Why the ACC took Louisville

[uconnell]

Let me know the next time you or anyone you know decides to go to Hartford just to hang around and enjoy the city.

So you go to Syracuse just to hang around and enjoy the city? Who knew!

 

[businesslawyer]

"SU has a very large Jewish population." You're making it very difficult to take you seriously, but I'll give it one more chance.

Of course Syracuse has many graduates in Metro New York. So does UConn, largely because about a quarter of the state is part of Metro New York. I gave you a piece of objective evidence that UConn is more important to the New York market than Syracuse. There are others, like the Silver numerical determination of how the New York market follows various college football teams. In place of hard data, you threw out a meaningless ethnic generalization. Am I saying that Syracuse has no ties to the New York market? If I said that, quote it (but of course I didn't).

So is this an argument or are you just stirring the pot. Because if this is an argument, I expect something more concrete than pointing to pipelines or the "shocking" fact that a good school in the Northeast has a Jewish population.

 

[Kolumbo]

I'm not even sure what your point is business lawyer. But for anyone to suggest that Syracuse's market is the greater Syracuse area is absolutely ridiculous. No offense.
My original point was that Pittsburgh and Syracuse have more going for them than Hartford does. The cities themselves. There is no reason to go to Hartford other than to go to the XL Center, which still happens to be a dump.

 

[CAHUSKY]

I'm not even sure what your point is business lawyer.

Not surprising

 

[specialisthusky]

Let me know the next time you or anyone you know decides to go to Hartford just to hang around and enjoy the city.

I live downtown and enjoy it daily.

 

[Calamitous]

LOL...you want to live in the middle of nowhere...try Tallahassee.

Syracuse sounds like a sister city....

Those are metropolises compared to Storrs, Blacksburg, State College and Morgantown. The difference is that UConn, VT, PSU and WVU have the pulse of an entire state versus the small towns they reside in.

 

[Kolumbo]

Those are metropolises compared to Storrs, Blacksburg, State College and Morgantown. The difference is that UConn, VT, PSU and WVU have the pulse of an entire state versus the small towns they reside in.

I agree with that. Every school situation is different, of course, and Syracuse's situation is that it captures much of NY and beyond because it is a large private nonsectarian research university. Apples and Oranges, if you will.

 

[Dooley]

My original point was that Pittsburgh and Syracuse have more going for them than Hartford does. The cities themselves. There is no reason to go to Hartford other than to go to the XL Center, which still happens to be a dump.

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I'll give you Pittsburgh (been there and it's a pretty cool town), but what exactly does Syracuse have that Hartford doesn't? If the only reason to go Hartford is to go the XL Center, how is that different than the only reason why anyone would go to Syracuse is to go to the Carrierdome?

 

[Kolumbo]

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I'll give you Pittsburgh (been there and it's a pretty cool town), but what exactly does Syracuse have that Hartford doesn't? If the only reason to go Hartford is to go the XL Center, how is that different than the only reason why anyone would go to Syracuse is to go to the Carrierdome?

Pittsburgh is far superior, there is no question. Several Colleges and pro sports teams, the three rivers, just a great city.
Syracuse is a small, scenic city with lots of festivals and a unique character, in my opinion. Combine a small city with a large university anywhere and it's a great environment. Just my opinion.
Hartford has been struggling for a long time. UCONN is in Storrs. I don't think the folks at Trinity look forward to spending the evening hanging out in downtown Hartford unless they have a police escort.

 

[The Funster]

And last night Louisville put on quite a show to vindicate/justify FSU's demands. I wanted/want UConn in the ACC, but last night was a pretty strong affirmation for FSU's/ACC's choice.

I don't think any UConn fan would dispute this. What many of us bemoan is the timing. Had Pasqualoni not sucked for 3 years, or, had the selection come before Pasqualoni, UConn would have compared more favorably to Louisville than we had when L was selected. Also key criteria for selection has never favored UConn at the various times for intense CR movement.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

You know...the selection of a program by a conference is sort of like a guy picking a girl to dance out of a wall of young ladies....

Sometimes the best dancer doesn't get asked, sometimes the "looker" doesn't get asked....or the girl with rich parents (markets).


What floats someone's boat is an individual thing.....and I suppose it is that way with a conference...

The B1G evidently likes the smart girls....the Big 12 is afraid to dance

Billy, every enterprise SHOULD start with a vision and a mission. Failing to start with the foundation jeopardizes everything. I can imagine that the ACC had, at one time, such a vision and mission, although likely a modest one. Throughout realignment, however, your conference has acted as though "improvised strategy" is a laudable business planning tool rather than the oxymoron it is. The children making decisions at the ACC may not be Florida State's biggest challenge but they are one of them.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

...

Hey Funster, you and I have exactly the same number of posts! At least we did when I wrote this.

 

[billybud]

For the ACC...until very recently, every decision revolved around basketball....

Swofford, as the ACC Commissioner, has been an owned animal of Carolina....heck, he was AD there for 20 years and has a building on campus named for him.

Most of us Nole fans loathe Swofford and his nepotism based contracting (son an executive at Raycom) as well as the decision to go into the northeast...We know that was a commitment made to Miami years ago...but it is not popular here.

FSU is a forced fit in the ACC with Cuse and BC in their division.....But then again, most of us are not really conference rah rah guys, we are Nole fans.

 

[frankthetank]

UConn did not get passed over for Louisville; we got passed over for Pitt. Our best chance to join the ACC was the prior raid that originally had us paired with Cuse. The last round was a great strategic move by the ACC (see FTT's comments above). They could have easily yelled checkmate after that move. Taking UConn and leaving Ville for the B12 at a time when FB was everything and many in the ACC were left questioning their southern heritage could not happen. Instead, they took the Ville, appeased their most (er, only) powerful FB schools, and left us sitting there.

The B12 aint touching us and I just remain unconvinced the BIG ever will.

ND in the ACC will be the turning point, the year they get an invite to the playoff while only playing a few conf games. The ACC will be forced to make ND a full member (which ND never will) or be asked to exclude them from consideration as a league member for the playoff. They might then want another team to create balance. Might.

Pitt was also another preemptive move by the ACC. Not too many people seem to remember this, but Pitt was publicly reported as being targeted by the Big 12 after A&M and Mizzou defected. As narrow-minded as the Big 12 leadership has been over the years, it wasn't their intent to just add West Virginia and leave them out on an island. The plan that was gaining traction was to add Pitt, WVU and Louisville all at the same time (which would have been a very solid expansion for the Big 12). Instead, the ACC got to Pitt first (and to be sure, Pitt definitely preferred to go to the more academically-oriented and geographically-friendly ACC compared to the Big 12). That limited (or even eliminated) the Big 12's options to expand to 12 in a way that wouldn't cut too much per school revenue, so that resulted instead in a one-team expansion showdown between WVU and Louisville (where WVU ultimately prevailed). John Swofford doesn't have a perfect record as ACC commissioner (any league that loses a founding member in a key market like Maryland has some type of underlying issue no matter how good the replacement might turn out to be), but he completely boxed in the Big 12 with his moves and left them in the position where any expansion would now (a) lose per school revenue and/or (b) be awful geographically.

 

[husky10]

SU has a very large Jewish population. In other words, SU is not just about the greater Syracuse area. You just might find that many SU grads are either from NYC or work in NYC. More so than UCONN grads. Do you dispute that? That is what I mean by direct pipeline.

Admins, can we look into Colorado fans hacking this poor guys BY account? I just can't believe anyone would post this without purposely trying to come across as idiotic.

 

[clmssun]

I assume you're serious. I have no idea why but I assume you are. You're "vindication" scenario is like trumpeting a replacement at second base because the new guy went two-for-four. Or calling a pitching change brilliant because the new pitcher's first pitch was a strike. What the hell is your/the ACC's time horizon on deciding on proposed new membership? We want the team that's likely be the best performer through the middle of next week. And what's your strategy? Find out who's most pissed off and let them pick the next member? I'm not saying Louisville won't turn out to be a good add. I like Louisville and wish then well. I'm saying that you're celebration of the Louisville add is more reminiscent of a 5-year-old wanting to be a fireman because the class visited the firehouse today than a deliberative response. I'm saying that that decision making process won't serve you well in the future. Perhaps you got lucky this time. Time will tell. But you've also gotten stung by Boston College and Miami, and likely Syracuse...maybe Pitt.

Louisville's football history goes back to 1912. Yes, there is a lot of futility in there; there is also Johnny Unitas in there. There is a serious commitment to football there right now. I was not referring to Louisville winning one game as vindication; I was referring to the national showcase of their recently enhanced (still young) on-campus stadium which was sold out and rocking, breaking its own attendance record for the third or fourth time over the last few years. Strong local television ratings. Strong local involvement and commitment, enhanced by a football team seemingly on the rise. What's not to like?

Football drives bus the now. The ACC has had football problems. The ACC needs to address its football problems. The B1G, SEC, and Pac-12 thrive on on-campus stadiums rocking with passion-filled fans. Louisville has been demonstrating that repeatedly in recent years, all while investing more money in facilities and spending good money on getting good coaches (and cutting bait when they realized they erred).

I think that strong arguments can be made that Louisville was the most valuable Big East property after the departures of Miami and Virginia Tech (and BC), and that they could/should have been taken ahead of Pittsburgh and Syracuse (and perhaps taken by Big XII instead of WVU).

For all the negative commentary about ACC expansion targets, I have yet to read anyone say whom they should have been taking (beyond UConn, of course).

In the recent expansion era:
Colorado, Utah, Nebraska, Texas A&M, Missouri, West Virginia, Texas Christian, Maryland and Rutgers have moved to conferences other than the ACC.

Who of the above schools is a "good fit" for the ACC? Obviously, Rutgers and West Virginia are the closest geographically. If you think those schools bring the ACC up to the levels of B1G (Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska, followed by Wisconsin), SEC (Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Florida, Texas A&M), or Pac-12 (UCLA, USC, Stanford, followed by Oregon and Washington).... well then, we disagree.

Does anyone think the ACC could have poached Penn State, Ohio State, Georgia, or Florida over the last ten years? I don't.

 

[pj]

John Swofford doesn't have a perfect record as ACC commissioner (any league that loses a founding member in a key market like Maryland has some type of underlying issue no matter how good the replacement might turn out to be), but he completely boxed in the Big 12 with his moves and left them in the position where any expansion would now (a) lose per school revenue and/or (b) be awful geographically.

So he's good at damaging the B12, but how is he good at helping the ACC?

 

[clmssun]

So he's good at damaging the B12, but how is he good at helping the ACC?

If anyone conjectured of the ACC poaching Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Florida, Georgia, or Tennessee (or UCLA, USC, or Stanford), that person would be labeled as "delusional".

Therefore, Swofford must ensure that the ACC is the strongest of all remaining conferences. He seems to have done that.

 

[pj]

Therefore, Swofford must ensure that the ACC is the strongest of all remaining conferences. He seems to have done that.

Stronger of the fourth and fifth conferences, you mean. The old "I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you" strategy.

But, taking smaller market schools to frustrate the B12 weakens the ACC in absolute terms and increases the gap with the B1G and SEC. That ultimately creates a risk that a strong school, UNC, UVa, VT, FSU, may leave.

 

[clmssun]

Stronger of the fourth and fifth conferences, you mean. The old "I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you" strategy.

But, taking smaller market schools to frustrate the B12 weakens the ACC in absolute terms and increases the gap with the B1G and SEC. That ultimately creates a risk that a strong school, UNC, UVa, VT, FSU, may leave.

So, again, whom should Swofford/ACC have targeted -- UConn and whom else?

Or do you argue the ACC would be better with 11? (+UConn, -BC, -Syracuse, -Pittsburgh, -Louisville)

 

[CL82]

How could it 'bite them in the butt'.

Most people understand at this point major college sports has nothing to do with academics.

Because it may serve as a point of dissention among conference members and as such could be serve a justification for leaving for leaving the conference.

 

[CL82]

There is no reason for this debate because it is not meaningful. Syracuse's market is greater Syracuse. UConn's market is not Hartford. It is the State of Connecticut.

Plus the areas in adjoining states, which just happens to include NYC.

 

[whaler11]

Because it may serve as a point of dissention among conference members and as such could be serve a justification for leaving for leaving the conference.

So you are proposing that someone is going to leave the ACC because they added Louisville? Not because they could make 20 million more elsewhere?

Didn't sound like the vote was too close, so it's seems like quite a stretch since everyone willingly entered the GOR after Maryland left.

I still don't get why any of the schools would be dissatisfied with them? Academics? Yeah, they really take academics seriously at places like UNC.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Pitt was also another preemptive move by the ACC. Not too many people seem to remember this, but Pitt was publicly reported as being targeted by the Big 12 after A&M and Mizzou defected. As narrow-minded as the Big 12 leadership has been over the years, it wasn't their intent to just add West Virginia and leave them out on an island. The plan that was gaining traction was to add Pitt, WVU and Louisville all at the same time (which would have been a very solid expansion for the Big 12). Instead, the ACC got to Pitt first (and to be sure, Pitt definitely preferred to go to the more academically-oriented and geographically-friendly ACC compared to the Big 12). That limited (or even eliminated) the Big 12's options to expand to 12 in a way that wouldn't cut too much per school revenue, so that resulted instead in a one-team expansion showdown between WVU and Louisville (where WVU ultimately prevailed). John Swofford doesn't have a perfect record as ACC commissioner (any league that loses a founding member in a key market like Maryland has some type of underlying issue no matter how good the replacement might turn out to be), but he completely boxed in the Big 12 with his moves and left them in the position where any expansion would now (a) lose per school revenue and/or (b) be awful geographically.

You don't add members to a partnership solely because you are afraid someone else will add them. The Big 12 could have added WVU, Louisville and Cincinnati, or sub BYU for one of them, but chose not to for whatever reason. It had little to do with what the ACC was doing. And why does the ACC care about the Big 12 anyway? They care about their own viewers. Do people really think that Swofford is engaging in some kind of long-ball strategy to destabilize a conference with Texas and Oklahoma? Does adding Cincinnati and BYU (if the Big 12 chooses to expand) versus Pitt and Louisville really matter to Texas?

The ACC chose Syracuse, Pitt and Louisville because it thought those 3 were the most valuable properties remaining. That is on UConn's Administration, not anyone else.

 

[Fishy]

DeFilippo said the move was dictated in part by the expansion of the Southeastern Conference to include Texas A&M, which prompted the Big 12 to inquire about Pittsburgh, which is in the Northeast, an area in which the ACC felt it necessary to expand.

“We wanted new playmates and we wanted Eastern playmates,’’ said DeFilippo. “When the Big 12 inquired about Pittsburgh, we asked, ‘Why let them come into our area?’ ’’

 

[Husky25]

Pittsburgh is about as west as they can be without being considered Midwest.

 

[John Greene]

DeFilippo said the move was dictated in part by the expansion of the Southeastern Conference to include Texas A&M, which prompted the Big 12 to inquire about Pittsburgh, which is in the Northeast, an area in which the ACC felt it necessary to expand.

“We wanted new playmates and we wanted Eastern playmates,’’ said DeFilippo. “When the Big 12 inquired about Pittsburgh, we asked, ‘Why let them come into our area?’ ’’

Quoting "da flippa" is like quoting my deceased crazy uncle Fred. He had a habit of seeing himself at the center of everything. Even when he was 1000 miles away.

On second thought uncle Fred would have fit right in on the BY.

 

[pj]

DeFilippo said the move was dictated in part by the expansion of the Southeastern Conference to include Texas A&M, which prompted the Big 12 to inquire about Pittsburgh, which is in the Northeast, an area in which the ACC felt it necessary to expand.

“We wanted new playmates and we wanted Eastern playmates,’’ said DeFilippo. “When the Big 12 inquired about Pittsburgh, we asked, ‘Why let them come into our area?’ ’’

Eastern playmates, but not too Eastern.

In our area -- but not too in our area.

 

[Calamitous]

I think that strong arguments can be made that Louisville was the most valuable Big East property after the departures of Miami and Virginia Tech (and BC), and that they could/should have been taken ahead of Pittsburgh and Syracuse (and perhaps taken by Big XII instead of WVU).

Product-wise, the Big XII made the right move with WVU over UL. Geographically, both WVU and UL just don't belong in the Big XII. As for the ACC, if I knew we were going to bend the "academic" rules and allow UL a few years ago, then I would have preferred we added WVU and UConn instead of Syracuse and Pitt back in 2011 (note: UConn is not in the same boat academically as WVU or UL). Both are state flagships with rabid followings. Everyone cares about TV markets these days. I say follow the SEC model and invite schools based on fans, passion and state ownership.

To me, WVU will always have the majority presence for their state. That will never change even if Marshall becomes good in a bunch of sports like Louisville. UL is very localized like Miami and Pitt. If UL one day becomes a national power like the Canes used to be, then UL will have a mystique about them. Unfortunately for them, I think UL will struggle with teams like NCSU, UVa and Pitt while at the same time knocking off teams like Miami, Clemson, FSU and VT.

 

[UConn990411]

But they didn't have to choose one over the other. And they're worse off because they did.