WNBA Arike Ogunbowale: Odyssey Sims redux?

[SVCBeercats]

Were their college games similar? Both in college were 5'8" tall. Apparently Sims grew 2 inches while in the WNBA. To me both had similar games. Neither seemed to be a team player in college. Sims is a not a star in the WNBA. Will Ogunbowale be a star? Strong contributor? Starter? 6th woman? Will she attract as many fouls in the full contact WNBA?

 

[IrishTiger]

Were their college games similar? Both in college were 5'8" tall. Apparently Sims grew 2 inches while in the WNBA. To me both had similar games. Neither seemed to be a team player in college. Sims is a not a star in the WNBA. Will Ogunbowale be a star? Strong contributor? Starter? 6th woman? Will she attract as many fouls in the full contact WNBA?

To say She wasn’t a team player seems to be a misconception that simply isn’t true.

 

[SVCBeercats]

To say She wasn’t a team player seems to be a misconception that simply isn’t true.

OK! Fair enough. Ball hog.

 

[Orangutan]

They brought this up on "Championship Talk with Dee & Sue" during the UConn-ND game. Michaela Mabrey offered Chelsea Gray as a comp for Arike. Sue said her comp was Cappie, which the others all agreed was apt.

I had thought Cappie or maybe Epiphanny Prince myself even before that.

It was pointed out to me earlier this season that prime Cappie was a better defender than Arike. Which is probably true but there are two counterpoints to that.

First, I think Arike is decent on defense when she wants to be. Arike got away with mediocre defensive effort at ND because McGraw felt she had to accept the trade-off of her resting on D occasionally because she was carrying a huge offensive burden. I can't pull up a quote to support that but I remember press conferences where McGraw basically admitted that. But she isn't going to be asked to play the whole game as a rookie pro.

Second, I'm more familiar with 2015-2016 Chicago Sky Cappie. That version of Cappie was an effective player but no one's idea of a good defender.

At worst, Arike is a spark plug off the bench on the next level that helps carry the offense of your second unit.

At best, she's an all-star. She has a rare ability to create her own shot and can score at every level. She also improved greatly over her time at ND at creating for others.

 

[IrishTiger]

OK! Fair enough. Ball hog.

That’s also a misconception. Haha. Just go look at her assists number this year.

 

[bballnut90]

Were their college games similar? Both in college were 5'8" tall. Apparently Sims grew 2 inches while in the WNBA. To me both had similar games. Neither seemed to be a team player in college. Sims is a not a star in the WNBA. Will Ogunbowale be a star? Strong contributor? Starter? 6th woman? Will she attract as many fouls in the full contact WNBA?

Very similar style of play to Cappie. She'll be a lot better than Sims has shown IMO. Likely comes off the bench as a rookie. Her shot selection (and defensive effort) will both improve in the pros because as a rookie she'll have to work her butt off to prove herself and earn PT. Much different than at ND where she top dog this past year. We saw a similar transition with Diamond Deshields at Chicago where she cleaned up a lot of the mistakes we saw at Tennessee.

People don't love AO on here, but she's a lot better than most give her credit for. Compared to Durr she averaged more points, rebounds, assists and steals, was a higher percentage shooter from the floor and from 3, and had a better A/TO ratio. All against a more difficult schedule too. People have no problem praising Durr but seem to go out of the way to make jabs at AO or diminish her accomplishments.

 

[IrishTiger]

Very similar style of play to Cappie. She'll be a lot better than Sims has shown IMO. Likely comes off the bench as a rookie. Her shot selection (and defensive effort) will both improve in the pros because as a rookie she'll have to work her butt off to prove herself and earn PT. Much different than at ND where she top dog this past year. We saw a similar transition with Diamond Deshields at Chicago where she cleaned up a lot of the mistakes we saw at Tennessee.

People don't love AO on here, but she's a lot better than most give her credit for. Compared to Durr she averaged more points, rebounds, assists and steals, was a higher percentage shooter from the floor and from 3, and had a better A/TO ratio. All against a more difficult schedule too. People have no problem praising Durr but seem to go out of the way to make jabs at AO or diminish her accomplishments.

People don’t recognize that Arike is a better player then Durr because of the way She has acted at times. So people instead have a very skewed bias.

 

[j66kicker]

People don’t recognize that Arike is a better player then Durr because of the way She has acted at times. So people instead have a very skewed bias.

Correct. We just don't like Arike.

Durr is very likable. (And a better player than Arike )

 

[triaddukefan]

They brought this up on "Championship Talk with Dee & Sue" during the UConn-ND game. Michaela Mabrey offered Chelsea Gray as a comp for Arike. Sue said her comp was Cappie, which the others all agreed was apt.

Was she drinking?

 

[Orangutan]

Was she drinking? View attachment 42137View attachment 42137View attachment 42137View attachment 42137

Yeah, that comparison didn't make sense to me either.

 

[DeeHusky]

Two totally different games. Odyssey may not be a star, but she was d* good player for Dallas/Tulsa. She hasn't and probably won't get the opportunity to be a star in LA. Everything goes through Nneka/Parker and now Chelsea Gray. For three years Odyssey had to pass the ball to Griner at Baylor. That final year when she had to score 1,000 points in a season there wasn't much talent besides her on the team and I'm sure she still averaged a pretty good amount of assists. Ogunbowale on the other hand, it's pretty clear she wants to score before she gets an assist. These are two totally different players. Sims is not the shooter and play maker that Ogunbowale is and Ogunbowale is not the penetrator and finisher around the rim that sims is.

 

[LesMis89]

Re Durr vs AO - seems like it isn't only UConn fans who prefer Durr. After all, she is the two-time ACC Player of the Year

 

[j66kicker]

Re Durr vs AO - seems like it isn't only UConn fans who prefer Durr. After all, she is the two-time ACC Player of the Year

NY Liberty just cast their vote

 

[triaddukefan]

Re Durr vs AO - seems like it isn't only UConn fans who prefer Durr. After all, she is the two-time ACC Player of the Year

Should have been one time ACC player of the year.... but I didnt get a vote.

 

[willtalk]

Was she drinking? View attachment 42137View attachment 42137View attachment 42137View attachment 42137

It might be that she was focusd on and referring to their being able to create their own shots and taking the last second shot. As too the other parts of their games there is no comparison between Chelsea and Arika.

 

[Alydar]

People don’t recognize that Arike is a better player then Durr because of the way She has acted at times. So people instead have a very skewed bias.

My dislike for AO is all about the character issue. Her talent and clutch play is obvious.

 

[willtalk]

I don't know if her value as a player who can create and score will translate to the next level. There are a quite a bit more players like her in the WNBA who also play defense. If she is ever forced to play defense what effect will it have on her offense?

I also do not see much simularity between her an Sims. Although it did not translate to the pro's, Sims had a reputation as a good defender coming out of College. Arika certainly does not. She can also be quite streaky and when she isn't shooting well what else does she have to offer?

 

[IrishTiger]

I don't know if her value as a player who can create and score will translate to the next level. There are a quite a bit more players like her in the WNBA who also play defense. If she is ever forced to play defense what effect will it have on her offense?

I also do not see much simularity between her an Sims. Although it did not translate to the pro's, Sims had a reputation as a good defender coming out of College. Arika certainly does not. She can also be quite streaky and when she isn't shooting well what else does she have to offer?

I think She can be a good defender and I think Her game will translate well. She can off quite a bit she can drive, has a good mid range game and can shoot the 3. She’s a dynamic offensive player. It’s not like she’s one dimensional on Offense because She’s not and she can also create Her own shot. Plus being for Her size she’s well built so she can finish with contact. But hey I could be wrong about how She’ll do.

 

[bballnut90]

I don't know if her value as a player who can create and score will translate to the next level. There are a quite a bit more players like her in the WNBA who also play defense. If she is ever forced to play defense what effect will it have on her offense?

I also do not see much simularity between her an Sims. Although it did not translate to the pro's, Sims had a reputation as a good defender coming out of College. Arika certainly does not. She can also be quite streaky and when she isn't shooting well what else does she have to offer?

Arike is a fantastic passer and was one of the best transition players in America. Great speed and very powerful as a 5-8 guard. Rebounds well and starts the break. Shes much more than just a good scorer even if her ability to score is her best attribute.

 

[stick]

At least during college, Sims was a much better shooter, penetrator, passer, defender and athlete than Arike and be able to play both guard positions. Aside from being a clutch player, I don't see how Arike can be a starter at 5'8" when she can't play PG in the WNBA. She can definitely be a 2nd unit sparkplug off the bench, though.

 

[IrishTiger]

Arike is a fantastic passer and was one of the best transition players in America. Great speed and very powerful as a 5-8 guard. Rebounds well and starts the break. Shes much more than just a good scorer even if her ability to score is her best attribute.

Explained better then me. Thanks

 

[bballnut90]

At least during college, Sims was a much better shooter, penetrator, passer, defender and athlete than Arike and be able to play both guard positions. Aside from being a clutch player, I don't see how Arike can be a starter at 5'8" when she can't play PG in the WNBA. She can definitely be a 2nd unit sparkplug off the bench, though.

"Much" better is definitely a stretch in regards to passing, shooting and overall athleticism. They're different players with different skill sets to the comparison isn't a good one. AO is a much more physical player than Sims (has probably 20 lbs on her) and a faster release that will allow her to get her shot off quickly. Sims struggles shooting off the bounce, especially from mid range or from the perimeter. She's best taking a set shot or driving to the basket and hitting layups. AO's bread and butter is coming off screens for open midrange jumpers, catch and shoot or off the dribble. This will suit her well, similar to how it has suited Cappie very well. Best case scenario she's another Cappie Pondexter....I think the comparison is very accurate in terms of how they play. Worst case scenario she's another Riquna Williams. Realistically she probably ends up somewhere in the middle.

 

[Dillon77]

At least during college, Sims was a much better shooter, penetrator, passer, defender and athlete than Arike and be able to play both guard positions. Aside from being a clutch player, I don't see how Arike can be a starter at 5'8" when she can't play PG in the WNBA. She can definitely be a 2nd unit sparkplug off the bench, though.

"Much" better is definitely a stretch in regards to passing, shooting and overall athleticism. They're different players with different skill sets to the comparison isn't a good one. AO is a much more physical player than Sims (has probably 20 lbs on her) and a faster release that will allow her to get her shot off quickly. Sims struggles shooting off the bounce, especially from mid range or from the perimeter. She's best taking a set shot or driving to the basket and hitting layups. AO's bread and butter is coming off screens for open midrange jumpers, catch and shoot or off the dribble. This will suit her well, similar to how it has suited Cappie very well. Best case scenario she's another Cappie Pondexter....I think the comparison is very accurate in terms of how they play. Worst case scenario she's another Riquna Williams. Realistically she probably ends up somewhere in the middle.

Two of the aspects of Arike's game that I've come to appreciate are her explosiveness and the speed at which she can play at. Kara Lawson has brought up time and time again how hard and fast she explodes into the lane when coming from the wing, whether dribbling on a drive or cutting off a screen.

And her ability to drive full-throttle down court on fast breaks is stunning in person. Interestingly, her best passing may come when she's in fifth gear off the break. And the person on the receiving end of those passes was often Jackie Young who glides, even at fast speeds.

This athletic ability either translates/comes from her ability to play other sports, notably soccer. She led her teams to Wisconsin state titles and was recruited by D1 schools. Ironically, one of the D1 schools that recruited her for soccer was Baylor, home school of Ms. Sims! Life has some small circles.

 

[Undercovervol]

Sims has also not played as well since the Sparks' championship year. Her offense has been really down for 2 years.
Arike has all the potential to be an all star at the WNBA level. I think she's better than Durr, though Durr obviously has a more pro-level frame (not by a wide margin). Although Arike can be streaky, I think she's still a better pure shooter than Durr.
The most interesting player to watch is Young. Will she be worth the #1 pick? I agree that she has every potential to be a dynamic 2 guard or wing player. She will have to develop a pull up game and shoot the 3 consistently.

 

[bballnut90]

Sims has also not played as well since the Sparks' championship year. Her offense has been really down for 2 years.
Arike has all the potential to be an all star at the WNBA level. I think she's better than Durr, though Durr obviously has a more pro-level frame (not by a wide margin). Although Arike can be streaky, I think she's still a better pure shooter than Durr.
The most interesting player to watch is Young. Will she be worth the #1 pick? I agree that she has every potential to be a dynamic 2 guard or wing player. She will have to develop a pull up game and shoot the 3 consistently.

Sims has only played for LA after they got the title in 2016. She was actually really good during their runner up finish in the playoffs 2017 but was inconsistent during the regular season and was bad last year.

In regards to Young, she is going to look weak as a #1 compared to most other #1 picks but she should be a safe bet to have a successful career. She isnt going to be a franchise player but can shine as a "make all the little plays" type of player that title teams need. Vegas didnt need a franchise player and this draft doesnt appear to have one, so it is the right pick for Vegas even if she never becomes an All-WNBA type of player.

 

[eebmg]

Was she drinking?

not till later.

 

[willtalk]

Sims has only played for LA after they got the title in 2016. She was actually really good during their runner up finish in the playoffs 2017 but was inconsistent during the regular season and was bad last year..

My take on the difference in production and level of play between those seasons was Sims role on the team. In the later season, Parker reverted to handling the ball more and that left far less time that Sims had the ball in her hands. Sims is not as effective off the ball. I think Parkers decision to become more ball dominant while increasing her own stats, hurt the effectiveness of the team in general. As another poster mentioned Sims strength is driving to the hoop. In respect to other aspects of her game, I believe she has a poor peripheral vision which affects both her defense on screens and switches and often gets her in trouble on her drives on offense vial her failure to see defenders or kick out options to her side.

Now Arika might certainly have a greater potential defensively than Sims, the applicable word is potential. Her defensive liabilities in college appear to be because of a lack of her lack of effort. But it is often very difficult for players to change long-established habits overnight. And who knows - If she suddenly has to expend energy on defense how it will affect what she has left for the offense. There are many players who dog it on one end of the floor to save themselves for the other end. The question is if Arika will be so effective on offense that teams will believe the negative trade-off on defense is worth it.

 

[bballnut90]

My take on the difference in production and level of play between those seasons was Sims role on the team. In the later season, Parker reverted to handling the ball more and that left far less time that Sims had the ball in her hands. Sims is not as effective off the ball. I think Parkers decision to become more ball dominant while increasing her own stats, hurt the effectiveness of the team in general. As another poster mentioned Sims strength is driving to the hoop. In respect to other aspects of her game, I believe she has a poor peripheral vision which affects both her defense on screens and switches and often gets her in trouble on her drives on offense vial her failure to see defenders or kick out options to her side.

Now Arika might certainly have a greater potential defensively than Sims, the applicable word is potential. Her defensive liabilities in college appear to be because of a lack of her lack of effort. But it is often very difficult for players to change long-established habits overnight. And who knows - If she suddenly has to expend energy on defense how it will affect what she has left for the offense. There are many players who dog it on one end of the floor to save themselves for the other end. The question is if Arika will be so effective on offense that teams will believe the negative trade-off on defense is worth it.

It's Arike** and I don't think she gets much PT unless she defends better than she did at ND, so we'll likely see better effort out of her. Granted, lots of players are incredibly lazy defenders in the W so we'll see if that actually happens or not. Plus Dallas looks awful this year without Diggins/Cambage so Dallas may need her out there even if she plays poor defense.

Sims had an injury or 2 that really slowed her down IIRC. Hasn't had the same zip and quickness that she used to earlier in her career. Her shooting touch has completely disappeared. A lot of that might be due to her playing off the ball, but she shouldn't be running the offense when LA has Parker and Gray. Parker is the Sparks best passer (and one of the best in the league) so her operating out of the high post wasn't a bad move IMO. She's extremely effective too when she drives to the basket or posts up down low, but is prone to playing passively and settling for perimeter shots rather than battling down low. A combination of playing at the high post and on the block would be the best choice IMO. Not sure if her playing on the perimeter is more of Candace's decision or Agler's. Interested in see how the team does under Fisher.

 

[willtalk]

It's Arike**.
Sims had an injury or 2 that really slowed her down IIRC. Hasn't had the same zip and quickness that she used to earlier in her career. Her shooting touch has completely disappeared. A lot of that might be due to her playing off the ball, but she shouldn't be running the offense when LA has Parker and Gray. Parker is the Sparks best passer (and one of the best in the league) so her operating out of the high post wasn't a bad move IMO. She's extremely effective too when she drives to the basket or posts up down low, but is prone to playing passively and settling for perimeter shots rather than battling down low. A combination of playing at the high post and on the block would be the best choice IMO. Not sure if her playing on the perimeter is more of Candace's decision or Agler's. Interested in see how the team does under Fisher.

I am just a horrible speller ( especially with Names ) and I have just accepted that. Next time I will probably misspell her name again. You knew who I meant so I don't bother looking it up to spell it correctly.

In respect to Sims you might be right in respect to her offense, but her defense has less to do with her lack of speed. Rather she loses sight of her assignment on the floor, especially off picks or screens. I suspect it might be a peripheral vision issue. More players than one might think have that issue plague them in basketball.

As to Parker. She is not really that good of a distributor in the half court game. She tends to predetermine where she will be going with the ball rather than adjusting to the defensive openings. Her strength is at the two-man game, especially with Nneka . If they get Cambage should also apply to her. The offense runs better with Sims handling the ball more instead of Parker. Sims is better at creating off the dribble than Parker. As I stated before, Parker tends to make up her mind about what she wants to do rather than react to the flow of the game. When she is on and her shots are dropping her dominating the ball is all good. But when they are not she hinders offensive flow.

Now lets deal with your statement that Parker is the best passer on the team. Not hardly! Gray is not only the best passer on the team, she is the best passer in the league and but possibly as good as there might be in all of basketball. Not only is she an elite passer but she also has exceptional BBIQ, which is one thing that Parker often lacks. Gray also sees the entire court which allows her to get the ball to any player on the floor no matter where they are on the court.

Parker is certainly a good passer. Probably better than Sims or many other players playing the point in the WNBA. What helps her in this respect is her length. She can pass over most people. This is what makes her dangerous in her two-man game with a post player. Her predetermined commitment to that sort of play does not hinder her effectiveness. However, when she is not stationary in the half court she will commit either to finishing her drive or a predetermined assist rather than being flexible to other options as they occur. I noticed last season when Nneka was off the floor she had trouble running half-court sets. She is not a point guard who can consistently create opportunities for other players off the dribble in the half court as she most certainly is able to do on fast breaks.

 

[bballnut90]

I am just a horrible speller ( especially with Names ) and I have just accepted that. Next time I will probably misspell her name again. You knew who I meant so I don't bother looking it up to spell it correctly.

In respect to Sims you might be right in respect to her offense, but her defense has less to do with her lack of speed. Rather she loses sight of her assignment on the floor, especially off picks or screens. I suspect it might be a peripheral vision issue. More players than one might think have that issue plague them in basketball.

As to Parker. She is not really that good of a distributor in the half court game. She tends to predetermine where she will be going with the ball rather than adjusting to the defensive openings. Her strength is at the two-man game, especially with Nneka . If they get Cambage should also apply to her. The offense runs better with Sims handling the ball more instead of Parker. Sims is better at creating off the dribble than Parker. As I stated before, Parker tends to make up her mind about what she wants to do rather than react to the flow of the game. When she is on and her shots are dropping her dominating the ball is all good. But when they are not she hinders offensive flow.

Now lets deal with your statement that Parker is the best passer on the team. Not hardly! Gray is not only the best passer on the team, she is the best passer in the league and but possibly as good as there might be in all of basketball. Not only is she an elite passer but she also has exceptional BBIQ, which is one thing that Parker often lacks. Gray also sees the entire court which allows her to get the ball to any player on the floor no matter where they are on the court.

Parker is certainly a good passer. Probably better than Sims or many other players playing the point in the WNBA. What helps her in this respect is her length. She can pass over most people. This is what makes her dangerous in her two-man game with a post player. Her predetermined commitment to that sort of play does not hinder her effectiveness. However, when she is not stationary in the half court she will commit either to finishing her drive or a predetermined assist rather than being flexible to other options as they occur. I noticed last season when Nneka was off the floor she had trouble running half-court sets. She is not a point guard who can consistently create opportunities for other players off the dribble in the half court as she most certainly is able to do on fast breaks.

Parker is one of the best passers and highest IQ players in the league. Gray is great too. She's flashier but I think Candace is better. That said, Candace isn't a PG. When Parker drives, she's going to the basket to score since it means she usually has a defender on her who is slower or smaller than her. She is extremely effective when she's aggressively attacking the basket. No need to find teammates since she's 6-4 and within a few feet of the run. Problem is, she doesnt do this frequently enough and is content settling for perimeter shots.

In a half court set, she runs the high low with Nneka better than anyone. She also has excellent vision and finds her teammates spotting up in corners or making cuts along the baseline for easy layups. It is much more than just her and Nneka.

She is also better than anyone at passing the ball to a wing, posting hard to establish position which creates a great angle for an easy entry pass from the wing and getting the ball deep on the block. Her recognition and court awareness are top notch.

She doesnt create for others off the dribble but shes among the best at passing from the high post, low post and on the fast break. People may not like Parker but to say she is anything but a very elite passer is incorrect.