Why UConn will leave the NNBE at the first opportunity

[Rumrunner]

"The truth is that our teams will play competitive athletics at the highest level of excellence, wherever things land, and our central goals will be academic success and compliance, always."

Susan Herbst

President
The University of Connecticut

September 18, 2011

 

[Rumrunner]

I'm sure it's a whole lot less palatable.

Notre Dame is a catholic institution that joined the BE, which has, and had, many other catholic institutions. Those schools are quite good academically (Georgetown, Villanova). They were also in a conference with strong universities like Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, Rutgers. I'm sure its a little less palatable right now.

 

[CTMike]

A really lengthy thread where all that was necessary was to say to the OP "spot on observations."

 

[Adios]

We'll see. If we get at least an $18 million a year contract for each school, this conference is staying together. The ACC is at about $12 million right now.

 

[Adios]

I must have missed the part where Notre Dame was in the Big East for football. But let me ask- since they are independent and can play anyone they want, how often have they played the "prestigious institutions" of SMU, Houston and Boise???

By the way, you sure make a lot of random tangential points. Not sure where you're going to go next.

They played USF this season. You must have forgotten.

 

[junglehusky]

They played USF this season. You must have forgotten.

Heh, another unrelated tangent. (Or was that on purpose? I honestly can't tell.) I was not asking about current BE teams they played, I was asking about the potential replacements you hold in such high esteem.

 

[ctchamps]

I'll say it again - even if we have a better payout from the NNBE, which is unlikely, we will still leave that league behind for non-football reasons. Even if the NNBE becomes on par with the B12 or Pac12 in football and the ACC becomes the worst BCS conference we would still leave for the ACC for non-football reasons. The only thing that will change that is if Houston, SMU, WVU, Boise and the rest of the lot surpass the ACC teams in academics, which is not going to happen. Revenue and football may drive the national expansion picture, but are less primary for UConn (and, for that matter, for Rutgers, Notre Dame, Pitt and SU) where stability and academics are given a little more weight.

And as far as football goes, I am highly skeptical that SMU/Houston will be anything better than average in the NNBE. They may do OK record-wise in the league but I doubt they will go out and get OOC wins the way WVU did when we needed them to, or (for example) USF beating Auburn on the road.

I'm not sure the ACC is stable. It is between the B12 and the ACC who will hold court if the four super conference model plays out.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm not sure the ACC is stable. It is between the B12 and the ACC who will hold court if the four super conference model plays out.

Because the PAC only can really add schools in the central US (Texas, OU, etc.), I'm going to suggest that the Big XII is, ultimately, more vulnerable than the ACC, unless the B1G and SEC both come at the ACC.

 

[ctchamps]

Because the PAC only can really add schools in the central US (Texas, OU, etc.), I'm going to suggest that the Big XII is, ultimately, more vulnerable than the ACC, unless the B1G and SEC both come at the ACC.

And the B!G and SEC going after the ACC is a distinct possibility. List the 16 teams that ultimately will end in the PAC, B!G and SEC and you will have huge holes in the ACC and B!G and therefore neither conference is stable. So I don't see how rushing to the ACC is taking a stable course of action unless the three stable conferences sign a legal document saying they are not going to 16 teams. UConn could literally be jumping from the frying pan to the fire by going to the ACC.

IMO arguing about the NBE and the ACC is arguing about which type of violent death you prefer regarding football. In the end I see UConn in either a bb conference of the mid atlantic or a bb conference of the north east/central.

 

[Adios]

Heh, another unrelated tangent. (Or was that on purpose? I honestly can't tell.) I was not asking about current BE teams they played, I was asking about the potential replacements you hold in such high esteem.

I was just saying they'll probably play the schools, regardless. The only reason I hold the schools in "such high esteem" is because of the pipelines that open up for us in recruiting for football.

Regarding academic rankings:

UCF: http://today.ucf.edu/ucf-earns-a-top-5-u-s-news-ranking/

SMU: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/smu-3613

UH: http://mup.asu.edu/research2010.pdf

UH is ranked amongst the top 50 national research universities. SMU ranks higher than Rutgers.

USF is ranked #181 in the country.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/usf-1537

UCF is ranked #177 right now.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/ucf-3954

Cincinnati is #143.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-cincinnati-3125

Louisville is #164.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-louisville-1999

The Naval Academy and Air Force Academy are very, very selective.

 

[junglehusky]

Not that USN & WR is the be all and end all, but just for comparison:

Duke #10
UVa #25
UNC #29
Maryland #55
Pitt #58
UConn #58

See my point?

(by the way... Houston is not listed in the national rankings, and Boise is classified as a regional school. Though thanks for bringing UH's research budget, I didn't know that. I googled around a bit and found this on the efforts of several Texas U's plans to compete for more funding)

 

[Rumrunner]

US News Rankings of proposed Big East football

UConn #58
SMU #62
Rutgers #68

Cincy #143
L'ville #164
WVU #164
UCF # 177
USF # 184
Houston #267 (ranking from full site)
Boise out in Devry Institute of Technology land

Average in ACC # 51, worst school FSU, NC St #101
Big 10 average # 56, worst school Nebraska #101
Big 12 average #90, worst school TTech #160
SEC average #99, worst school Miss St #157

Big East on a whole different level. A very very bad level.

Big East average
#176

There is no defense to how bad the academics would be. None.

Houston is a commuter school. It has zero academic prestige. Affectionately known as Cougar High.

 

[arnie3]

And the B!G and SEC going after the ACC is a distinct possibility. List the 16 teams that ultimately will end in the PAC, B!G and SEC and you will have huge holes in the ACC and B!G and therefore neither conference is stable. So I don't see how rushing to the ACC is taking a stable course of action unless the three stable conferences sign a legal document saying they are not going to 16 teams. UConn could literally be jumping from the frying pan to the fire by going to the ACC.

IMO arguing about the NBE and the ACC is arguing about which type of violent death you prefer regarding football. In the end I see UConn in either a bb conference of the mid atlantic or a bb conference of the north east/central.

I believe that you are right. Everyone wants a quick fix, but this thing won't play out for a long time!

 

[ctchamps]

Can anyone show me the research regarding a conference affiliation's having an influence on academics? Outside of some sort of bragging rights, what does UConn's playing Syracuse or USF in football or basketball or water polo, have anything to do with any academic ratings?

Is the AAU influenced by athletics?

 

[HuskyHawk]

US News Rankings of proposed Big East football

UConn #58
SMU #62
Rutgers #68

Cincy #143
L'ville #164
WVU #164
UCF # 177
USF # 184
Houston #267
Boise out in Devry Institute of Technology land

Average in ACC # 51, worst school FSU, NC St #101
Big 10 average # 56, worst school Nebraska #101
Big 12 average #90, worst school TTech #160
SEC average #99, worst school Miss St #157

Big East on a whole different level. A very very bad level.

Big East average
#176

There is no defense to how bad the academics would be. None.

BE average

I've only been saying this for two weeks now. Glad to see more people embracing it. I don't much like the idea of the BE as a life boat. We may end up living in this life boat for a long time. The reason we went D1A was to hob nob with schools like UVA that some on this thread denigrate.

Nobody gives a crap how good UVAs football team is. They are consistently one of the 2-3 best public universities in the nation, and everybody would want them. SEC, ACC, B1G. They have some basketball success, and good soccer. Yet somebody posted that if the NBE brought in $18m a year per school it would stay together? What? You think these schools care about a couple million a year? That's a pittance. It could be $30m a year and we'd leave for a more academically prestigious league. Why do you think Missouri has been begging for a B1G invite, but hesitates on the SEC? The SEC is at best lateral and at worst a downgrade academically. Mizzou in the B1G would be a big academic upgrade. The money is not really significant. The reputation is what they wanted. It's something Nebraska got in switching and Colorado as well. So did Pitt and Cuse.

 

[Adios]

Not that USN & WR is the be all and end all, but just for comparison:

Duke #10
UVa #25
UNC #29
Maryland #55
Pitt #58
UConn #58

See my point?

(by the way... Houston is not listed in the national rankings, and Boise is classified as a regional school. Though thanks for bringing UH's research budget, I didn't know that. I googled around a bit and found this on the efforts of several Texas U's plans to compete for more funding)

I know what your point was. I am just saying the schools in the new Big East can improve quite a bit and I am sure are intent on doing so. They are using this conference to help achieve that, just as big time college athletics helped put us on the map. And a LOT more can still be achieved in football with the hand of cards we have been dealt. This conference will now have a direct presence in 5 out of the 10 largest cities in the US. As far as metropolitan areas go, we'll have a presence in 6 of the top 10, while the ACC will have a presence in 4 of the top ten (I am including Syracuse for NYC). Here's the rest of the list.

http://geography.about.com/od/lists/a/csa2005.htm

 

[Adios]

https://infocus.credit-suisse.com/app/article/index.cfm?fuseaction=OpenArticle&aoid=291633&lang=EN

The Trend Toward Urbanization Appears Unstoppable



Giles Keating, Credit Suisse Head of Global Research


14.10.2010 In the advanced countries, 80 percent of the population lives in urban centers. Worldwide the share is 50 percent, and by 2050 it will likely be two thirds. The trend toward urbanization appears unstoppable. Why so?


If you people prefer the farms of the SEC and Big XII, enjoy yourselves.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

US News Rankings of proposed Big East football

UConn #58
SMU #62
Rutgers #68

Cincy #143
L'ville #164
WVU #164
UCF # 177
USF # 184
Houston #267 (ranking from full site)
Boise out in Devry Institute of Technology land

Average in ACC # 51, worst school FSU, NC St #101
Big 10 average # 56, worst school Nebraska #101
Big 12 average #90, worst school TTech #160
SEC average #99, worst school Miss St #157

Big East on a whole different level. A very very bad level.

Big East average
#176

There is no defense to how bad the academics would be. None.

Houston is a commuter school. It has zero academic prestige. Affectionately known as Cougar High.

BE is a hybrid though. So I'm just wondering if you have any idea what the average would be factoring in the basketball schools and Notre Dame. I'm sure it would be much better but how much I have no idea. Nova is #1 in regional and Georgetown is #22 nationally. Marquette #82, St. John's #152, DePaul #132, Seton Hall is #132, Providence #4 regional, ND #19 nationally. I don't feel like figuring out the averages and don't know how to factor for regional vs. national but Nova, Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Providence are elite schools. Marquette is respectable. Taken as a whole the BE would not be that bad academically.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I've only been saying this for two weeks now. Glad to see more people embracing it. I don't much like the idea of the BE as a life boat. We may end up living in this life boat for a long time. The reason we went D1A was to hob nob with schools like UVA that some on this thread denigrate.

Nobody gives a crap how good UVAs football team is. They are consistently one of the 2-3 best public universities in the nation, and everybody would want them. SEC, ACC, B1G. They have some basketball success, and good soccer. Yet somebody posted that if the NBE brought in $18m a year per school it would stay together? What? You think these schools care about a couple million a year? That's a pittance. It could be $30m a year and we'd leave for a more academically prestigious league. Why do you think Missouri has been begging for a B1G invite, but hesitates on the SEC? The SEC is at best lateral and at worst a downgrade academically. Mizzou in the B1G would be a big academic upgrade. The money is not really significant. The reputation is what they wanted. It's something Nebraska got in switching and Colorado as well. So did Pitt and Cuse.

You couldn't be anymore wrong. It's about football money, plain and simple.

Football fans, don't give a about conference academic affiliation, and real academics don't give a who their university plays in football.

It's so beyond ridiculous that who a school plays in football has any bearing on it's academic prestige. When they are handing out multi-million dollar research grants, do they go..hmm does UVA (Duke, UNC, whoever) really deserve this...I mean they play Florida State once a year in football! Automatically disqualified! No. A school earns its reputation on it's own merits, to think otherwise is lunacy.

 

[junglehusky]

I don't have numbers. But I think the argument is you want to be in an athletic conference with the other schools you are competing with for students. Just like the Ivies associate together because they are competing for the same pool of HS students, we would prefer to associate with ACC schools or B1G schools as part of our branding, instead of Boise or whoever.

When I was at UConn in the '90s, some of the other schools kids applied to were the SUNYs, Syracuse, BU, Penn State... I applied to some liberal arts colleges (Carnegie Mellon, Tufts, Conn College, Brandeis) but went to UConn for the cheaper tuition. UConn over the years has increased the # of valedictorians that enroll... the idea is to continue that further by being in a league with the Dukes or UVAs so that more of those elite HS kids will consider UConn as being on par.

ConnHuskBask is partially right that there's much more to prestige than sports conferences (see: MIT, NYU, U. Chicago) but for state schools, sports are part of a school's image, especially when it comes to impressionable high school kids applying for college.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I don't have numbers. But I think the argument is you want to be in an athletic conference with the other schools you are competing with for students. Just like the Ivies associate together because they are competing for the same pool of HS students, we would prefer to associate with ACC schools or B1G schools as part of our branding, instead of Boise or whoever.

When I was at UConn in the '90s, some of the other schools kids applied to were the SUNYs, Syracuse, BU, Penn State... I applied to some liberal arts colleges (Carnegie Mellon, Tufts, Conn College, Brandeis) but went to UConn for the cheaper tuition. UConn over the years has increased the # of valedictorians that enroll... the idea is to continue that further by being in a league with the Dukes or UVAs so that more of those elite HS kids will consider UConn as being on par.

ConnHuskBask is partially right that there's much more to prestige than sports conferences (see: MIT, NYU, U. Chicago) but for state schools, sports are part of a school's image, especially when it comes to impressionable high school kids applying for college.

Well, since there is nothing UConn can do about this, what's the point of worrying about it?

 

[Adios]

Personally, I think it would have been great if Pitt and Syracuse waited for this scenario to completely unfold. But it just wasn't meant to be. The way this new Big East seems is that there would be six pairs of regional rivalries, UConn-Rutgers (tri-state area market), WVU-Navy (Washington/Maryland market), Cincinnati-Louisville (Ohio River valley market), UCF-USF (urban central/western Florida market), SMU-UH (urban Texas market), and Air Force and BSU (Rockies market). From a marketing perspective, that IS better than having half your 14-school conference be in Maryland, Virginia and North Carolina. To add to those six regional rivalries, WVU also can be included in the Ohio River valley market. And everyone would also be honored to have the military academies playing them. It is also a fact known to TV execs that BSU, Navy, and Air Force have the potential to draw national audiences.

Would have been nice if Pitt and Syracuse stayed with us. But if they did, we probably wouldn't be inviting BSU and Air Force. And there would be two more basketball programs. So be it. This realignment has been total drama. But I think the plan they've conceived is incredibly clever for all schools involved. I have a friend in Orlando who is a high school football recruit analyst for FBS and FCS schools and is a Maryland alum. He even thinks this is a clever plan.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

Personally, I think it would have been great if Pitt and Syracuse waited for this scenario to completely unfold. But it just wasn't meant to be. The way this new Big East seems is that there would be six pairs of regional rivalries, UConn-Rutgers (tri-state area market), WVU-Navy (Washington/Maryland market), Cincinnati-Louisville (Ohio River valley market), UCF-USF (urban central/western Florida market), SMU-UH (urban Texas market), and Air Force and BSU (Rockies market). From a marketing perspective, that IS better than having half your 14-school conference be in Maryland, Virginia and North Carolina. To add to those six regional rivalries, WVU also can be included in the Ohio River valley market. And everyone would also be honored to have the military academies playing them. It is also a fact known to TV execs that BSU, Navy, and Air Force have the potential to draw national audiences.

Would have been nice if Pitt and Syracuse stayed with us. But if they did, we probably wouldn't be inviting BSU and Air Force. And there would be two more basketball programs. So be it. This realignment has been total drama. But I think the plan they've conceived is incredibly clever for all schools involved. I have a friend in Orlando who is a high school football recruit analyst for FBS and FCS schools and is a Maryland alum. He even thinks this is a clever plan.

Cuse and Pitt will still be here for the next two years. Whether that means anything who really knows but Marrinatto and the remaining schools do not seem inclined to let them go before 27 months is up. It's not like they have any power to just leave early. They will still be Big East members when the new TV deal is negotiated though, so no matter how unlikely it seems they could still change their mind depending on what happens with that.

 

[Adios]

Cuse and Pitt will still be here for the next two years. Whether that means anything who really knows but Marrinatto and the remaining schools do not seem inclined to let them go before 27 months is up. It's not like they have any power to just leave early. They will still be Big East members when the new TV deal is negotiated though, so no matter how unlikely it seems they could still change their mind depending on what happens with that.

Certainly would be interesting if they DID change their minds.

 

[Rumrunner]

Dear.
Lord.
Now butchy has the new new big east too good for Pitt and SU to really leave.

All because someone had the clever idea to choose the only crap remnant teams available to fill out a decimated conference.

Hey, I have an idea, Hofstra is right outside the city, let's invite them and we get the NYC market.

Next, I heard Shanghai has a lot of people that live there. Maybe university of Whackko Idea is next and the Shanghai market.

Also, let's remember to tell Slive to get rid of Auburn and Alabama cuz Allybama is a poor, low population state. No need to have the SEC so concentrated.

Now we know that butchy's real job is Special Executive Ass't in Charge of Clever Ideas for the Big East!

 

[Adios]

Go move to North Korea.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You couldn't be anymore wrong. It's about football money, plain and simple.

Football fans, don't give a about conference academic affiliation, and real academics don't give a who their university plays in football.

It's so beyond ridiculous that who a school plays in football has any bearing on it's academic prestige. When they are handing out multi-million dollar research grants, do they go..hmm does UVA (Duke, UNC, whoever) really deserve this...I mean they play Florida State once a year in football! Automatically disqualified! No. A school earns its reputation on it's own merits, to think otherwise is lunacy.

We can agree to disagree. A conference can tolerate a few weak links. A conference made up entirely of weak schools with one or two good ones? The only example I can think of is Conf-USA, where Rice is a major outlier and SMU is solid. Florida State by the way is ranked #101, higher than almost all the schools in the NBE. They would be among the best schools in the proposed NBE. You arre judged by the company you keep.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

We can agree to disagree. A conference can tolerate a few weak links. A conference made up entirely of weak schools with one or two good ones? The only example I can think of is Conf-USA, where Rice is a major outlier and SMU is solid. Florida State by the way is ranked #101, higher than almost all the schools in the NBE. They would be among the best schools in the proposed NBE. You arre judged by the company you keep.

Fair points about perception, though I tend to think its still mainly atheltic perception from conference affiliation.

Also Hawk, sorry for coming off as a . This whole conf alignment is driving me nuts!

 

[ctchamps]

Fair points about perception, though I tend to think its still mainly atheltic perception from conference affiliation.

Also Hawk, sorry for coming off as a . This whole conf alignment is driving me nuts!

I'll have to give you that "no worries be happy" pep talk again. It is difficult to be passionate about something and avoid having it overtake us.

Regarding the realignment I think this guy has it covered:



Holmoe refused to speculate on what would happen in any more conference expansion, or confirm if BYU felt if it didn't join something soon, it would be left out of so called super conferences.

"A lot of people claim they know what is going on and the fact is, they don't," he said. "I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions but nobody knows what is going on (super conferences), not even conference commissioners know."

Holmoe said the Big 12 and what it does internally is staying internal and until somebody from the Big 12 says something publicly, rumors are only speculation.

Holmoe said it is important for BYU and the Big 12 to keep its business private.

"There is a lot of misinformation out there about what is going on that is dictated by sources who are not real or who are inaccurate," he said. "If I tried to correct everything that is stated, I'd be working 24 hours a day. And if we spend time on issues that are wrong or misinformed, then we give credibility to information that is wrong."

People on this forum are passionate, but when it comes down to things all we are doing is expressing opinions. Only a few posters are acting with insecurity and insisting that they are more in the know than anyone else. Outside of these few, most people are formulating scenarios that could happen and recognize that if those scenarios do happen, part of the concurrence was just coincidence and not brilliance.

Anyways this process of realignment is not in our control. We have no say in the outcome. Arguing isn't changing anything in the way events play out. If you can avoid taking things personally, what someone says or how they react to your statements, you can actually enjoy the various statements being made. And you can learn a lot about the various methods employed in arguing as well as guess the underlying personalities of people. That's as much fun as thinking of the various ideas that could solve the BE's problems imo.

 

[Adios]

We can agree to disagree. A conference can tolerate a few weak links. A conference made up entirely of weak schools with one or two good ones? The only example I can think of is Conf-USA, where Rice is a major outlier and SMU is solid. Florida State by the way is ranked #101, higher than almost all the schools in the NBE. They would be among the best schools in the proposed NBE. You arre judged by the company you keep.

Do you really think fans of college football care as long as the school is trying to better itself and is already being productive? Boise State has hardcore fans who actually wear team colors to games. Their fans are more hardcore than ours. And people here laugh at their school. Heck, I doubt the majority of college football or basketball fans graduated from the schools they cheer for. It's all really minor leagues or elite amateur circuits. Did any UConn fan or writer cry about Kemba Walker saying he only read one book? (lol) The bottom line is solid fanbases and schools trying to improve themselves. And FSU would rank, at highest, #6 amongst the new Big East schools. The rest of the schools DO have the potential to improve quite a bit, easily. It's not as if UCF has only people with low IQs attending (supposing low IQs can even be accepted).