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Zones - Glen Miller's Fools Gold

  • Thread starter Thread starter Chief00
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I don't care how undermanned we are - stop playing zone. You can't play zone and play UConn basketball. Screw it!

Chief how do you know this is Glen Miller's idea and not say Killings? The assistants give ideas but its the head coach Ollie that makes the decisions on how to play. Although I agree with your sentiment that we should play majority man to man and not sit back in zone especially not the first 10 minutes of a game where the team should be aggressive in. The team was not ready to play the first half whether they played zone or man to man, thats on the head coach not the assistant coach. We don't play with the right aggression and attitude on the court. Everything is done in a lackadaisical just another game approach. Hami will do wonders for us as he has the IT factor and plays with a cockiness and confidence on the court not to mention electrifying dunks.
 
People are so dense. I mean can you imagine playing a small Houston team man to man with Jackson guarding a guard or Durham or Enoch a 6'6 guy with perimeter skills? I mean please look at your team before you say such ridiclous things, Brimah would have played 7 minutes he would have fouled so many times. They were small, pretty good with the ball all the way through Knowles and we have 3 of our 7 available guys who can't guard a wing or small forward. Think please before you speak. 75-25% was perfect yesterday and we had 2 non-PG's playing 40 minutes. Man to man is hardly even a smart choice with Jalen playing.
 
That's what worries me...that they were THAT bad...because our players, talent-wise, shouldn't be THAT outmatched.

But a big part of that is their team composition: The right 6-7 guys can be enough, though it's tough. This 6-7 guys, right now, ain't it.

One of the game announcers commented at the end that UConn had no bench scoring. Well, sort of, except 3 bench players started the game and had most of the points. The point is, as you point out, is which 6 or 7 are at your disposal. They could have gone man, but they might have also scored less than 12 second half points from chasing Houston all over the court. I'm not a big Ollie fan, don't think his teams are ever consistently focused. I think the zone decision was okay. The intensity was not. They weren't going to win anyway, but the intensity is gone.

I didn't always appreciate Calhoun's methods or temperment, but KO needs a quicker hook. When the team shot about 2 dozen more threes than he wanted the other night, JC would not have had that happen.
 
our defense is not up to usual standards but its still fairly above average. The bigs, the zone, all of this is moot until purvis/vital/jackson hit shots imo. These guys are bricking threes at an alarming rate, and they take half their fg's from beyond the arc.
 
our defense is not up to usual standards but its still fairly above average. The bigs, the zone, all of this is moot until purvis/vital/jackson hit shots imo. These guys are bricking threes at an alarming rate, and they take half their fg's from beyond the arc.

Agree but you know what's crazy, there were numerous times in the first half that Vital, Jackson and Purvis passed up open looks to drive and create, problem is many of those resulted in TO's. So I must say I'd rather take a shot in which we make 20% of the shots than not get a shot at all. Scary thought huh?:eek:
 
Agree but you know what's crazy, there were numerous times in the first half that Vital, Jackson and Purvis passed up open looks to drive and create, problem is many of those resulted in TO's. So I must say I'd rather take a shot in which we make 20% of the shots than not get a shot at all. Scary thought huh?:eek:

Agree lots of bad options. What though is difficult to quantify is how man to man defense makes you more aggressive on offense, creates fast breaks, should help you rebound etc. Besides the obvious it brings accountability and toughness and yes ultimately confidence over your opponent that goes into winning tough games.

Sadly, many of our players brick shots in pregame warm-ups and I can absolutely tell you there is a lack of concentration and confidence in the shooting - never mind any specific mechanics issue the dude may have.

I have watched guys like Jo Jo White, Chris Mullins, Larry Bird and Ray Allen warm up long before game time. Quite frankly, there is a focus and purpose to everything they do. They are systematic and there are no throw away shots - the intent is to make every shot - and there is the consistency and methodology to attempt to do that. Jo Jo had a great bank shot - a loss art. After watching him warm up for about 30 minutes at the HCC - I don't think he missed more than 2 shots - he was a machine. Larry Bird had that smooth flow where there would almost be a jet stream taking the ball into the hoop. The thing that always impressed me about Ray was how much he elevated and used his legs on each shot. Given the amount of shots he takes the conditioning to do that always amazed me.
 
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@Chief00 honestly watching players warm up is a good indication of their confidence in shooting (how disciplined the routine is too), i have no qualms with that observation. chief spurts mountains of bs but sometimes there is stuff i agree on, dunno how that makes me feel. I saw vital play in hs with enoch and he shot the lights out in pregame and during the game. I still think he is a good shooter but is being asked to do a lot.
 
@Chief00 honestly watching players warm up is a good indication of their confidence in shooting (how disciplined the routine is too), i have no qualms with that observation. chief spurts mountains of bs but sometimes there is stuff i agree on, dunno how that makes me feel. I saw vital play in hs with enoch and he shot the lights out in pregame and during the game. I still think he is a good shooter but is being asked to do a lot.
I don't agree with the BS part like Drummond coming to UConn in September or Diaco getting canned. Otherwise good observations. Vitale is a tough player - one thing I haven't seen him do is break down a guy off the dribble. Still holding out hope he can shot??
 
@Chief00 youre full of it sometimes lol just facts from different episodes on this board. however you do say some random things i agree as far as player development and hoops in general. Vital must thank god daily for the amount of minutes he is getting and touches, wouldn't have happened at unlv. this is a crash course for him, he has great mechanics imo unlike VJ, maybe the light switch turns on at some point. this year or next.
 
@Chief00 honestly watching players warm up is a good indication of their confidence in shooting (how disciplined the routine is too), i have no qualms with that observation. chief spurts mountains of bs but sometimes there is stuff i agree on, dunno how that makes me feel. I saw vital play in hs with enoch and he shot the lights out in pregame and during the game. I still think he is a good shooter but is being asked to do a lot.

Chief has obviously watched a lot of basketball. A lot of the people I consider informed posters often have the same takes. Chief sometimes points out things we don't notice. But he is a delusional blowhard who derives too much from the validation of others. And he is stubborn as hell. Sorry @Chief00. This roster is too slow, thin in numbers and big heavy to play man predominantly. We all wish it weren't the case and look forward to getting back to pressure man2man when he have the horses next year.
 
He needs to take advantage of opportunity. Establish himself as a shooter and hardnose type. See him coming off the bench next year in those roles.
 
I know this seems like a sizzling take but I actually kind of agree with a lot of what @Chief00 has said in this thread. I don't condone playing zone, ever. If Ollie wants to play some zone with six scholarship guys available, it is tough for me to object, but again...it was 36-12 at halftime. Obviously, the plan didn't work, and the point that I think he's making is that playing man - even if it gives us a lesser chance of winning right now - is more conducive to the long term development of the players.
 
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I know this seems like a sizzling take but I actually kind of agree with a lot of what @Chief00 has said in this thread. I don't condone playing zone, ever. If Ollie wants to play some zone with six scholarship guys available, it is tough for me to object, but again...it was 36-12 at halftime. Obviously, the plan didn't work, and the point that I think he's making is that playing man - even if it gives us a lesser chance of winning right now - is more conducive to the long term development of the players.

Hate to ask this but what does 36-12 have to do with man or zone? Are you saying we scored 12 because we weren't playing man defense?

The other team got 26 in the 2nd half and we got 34 doing the same thing, the only difference is making shots had nothing to do with our defense. I think we all come from Jim C's brand of hard nosed defense and would love to see man-to-man for basically 40 minutes but reality is it's insane to even think this crew could match up with anyone never mind actually do it and stay out of foul trouble. Not sure what people aren't getting when at no point in that game would we have been playing the 3 best players on the beginning roster at any point of the game and the only PG we have left for any part of the game? This was a no-brainer and they were forced to do this and no other coach on earth would have done it differently including one Mr Jim Calhoun. This gave the team their best chance to win period. 5 players were Enoch, Brimah, Facey, Durham and Jackson none of who can guard a 2G, swing or anyone who can play away from the basket. And Houston plays 4 guys who can handle the ball - please think about that 36 being 50 and how everyone is in foul trouble at halftime and the walk ons are playing? Exactly!
 
I know this seems like a sizzling take but I actually kind of agree with a lot of what @Chief00 has said in this thread. I don't condone playing zone, ever. If Ollie wants to play some zone with six scholarship guys available, it is tough for me to object, but again...it was 36-12 at halftime. Obviously, the plan didn't work, and the point that I think he's making is that playing man - even if it gives us a lesser chance of winning right now - is more conducive to the long term development of the players.

Exactly, take the long strategic view. It's also building an accountable and tough culture. Besides as you say 36-12 speaks for itself. What people don't see is all the practice time we waste on Coach Miller preaching his various zones when we should be working on offense.
 
Hate to ask this but what does 36-12 have to do with man or zone? Are you saying we scored 12 because we weren't playing man defense?

The other team got 26 in the 2nd half and we got 34 doing the same thing, the only difference is making shots had nothing to do with our defense. I think we all come from Jim C's brand of hard nosed defense and would love to see man-to-man for basically 40 minutes but reality is it's insane to even think this crew could match up with anyone never mind actually do it and stay out of foul trouble. Not sure what people aren't getting when at no point in that game would we have been playing the 3 best players on the beginning roster at any point of the game and the only PG we have left for any part of the game? This was a no-brainer and they were forced to do this and no other coach on earth would have done it differently including one Mr Jim Calhoun. This gave the team their best chance to win period. 5 players were Enoch, Brimah, Facey, Durham and Jackson none of who can guard a 2G, swing or anyone who can play away from the basket. And Houston plays 4 guys who can handle the ball - please think about that 36 being 50 and how everyone is in foul trouble at halftime and the walk ons are playing? Exactly!

Is our talent evaluation in recruiting that bad? So much of defense is heart and you can't score if you get denied and don't have the ball.
I have no problem with some zone - it makes the other team prepare for more stuff - but it should be a change up not our main thing.

Good tough aggressive defense can transition to offense and make our offense better. Guys just play and not overthink. The other team can shoot poorly against a zone and get offensive rebounds. Our guys seemed really confused about their defensive sliding in the zone.
 
Is our talent evaluation in recruiting that bad? So much of defense is heart and you can't score if you get denied and don't have the ball.
I have no problem with some zone - it makes the other team prepare for more stuff - but it should be a change up not our main thing.

Good tough aggressive defense can transition to offense and make our offense better. Guys just play and not overthink. The other team can shoot poorly against a zone and get offensive rebounds. Our guys seemed really confused about their defensive sliding in the zone.

Houston averages 79.4 points per game this year and we held them to 62. We scored 12 points in the first half. Your conclusion is that playing zone defense is the problem. 'Nuff said.
 
One of the game announcers commented at the end that UConn had no bench scoring. Well, sort of, except 3 bench players started the game and had most of the points. The point is, as you point out, is which 6 or 7 are at your disposal. They could have gone man, but they might have also scored less than 12 second half points from chasing Houston all over the court. I'm not a big Ollie fan, don't think his teams are ever consistently focused. I think the zone decision was okay. The intensity was not. They weren't going to win anyway, but the intensity is gone.

I didn't always appreciate Calhoun's methods or temperment, but KO needs a quicker hook. When the team shot about 2 dozen more threes than he wanted the other night, JC would not have had that happen.
A quick hook to play who? A walk-on?
 
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Houston averages 79.4 points per game this year and we held them to 62. We scored 12 points in the first half. Your conclusion is that playing zone defense is the problem. 'Nuff said.
Quite frankly, when someone ends their post with "nuff said" it generally means their arguments are weak and they don't want a counter response.
Ok, I will break it down again for the casual fans and others:
- Houston shot well over 50% - it was not great defense - KO said that himself post game. The reason they had less points was the time of possession not the quality of our possessions.
- I have said numerous times the problem with this team is they can't shoot and even in this thread I analyze that aspect.
- However basketball is not a two platoon sport as some of our posters with football backgrounds think - if played the right way - it's a transition game - allowing a team to throw up three shots on one possession and making one (33%) does not help the offense. Playing aggressive D - getting turnover, a block shot in bounds or a rebound and getting out and running is how the game is played and that improves your offense.
- This idea that zones protect fouls - I have seen us commit numerous fouls playing zones this year including the Auburn game where we were in the bonus and double bonus very early.
 
Quite frankly, when someone ends their post with "nuff said" it generally means their arguments are weak and they don't want a counter response.
Ok, I will break it down again for the casual fans and others:
- Houston shot well over 50% - it was not great defense - KO said that himself post game. The reason they had less points was the time of possession not the quality of our possessions.
- I have said numerous times the problem with this team is they can't shoot and even in this thread I analyze that aspect.
- However basketball is not a two platoon sport as some of our posters with football backgrounds think - if played the right way - it's a transition game - allowing a team to throw up three shots on one possession and making one (33%) does not help the offense. Playing aggressive D - getting turnover, a block shot in bounds or a rebound and getting out and running is how the game is played and that improves your offense.
- This idea that zones protect fouls - I have seen us commit numerous fouls playing zones this year including the Auburn game where we were in the bonus and double bonus very early.

Wow c'mon Chief stay with us here. We all agree with you in a better year with a full squad this is the way to go, man all out the UConn way. But you have no argument for how it was played the other night, ZERO. They had match up nightmares galore, they have only 2 serviceable guards neither of which are PG's and they have 2 bigs that always are in foul trouble. Did you really want this game played with 5 walk ons the last 10 minutes?

You have no argument, they played it the way it had to be played and I will make you cringe again like Onions - 'Nuff said;)
 
Wow c'mon Chief stay with us here. We all agree with you in a better year with a full squad this is the way to go, man all out the UConn way. But you have no argument for how it was played the other night, ZERO. They had match up nightmares galore, they have only 2 serviceable guards neither of which are PG's and they have 2 bigs that always are in foul trouble. Did you really want this game played with 5 walk ons the last 10 minutes?

You have no argument, they played it the way it had to be played and I will make you cringe again like Onions - 'Nuff said;)
I understand those micro arguments - and have said zone can be part of the toolbox. I don't want to sound like Diaco -but if we want to built a strong culture and identity of accountability and yes Stairmaster - Alpha male type players (cringe) - taking the long view predominately man is the way to go if we want to position our players to eventually win tough games.
 
I understand those micro arguments - and have said zone can be part of the toolbox. I don't want to sound like Diaco -but if we want to built a strong culture and identity of accountability and yes Stairmaster - Alpha male type players (cringe) - taking the long view predominately man is the way to go if we want to position our players to eventually win tough games.

When healthy and roster is full I'm all in on this Chief!
 
Quite frankly, when someone ends their post with "nuff said" it generally means their arguments are weak and they don't want a counter response.
Ok, I will break it down again for the casual fans and others:
- Houston shot well over 50% - it was not great defense - KO said that himself post game. The reason they had less points was the time of possession not the quality of our possessions.
- I have said numerous times the problem with this team is they can't shoot and even in this thread I analyze that aspect.
- However basketball is not a two platoon sport as some of our posters with football backgrounds think - if played the right way - it's a transition game - allowing a team to throw up three shots on one possession and making one (33%) does not help the offense. Playing aggressive D - getting turnover, a block shot in bounds or a rebound and getting out and running is how the game is played and that improves your offense.
- This idea that zones protect fouls - I have seen us commit numerous fouls playing zones this year including the Auburn game where we were in the bonus and double bonus very early.

"Houston shot well over 50% - it was not great defense. "
-- Agreed. It was bad defense and unbelievably, ridiculously, absurdly, historically bad offense - and you're concentrating on the defense.

"The reason they had less points was the time of possession not the quality of our possessions."
-- Agreed, which is why it was smart to play zone - less possessions are better for the worse team. If we had played man we would have lost by 40.

"Playing aggressive D - getting turnover, a block shot in bounds or a rebound and getting out and running is how the game is played and that improves your offense."
-- Blocked shots have nothing to do with zone vs man, so let's pass on that one. Aggressive D leads to turnovers leads to transition buckets - Agreed. But it also leads to fouls, faster pace, and exhaustion when playing with only 7 guys in uniform. Nobody is arguing against aggressive man2man under normal circumstances, but clearly these are not normal circumstances.

"I have seen us commit numerous fouls playing zones this year including the Auburn game where we were in the bonus and double bonus very early"
-- And more fouls would be committed if we played man, which means we would have been into the walk ons by half time. There was a game earlier in the year when we had played zone for most of the first half and then in the second half KO switched to man and Kenton Facey picked up 2 fouls in less than a minute after replacing Brimah who had just picked up his third. We have foul prone biggs and they will pick up fouls when playing zone, but they will pick them up faster playing man.

If your argument is that if we played aggressive man we would have scored more I will agree with that. Instead of losing 62-46 we would have lost 92-58 with Sampson calling off the dogs after Brimah, Facey and Purvis fouled out. Does that make you feel better?
 
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"Houston shot well over 50% - it was not great defense. "
-- Agreed. It was bad defense and unbelievably, ridiculously, absurdly, historically bad offense - and you're concentrating on the defense.

"The reason they had less points was the time of possession not the quality of our possessions."
-- Agreed, which is why it was smart to play zone - less possessions are better for the worse team. If we had played man we would have lost by 40.

"Playing aggressive D - getting turnover, a block shot in bounds or a rebound and getting out and running is how the game is played and that improves your offense."
-- Blocked shots have nothing to do with zone vs man, so let's pass on that one. Aggressive D leads to turnovers leads to transition buckets - Agreed. But it also leads to fouls, faster pace, and exhaustion when playing with only 7 guys in uniform. Nobody is arguing against aggressive man2man under normal circumstances, but clearly these are not normal circumstances.

"I have seen us commit numerous fouls playing zones this year including the Auburn game where we were in the bonus and double bonus very early"
-- And more fouls would be committed if we played man, which means we would have been into the walk ons by half time. There was a game earlier in the year when we had played zone for most of the first half and then in the second half KO switched to man and Kenton Facey picked up 2 fouls in less than a minute after replacing Brimah who had just picked up his third. We have foul prone biggs and they will pick up fouls when playing zone, but they will pick them up faster playing man.

If your argument is that if we played aggressive man we would have scored more I will agree with that. Instead of losing 62-46 we would have lost 92-58 with Sampson calling off the dogs after Brimah, Facey and Purvis fouled out. Does that make you feel better?

You have a defeatist attitude and make many opinion assumptions about what might have happened if we played man. We do know for a fact zone was a disaster - if you disagree about our defense against Houston you are disagreeing with KO's post game quotes. I think we should be building the team with predominantly man defense for the conference tournament. And yes - we may find out UConn is not the right fit for certain guys and I am ok with that. With other guys we will say - he's our man. Playing zone has been very ineffective and made our offense worse leading to passive play.
 
Hate to ask this but what does 36-12 have to do with man or zone? Are you saying we scored 12 because we weren't playing man defense?

The other team got 26 in the 2nd half and we got 34 doing the same thing, the only difference is making shots had nothing to do with our defense. I think we all come from Jim C's brand of hard nosed defense and would love to see man-to-man for basically 40 minutes but reality is it's insane to even think this crew could match up with anyone never mind actually do it and stay out of foul trouble. Not sure what people aren't getting when at no point in that game would we have been playing the 3 best players on the beginning roster at any point of the game and the only PG we have left for any part of the game? This was a no-brainer and they were forced to do this and no other coach on earth would have done it differently including one Mr Jim Calhoun. This gave the team their best chance to win period. 5 players were Enoch, Brimah, Facey, Durham and Jackson none of who can guard a 2G, swing or anyone who can play away from the basket. And Houston plays 4 guys who can handle the ball - please think about that 36 being 50 and how everyone is in foul trouble at halftime and the walk ons are playing? Exactly!

No, I'm saying we got waxed - and were going to get waxed regardless of what defense we played - so you might as well play man. It's not like this was a postseason game where we had to pull out all of the stops to grind it out. It was, quite literally, a meaningless game that has no baring on the long-term success of the program. I'd rather play man for 30 minutes and get burned out, knowing that it will be better for us down the road, than play zone for 30 minutes and be down 36-12 to a mid-major.

As Chief said, this game was an opportunity to develop through a feet to the fire approach, but I didn't see much of it. You want to see flashes from a team like this like @James was saying. These are valuable reps playing m2m defense that a kid like Enoch needs and isn't going to have the opportunity to get during practice.
 
No, I'm saying we got waxed - and were going to get waxed regardless of what defense we played - so you might as well play man. It's not like this was a postseason game where we had to pull out all of the stops to grind it out. It was, quite literally, a meaningless game that has no baring on the long-term success of the program. I'd rather play man for 30 minutes and get burned out, knowing that it will be better for us down the road, than play zone for 30 minutes and be down 36-12 to a mid-major.

As Chief said, this game was an opportunity to develop through a feet to the fire approach, but I didn't see much of it. You want to see flashes from a team like this like @James was saying. These are valuable reps playing m2m defense that a kid like Enoch needs and isn't going to have the opportunity to get during practice.
I hate to be the one to inform you, but KO is still trying to win games. Being down 16 points meant we were still, theoretically in the game till the last 5 minutes. Being down 40 with 3 starters fouled out means your out of it. forget playing zone or not (and by the way they did play man for part of the game), if KO had thrown in the towel he would have benched Amida and Kenton and let Enoch and Juwan have all the playing time - but he didn't. You have the option of looking to next year, but he's still coaching to win, hard as that might be.
 
You have a defeatist attitude and make many opinion assumptions about what might have happened if we played man. We do know for a fact zone was a disaster - if you disagree about our defense against Houston you are disagreeing with KO's post game quotes. I think we should be building the team with predominantly man defense for the conference tournament. And yes - we may find out UConn is not the right fit for certain guys and I am ok with that. With other guys we will say - he's our man. Playing zone has been very ineffective and made our offense worse leading to passive play.

Playing man might be good for the future of the program, but playing zone gave us our best chance, however slim that might have been, for beating Houston on that day.

If KO said we sucked on D I'm not surprised because we did. What he didn't say was that if he had to do it all over again he would have played man.

KO is building the team with predominantly man defense, because that's who he is and what he does best. However he is not an idiot, and when circumstances dictate that he do something else he will, and I can't think of any coach who wouldn't.

I expect to see more m2m once Jalen comes back, I expect to see mostly man next year, as usual. What I don't expect is to see him try to go with full court pressure for 40 minutes when he has a 7 man roster.
 
I really don't think it gave us the best chance to win - as stated previously I understand these conventional arguments for zone. I just don't agree they work for us and the results speak for themselves.
 
I really don't think it gave us the best chance to win - as stated previously I understand these conventional arguments for zone. I just don't agree they work for us and the results speak for themselves.

What you guys are forgetting with all of this "teaching the kids the right way" approach is they won't be playing enough to learn anything, or shall I say wouldn't have been the other night as they all would have been in foul trouble and fouling out early. I just don't see how Enoch or Durham would learn anything guarding a 6'5" guy who plays on the perimeter? Nothing would have been learned at all with the mismatches and many here would have been bitching about how awful our defenders are. I mean you may see more man today and I'm sure you will if Jalen is healthy but the other night played out jus like it should have minus the loss itself.
 
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