks themselves special and they get special deals to reinforce that belief. But they never gave the BE any FB games like this. ND will NEVER be a full member of the ACC. If they are forced into a conference, they will be in the B1G. It is their natural home and if that time ever comes, the B1G will dwarf everyone in terms of revenue from TV.

Notre Dame did in fact agree to play every Big East school on a rotating basis and then never came through with the agreement, only scheduling Pitt and SU for a few games, offering UConn and RU one neutral site and two ND home games-which both eventually declined, and giving USF the option of a ND home game only. WVU was never scheduled as promised and neither were UC or UL.

 

[TerryD]

Notre Dame agreed to play every Big East school home and home. Then they only scheduled a few teams. Then when the league amped up pressure to schedule, ND said they would play schools like UConn and Rutgers but the games had to be two for one with ND getting home games and the Big East schools playing on neutral sites. Schools like UC, WVU, ND would not schedule at all despite the original agreement.

This is the same pattern beginning to emerge in the ACC. First its SU and BC playing games at neutral sites to accomodate the domers. Then its "well yeah, we agreed to play five, but this year we won't". There won't be many people surprised if more games are switched in the future just as Wake did for next, or to see more neutral site games as ND desires.

All water under the bridge now though, the ACC let them take bowls and revenues for their partial non football membership. They'll have to live with whatever comes from it.

No written agreement, Buck. Kevin White verbally told the BE commissioner after the 2003 raid that ND would "play 3 BE schools per year".

ND never said it would play ALL BE football schools nor did it say WHERE the games were to be played.

ND tried to schedule UConn and Rutgers but those schools stuck to their guns on a home/home series, which ND declined.

The ACC has a written contract that mandates that ND play five ACC games, ND provides the open dates and the ACC schedules the schools/venues.

Big difference.

 

[TerryD]

I am no Domer but do like to dwell in the realm of reality. But your insistence on hypothetical futures that are not happening over the next 3 years is weird.
Maybe this will help you:
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...0/notre-dame-football-schedule-2014-2015-2016
4 ACC games in 2014 (you got that right), 6 in 2015, 5 in 2016. That is 15 games in 3 years or an average of 5 per year. Note that these have the off campus locations listed. Beyond Cuse, none are off campus. ND got 8 home games including the home game at Fenway.

ND thinks themselves special and they get special deals to reinforce that belief. But they never gave the BE any FB games like this. ND will NEVER be a full member of the ACC. If they are forced into a conference, they will be in the B1G. It is their natural home and if that time ever comes, the B1G will dwarf everyone in terms of revenue from TV.

Obviously, I and many, many other ND fans disagree with you on the "natural home" being the Big Ten.

I am going to stop posting on these threads since they were sort of hijacked, but someone did post something about ND in them.

ND comments are relevant here only if UConn's hopes of a P5 conference invitation depend on ND joining either the Big Ten or ACC fully as #15 with UConn being #16.

In my opinion, that will likely never happen. I personally would like to see UConn and Cincinnati invited to the ACC, with ND remaining as is. I don't know if that will happen, though.

 

[06029]

Notre Dame agreed to play every Big East school home and home. Then they only scheduled a few teams. Then when the league amped up pressure to schedule, ND said they would play schools like UConn and Rutgers but the games had to be two for one with ND getting home games and the Big East schools playing on neutral sites. Schools like UC, WVU, ND would not schedule at all despite the original agreement.

This is the same pattern beginning to emerge in the ACC. First its SU and BC playing games at neutral sites to accomodate the domers. Then its "well yeah, we agreed to play five, but this year we won't". There won't be many people surprised if more games are switched in the future just as Wake did for next, or to see more neutral site games as ND desires.

All water under the bridge now though, the ACC let them take bowls and revenues for their partial non football membership. They'll have to live with whatever comes from it.

You can not shape historical facts to make your version of history match your beliefs. ND never agreed to home and homes with the entire BE. NEVER. At one point they were negotiating for the 2 home, 1 neutral game with I believe 3 teams per year but that was never agreed upon. BC, Pitt, UWV and Cuse were all against it. RU was for it since they could still play in NJ. And ND was worried about losing too many games with their "traditonal" rivals (which they of course gave up with the ACC deal - MI). So the deal dies. That is when the 10 game Uconn series got negotiated with no home games for Uconn at the Rent. The only thing ND did for the BE in FB was bring some bowl affiliations to the conference. And they were first choice for those bowls in most years.

 

[06029]

Obviously, I and many, many other ND fans disagree with you on the "natural home" being the Big Ten.

I am going to stop posting on these threads since they were sort of hijacked, but someone did post something about ND in them.

ND comments are relevant here only if UConn's hopes of a P5 conference invitation depend on ND joining either the Big Ten or ACC fully as #15 with UConn being #16.

In my opinion, that will likely never happen. I personally would like to see UConn and Cincinnati invited to the ACC, with ND remaining as is. I don't know if that will happen, though.

ND does what is 100% best for themselves and it is always tied to revenue. If they are forced into a conference, they will need a conference that: 1) gives them the most revenue; and, 2) makes the most competitive sense. The B1G and SEC will fit the first but the long history ND has with many of the B1G schools is why I see it as their natural home. The ACC will never generate the revenue with ND that the B1G would generate with ND. I also think Delaney can sell a better TV package than Swofford. Plus, after becoming an after thought in Hockey East, ND will look at the B1G Hockey as place where they can win. And in the end, it is all about the money for ND and every other school.