OT: World Cup 2018

[intlzncster]

Just thinking about it, the 'fair play' tiebreaker is the dumbest thing in history. Who was the idiot that came up with that one?

 

[superjohn]

Clint Dempsey is a badarse. You guys follow it closer than I do, how good do you think Christian Pulisic is and will be?

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Ah, that's different. I obviously don't know about everywhere, but I remember reading that it's really come on in Africa over the last 10 years or so. The WC in South Africa was testament to that growth*. ...

There's an inexorable spread of the game eastward. And the rise of Asia economically will only hasten football's growth.

There's already some noise about China potentially hosting a world cup (maybe even 2034). That's a massively underserved market they want to tap. Chinese were in the top 10 in tickets bought this world cup and they've only qualified once.

Africa: In addition to South Africa 2010's impact, Africa's relative increasing income, emerging & expanding middle classes by African standards, growing power access, and huge increases in internet access, mobile phone networks, and related use, etc. are significantly expanding viewership (TV + internet) and interest.

Asia: Similar to Africa. Yes, FIFA will absolutely give China an opportunity to host a future world cup even without bribes, Xi's massive support for the sport's growth (starting pre-primary school up to increasingly professional professional clubs, academies operated by invited European coaches, etc.).

Beyond huge #s of Chinese ticket buyers this world cup, note the Chinese sponsors. For example the massive Wanda Group (involved in malls, film production & all sorts of stuff in China, most east Asian & increasingly many other nations including some La Liga club), Hisense appliances (high quality), Vivo (great mobile phones, etc, NBA sponsor in China with Steph Curry, India's cricket premier league sponsor, etc.).

Besides games watched on CCTV, many sponsoring advertisers on Singaporean and Malaysian broadcasts I've watched are Chinese companies. Most westerners do not know the companies at all or know them well. With Xi's support for the sports growth, have no doubt the Chinese sponsors are allocating some RMB to soccer training in the schools, academies, etc.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Clint Dempsey is a badarse. You guys follow it closer than I do, how good do you think Christian Pulisic is and will be?

Pulisic: Very good, not bad arse Dempsey-like, but massively talented. Unlike Donovan who pussed out & ran home to sukc on his blankie, Pulisic has challenged himself & grown up with highly regarded Borussia Dortmund where he now plays regularly.

If Pulisic avoids injury, develops additional strength, and continues building his skills at a similar rate, he should be very successful. At 19, he's easily the best US men's player and attracts attention from other highly regarded European clubs.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Clint Dempsey is a badarse. You guys follow it closer than I do, how good do you think Christian Pulisic is and will be?

He is, IMO, already the best USMNT player ever. This isn’t my opinion due to a disdain for the past generation, but Pulisic does what he does at a higher level than any past national team player. We have never had opponents focus on strictly one plyer like we do now with CP.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Just thinking about it, the 'fair play' tiebreaker is the dumbest thing in history. Who was the idiot that came up with that one?

Some FIFA fool. As I recall, FIFA introduced the Fair Play tiebreaker for this world cup evolved and surprisingly as part of FIFA's fair play initiative.

If Japan & Senegal had the same # of cards, the teams would have drawn lots to decide which nation advanced. Better or worse?

 

[intlzncster]

Some FIFA fool. As I recall, FIFA introduced the Fair Play tiebreaker for this world cup evolved and surprisingly as part of FIFA's fair play initiative.

If Japan & Senegal had the same # of cards, the teams would have drawn lots to decide which nation advanced. Better or worse?

I'd rather have them flip a coin than 'fair play'. But, really, there's a billion stats they could use to determine a victor. Everything is tracked now. Pick some stat that tells you who was more dominant, more aggressive, who took more chances.

 

[UConnSwag11]

Clint Dempsey is a badarse. You guys follow it closer than I do, how good do you think Christian Pulisic is and will be?

Seems to do better for club than national team. He seems to disappear when it comes to playing for the US. Hopefully he gets more talent around him immediately otherwise his talent will definitely be wasted

 

[BlueMAB]

Seems to do better for club than national team. He seems to disappear when it comes to playing for the US. Hopefully he gets more talent around him immediately otherwise his talent will definitely be wasted

Disappear??? He has 9 goals and 6 assists in 21 CAPs. Nobody else on the roster is even close to that kind of production per game. That's .43 goals per game.

For comparison, Dempsey (a forward not midfielder/winger) has 141 CAPs and 57 goals, or .40 goals per game.

Pulisic plays in a position where he gets less touches inside the box, but is still on pace to be our greatest player/scorer ever.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Disappear??? He has 9 goals and 6 assists in 21 CAPs. Nobody else on the roster is even close to that kind of production per game. That's .43 goals per game.

For comparison, Dempsey (a forward not midfielder/winger) has 141 CAPs and 57 goals, or .40 goals per game.

Pulisic plays in a position where he gets less touches inside the box, but is still on pace to be our greatest player/scorer ever.

Agreed. He's been phenomenal. His only downsides have come when he was frankly, the only guy the opposing was worried about. I've seen him triple teamed, just to keep the ball away from him, because the rest of our guys aren't dangerous enough. Somel of those 9 goals came on brilliant individual plays were he beat multiple defenders on his own. I can't count how many times he beat several defenders and laid a solid ball in for a teammate to blow the finish. His assists would be much higher with better surrounding talent.

 

[HuskyHawk]

So much truth in there. My son and I were talking about the lack of progress in US soccer just yesterday. Everything you posted is true. But there is more. Soccer, like basketball, requires swag and an edge to be great. The great ones are a little cocky and also a little mean. They have a bit of a killer mentality. Soccer in the US is dominated by the country club athletes. Mommy and daddy are wealthy enough to afford the best training and competition for their kids. But no matter how much you train a country club kid, he will most likely never have that hunger and killer instinct. Very few are born with that as their first instinct and they won't get it at the country club. Being poor and having to overcome adversity breeds that hunger and poor kids are more likely to have a chip on their shoulder which leads to that killer instinct.

Our area is a perfect example. The best program is at the private high school. An executive VP at my company played soccer at Cornell and is in their "Hall of Fame". His kid was "so good" that he skipped his senior season to play on a semi-pro team. He is now playing at Cornell just like his daddy. That kid was never as good as everyone thought he was. I once watched a pick up game at the school and he was badly outplayed by a kid from Mali and a middle schooler who was from Columbia. But, somehow, this kid was anointed as "great". For all I know he may eventually be a US team caliber player. But he will NEVER be a world caliber great player. He lacks the intangibles just like most, if not all, the other country club kids. He, like his dad, has the personality of a stalk of asparagus.

This reminds me of something I've seen in basketball. Watched a local youth tournament that my daughter's former school puts on. It has teams from Providence and the northern RI suburbs. So you've got an inner city team of 8th graders, and they face some suburban kids and the best player by miles is a 6th grade suburban kid playing on the 8th grade team. His dad was coach.

I was watching with the father of one of the kids on the Providence team, and he said, yeah, the kid has great ball skills, court awareness, passing, shooting, all of it...but he's not a great athlete. So in 2-3 years, he'll be passed by and probably play ball at a DIII college somewhere (which is what his dad did). He was right.

I think we see the same in soccer. Some kid, like the one you mentioned going to Cornell, gets coached up to such a degree and is perhaps quite smart, and understands the game early beyond he peers, and stands out. But he's not that fast, and he reaches his ceiling much earlier than other kids. We have to find a way to identify the kids who can become great, even if they aren't getting strong coaching early on.

 

[UConnSwag11]

Maybe the teams that tied can do a 30 min golden goal? After that PKS. If no golden goal straight pks?

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Maybe the teams that tied can do a 30 min golden goal? After that PKS. If no golden goal straight pks?

As an alternative to the fair play tiebreaker? When 2 otherwise tied nations are playing in 2 different cities, e.g. Japan & Senegal yesterday?

 

[Waquoit]

I'd rather have them flip a coin than 'fair play'. But, really, there's a billion stats they could use to determine a victor. Everything is tracked now. Pick some stat that tells you who was more dominant, more aggressive, who took more chances.

Winning while playing a cleaner game seems as good a stat as any.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Seems to do better for club than national team. He seems to disappear when it comes to playing for the US. Hopefully he gets more talent around him immediately otherwise his talent will definitely be wasted

Casper wasn't targeted/recruited by highly regarded, top European league teams, but Pulisic is no friendly ghost. Friendly they say, but rarely disappears and could easily jump to another such club team for massive dinero if he didn't appreciate Borussia Dortmund giving him an opportunity and building his highly visible and effective skills.

 

[UConNick]

Here's a list of clubs in the past 8 months rumored to be interested in signing Pulisic: Liverpool, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Manchester United, Bayern Munich. He's already a star at age 19 and there's a shot given his talent and marketability (being an American) that he could one day break the transfer record.

 

[djct1999]

I am far more optimistic about the future of US soccer than most. I find the argument that it is a pay for play, rich kid sport as lazy and uninformed. The solution is easy. Get our best players, including our youth, in academies and leagues overseas. To be the best, you have to train, get coached, and play against the best. Pulisic provided the blueprint. I expect more kids to follow. (the eu dual passport is a loophole many can utilize). We don't need the best athletes US has to offer(ie. the lebron's of the world), we just need the best soccer players to learn the game the right way.

In terms of identifying talent, soccer is no different than any other sport. My son plays u9 on a fairly competitive team. Most are really good athletes for their age. One is an exceptional soccer player. He moves different than the rest on the field, he sees the game different, his touch is different, etc. etc. etc. It would take anyone who knows a bit about the game 5 minutes of watching kids play to point out soccer talents vs. good athletes. We need to promote those kids. Even on the youth level, I feel things are getting better which all points up for the future of US soccer. If there was a bottom, this was it.

 

[UConNick]

I am far more optimistic about the future of US soccer than most. I find the argument that it is a pay for play, rich kid sport as lazy and uninformed. The solution is easy. Get our best players, including our youth, in academies and leagues overseas. To be the best, you have to train, get coached, and play against the best. Pulisic provided the blueprint. I expect more kids to follow. (the eu dual passport is a loophole many can utilize). We don't need the best athletes US has to offer(ie. the lebron's of the world), we just need the best soccer players to learn the game the right way.

In terms of identifying talent, soccer is no different than any other sport. My son plays u9 on a fairly competitive team. Most are really good athletes for their age. One is an exceptional soccer player. He moves different than the rest on the field, he sees the game different, his touch is different, etc. etc. etc. It would take anyone who knows a bit about the game 5 minutes of watching kids play to point out soccer talents vs. good athletes. We need to promote those kids. Even on the youth level, I feel things are getting better which all points up for the future of US soccer. If there was a bottom, this was it.

I completely agree. I was going to get into this during my Pulisic post but thought against it. He's great because he went to Europe at age 16 and had almost two years of academy experience before even playing for Dortmund. That is what we need. It's why I love tracking kids like Konrad De la Fuente (born 2001, major star in freakin Barcelona's youth academy; imo he's got as good a shot as any to be a starting striker at the 2022 WC). As of now, I don't see the desire nor commitment to changing the incorrect ways we train our kids. So, they're better off in Europe from as young an age as possible. Can this change? Certainly. And I hope so soon. If US soccer and MLS wanted to reform themselves, I don't doubt the MLS could one day approach high-end European leagues in talent.

 

[superjohn]

I am far more optimistic about the future of US soccer than most. I find the argument that it is a pay for play, rich kid sport as lazy and uninformed. The solution is easy. Get our best players, including our youth, in academies and leagues overseas. To be the best, you have to train, get coached, and play against the best. Pulisic provided the blueprint. I expect more kids to follow. (the eu dual passport is a loophole many can utilize). We don't need the best athletes US has to offer(ie. the lebron's of the world), we just need the best soccer players to learn the game the right way.

In terms of identifying talent, soccer is no different than any other sport. My son plays u9 on a fairly competitive team. Most are really good athletes for their age. One is an exceptional soccer player. He moves different than the rest on the field, he sees the game different, his touch is different, etc. etc. etc. It would take anyone who knows a bit about the game 5 minutes of watching kids play to point out soccer talents vs. good athletes. We need to promote those kids. Even on the youth level, I feel things are getting better which all points up for the future of US soccer. If there was a bottom, this was it.

Sorry brother but they are 8 year olds. You can't tell if they are going to be great athletes or even good athletes.

 

[djct1999]

Sorry brother but they are 8 year olds. You can't tell if they are going to be great athletes or even good athletes.

What do you think these pro clubs and these academies do overseas? You can identify almost immediately gifted soccer players versus good athletes. Sure, they may not project out, but like the rest of the world, I'd take my chances on those kids. Just like certain kids on the AAU circuit, there is a noticeable difference between potential elite talent vs everyone else.

 

[djct1999]

I completely agree. I was going to get into this during my Pulisic post but thought against it. He's great because he went to Europe at age 16 and had almost two years of academy experience before even playing for Dortmund. That is what we need. It's why I love tracking kids like Konrad De la Fuente (born 2001, major star in freakin Barcelona's youth academy; imo he's got as good a shot as any to be a starting striker at the 2022 WC). As of now, I don't see the desire nor commitment to changing the incorrect ways we train our kids. So, they're better off in Europe from as young an age as possible. Can this change? Certainly. And I hope so soon. If US soccer and MLS wanted to reform themselves, I don't doubt the MLS could one day approach high-end European leagues in talent.

Yep, Messi became elite in Barcelona. Who knows what he would have become if he stayed in Argentina past 13.

Full disclosure, I felt Klinsmann did more good than bad for US soccer. Despite his many flaws, he had the right mindset. I pray the next coach is international. The Bruce Arena, Bob Bradley's of the world won't move us forward.

 

[superjohn]

What do you think these pro clubs and these academies do overseas? You can identify almost immediately gifted soccer players versus good athletes. Sure, they may not project out, but like the rest of the world, I'd take my chances on those kids. Just like certain kids on the AAU circuit, there is a noticeable difference between potential elite talent vs everyone else.

If you think you can tell who is going to be a great athlete or great soccer player with second graders I don't know what to tell you. You know what they do, they look at the parents.

 

[LIuconn]

Lionel Messi wouldn't be able to play in an American major pro sport in the USA - maybe NHL (Martin St Louis?)

What makes him special is his spacial awareness, game-reading ability, touch and precision with the ball, etc. + speed and strength, but that always comes as kids mature.

This goes back to how we used to/maybe still train our kids - 11 v 11 on big fields. Speed and athleticism always win.

Look at how France or any of these top performing teams play along the sidelines in tight spaces. They can keep possession and create dangerous situations from nothing. It's mesmerizing, and something we as a NT haven't been able to string together.

 

[djct1999]

If you think you can tell who is going to be a great athlete or great soccer player with second graders I don't know what to tell you. You know what they do, they look at the parents.

Honestly, if you look at all third grader soccer players and can't distinguish a difference in potential ability, you must not know enough about soccer. No one can predict the future, but I know with confidence that I can watch different 9 year olds play and I can project out who has a higher probability of being great.

 

[superjohn]

Lionel Messi wouldn't be able to play in an American major pro sport in the USA - maybe NHL (Martin St Louis?)

What makes him special is his spacial awareness, game-reading ability, touch and precision with the ball, etc. + speed and strength, but that always comes as kids mature.

This goes back to how we used to/maybe still train our kids - 11 v 11 on big fields. Speed and athleticism always win.

Look at how France or any of these top performing teams play along the sidelines in tight spaces. They can keep possession and create dangerous situations from nothing. It's mesmerizing, and something we as a NT haven't been able to string together.

Watch "Remember When Freddy Adu Was Better Than Messi?" on YouTube