Why Regional Games Matter

[Carl Spackler]

The one nitpick with this post is that our NYC presense in basketball is due to fans traveling in from CT.

That's when it comes to actual ticket sales for events, for sure. No argument, but that's not the full extent by any means. The discussion about BC ticket sales to the Pinstripe Bowl is comical. Had UCONN being playing PSU in that game, the ticket prices for Yankee Stadium would match, if not exceed the prices for tickets going for the first time 4 team playoff bowls, and national championship game. We put more fans that BC brought to Yankee Stadium, there for a game against Army where both teams were 2-6.

We extend into New Jersey too, when it comes to that around basketball, as the recent Duke game showed. It was a growing thing that unfortunately became a casualty with the television negotiations with ESPN for the AAC conference, but we still are broadcast low level popularity games on SNY in New York City, for hoops. That's market presence that was growing rapidly, and still exists, just on smaller scale now due to the national broadcasts that ESPN carries now for AAC hoops games.

The problem we face now, is one of simple business interactions. 99% of business transactions happen because of personal relationships, and the number of people that vote on things like conference affiliation is extremely small. UCONN leadership failed for far too long, to cultivate the kinds of business relationships among the people that matter and vote on such things, to be included the last time votes were held.

That UCONN belongs in any major intercollegiate conference that would be bold enough to try to lay claim to the Northeast demographic, is undeniable. We just need to make sure that the next time a group of people decide to vote on such matters, that we've cultivated the relationships.

I would hope that President Susan, and her fat raise, have been doing this non-stop, and will continue to do so.

 

[06029]

Just for a little reality check, both schools received the same ticket allotment from the bowl (11,000) and both schools sold out their allotments. PSU fans gobbled up the secondary market ticket sales and had the 3 or 4:1 advantage in the stadium. To talk about Uconn showing up at a bowl game with more fans versus PSU is a little skewed. PSU FB fans are a cult and like a cult they do anything to be at the game. They would have gobbled up almost as many tickets no matter the opponent.

The BIGGEST bowl Ucoinn played in, they could not sell out their allotment. I know, the secondary market was cheaper but Uconn fans still did not buy the meaningful tickets. And that will haunt Uconn for a long time.

How are people going to explain BC's irrelevance when the TV ratings come out again this year? I will bet that the Pinstripe has higher ratings than a lot of other bowl games so far because it was an entertaining game and had a good time slot. Will the ratings be because of PSU (kind of like the logic when the BC/USC bowl game had good ratings years ago)?

And Carl, JoePa nixed the original eastern super conference that would have been based on the Big 10 model. This was several years before the Big East was formed. PSU was like ND at that time. Fiercely independent and PSU FB was as popular, or more, as ND in every major northeastern market. He had no desire to be more than part of the East Indies (as they were called at that time). Better chance for undefeated seasons and playing in a bowl game (there were far fewer then). He did everything he could to keep any other eastern FB program beneath PSU. It is not coincidence that he took PSU to the Big 10 when the old BE FB conference with Miami started to dominate eastern football.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Just for a little reality check, both schools received the same ticket allotment from the bowl (11,000) and both schools sold out their allotments. PSU fans gobbled up the secondary market ticket sales and had the 3 or 4:1 advantage in the stadium. To talk about Uconn showing up at a bowl game with more fans versus PSU is a little skewed. PSU FB fans are a cult and like a cult they do anything to be at the game. They would have gobbled up almost as many tickets no matter the opponent.

The BIGGEST bowl Ucoinn played in, they could not sell out their allotment. I know, the secondary market was cheaper but Uconn fans still did not buy the meaningful tickets. And that will haunt Uconn for a long time.

How are people going to explain BC's irrelevance when the TV ratings come out again this year? I will bet that the Pinstripe has higher ratings than a lot of other bowl games so far because it was an entertaining game and had a good time slot. Will the ratings be because of PSU (kind of like the logic when the BC/USC bowl game had good ratings years ago)?

And Carl, JoePa nixed the original eastern super conference that would have been based on the Big 10 model. This was several years before the Big East was formed. PSU was like ND at that time. Fiercely independent and PSU FB was as popular, or more, as ND in every major northeastern market. He had no desire to be more than part of the East Indies (as they were called at that time). Better chance for undefeated seasons and playing in a bowl game (there were far fewer then). He did everything he could to keep any other eastern FB program beneath PSU. It is not coincidence that he took PSU to the Big 10 when the old BE FB conference with Miami started to dominate eastern football.

paterno was a fierce about independence, as long as it made sense, and that was right up to the early 1980s. No argument from me there.

Paterno did try to organize a northeastern all sports conference in the time period of the late 1970s and early 1980s, and it failed, and it failed mostly because the leadership of those schools already mentioned did not adhere to the same conceptual ideas about the future that JoePa had. Toner was a huge proponent of the majority of northeast football going the 1-AA route which was actually developed and labeled as a concept as "cost containment division 1 football". The Ivy League hung on to 1A status as long as it could, because money is no issue for them, until the stadium capacity clause was added to the classification of 1A football, and Paterno was instrumental in adding that stadium capacity thing. The schools like Syracuse, Pitt and BC did not have the foresight that JoePa had regarding the future of independent football, and by 1979-80 the Big East basketball conference was up and rolling. The BE conference itself, provided a second opportunity for JoePa to get together a northeastern based conference for all sports including football, without having to pull Syracuse, BC and PItt out of the big east for basketball, but the leadership of the conference at the time voted against it, and JoePa had no reason to put PSU basketball only in the Big East.

You are incorrect about Miami too. PSU was in the big10 by 1990. Miami was dominating college football as an independent up through that time, and the Big East football conference did not play it's first conference game until 1992. The incorporation of Miami into the Big EAst conference, was a running joke for Big East basketball schools. I could never believe how poorly that university athletic department was treated, even by the likes of UCONN. They brought a multiple national championship winning football team to the big east, and it was largely ignored by the basketball leadership until they left after 10 years.

I have no idea what you mean by the "original eastern super conference based on a big10 model." Can you elaborate on that?

edit: BTW: Paterno was not set on keeping "EVERY" northeastern program beneath PSU - he didn't want to compete for recruits with the Ivy league, because he knew that smart football players are better than dumb football players. He was fine with having the likes of Syracuse, Pitt and BC regularly on the schedule, and UCONN was a place that he also recognized had potential. Tom Jackson came to UCONN from Penn State, and learned everything he knew about recruiting from Paterno, and built a winning 1-AA program. Paterno's primary goal was to squash the Ivy League as recruiting competition for the very top athletes for football, and the label of 1A vs. 1-AA football is what did the trick. Most of the old football coaches that were intimately involved in all this, are dead now or very advanced age, but it's out there if you want to research it. Ivy League recruiting at the top level died in 1982. Yale was a top 25 program when the big east discussions that led up to the actual 5-3 vote that excluded PSU were happening.

 

[Stainmaster]

Who is " we " ? From my readings here on occasion, I come away with the impression that somehow BC up in Massachusetts is mostly responsible for Uconn at the bottom of the AAC in football. If you are telling me now that Hathaway and Uconn itself is mostly responsible for its current state of its football program, then that is probably something that I just needed to read on here, as I had not read it here before. That said, I only come on here occassionally, so its possible that Hathaway and Pasqualoni are known by you all as mostly responsible for the current state of the Uconn football program. Fair enough.

Get the duck* out of here.

 

[Ldandy]

paterno was a fierce about independence, as long as it made sense, and that was right up to the early 1980s. No argument from me there.

Paterno did try to organize a northeastern all sports conference in the time period of the late 1970s and early 1980s, and it failed, and it failed mostly because the leadership of those schools already mentioned did not adhere to the same conceptual ideas about the future that JoePa had. Toner was a huge proponent of the majority of northeast football going the 1-AA route which was actually developed and labeled as a concept as "cost containment division 1 football". The Ivy League hung on to 1A status as long as it could, because money is no issue for them, until the stadium capacity clause was added to the classification of 1A football, and Paterno was instrumental in adding that stadium capacity thing. The schools like Syracuse, Pitt and BC did not have the foresight that JoePa had regarding the future of independent football, and by 1979-80 the Big East basketball conference was up and rolling. The BE conference itself, provided a second opportunity for JoePa to get together a northeastern based conference for all sports including football, without having to pull Syracuse, BC and PItt out of the big east for basketball, but the leadership of the conference at the time voted against it, and JoePa had no reason to put PSU basketball only in the Big East.

You are incorrect about Miami too. PSU was in the big10 by 1990. Miami was dominating college football as an independent up through that time, and the Big East football conference did not play it's first conference game until 1992. The incorporation of Miami into the Big EAst conference, was a running joke for Big East basketball schools. I could never believe how poorly that university athletic department was treated, even by the likes of UCONN. They brought a multiple national championship winning football team to the big east, and it was largely ignored by the basketball leadership until they left after 10 years.

I have no idea what you mean by the "original eastern super conference based on a big10 model." Can you elaborate on that?

edit: BTW: Paterno was not set on keeping "EVERY" northeastern program beneath PSU - he didn't want to compete for recruits with the Ivy league, because he knew that smart football players are better than dumb football players. He was fine with having the likes of Syracuse, Pitt and BC regularly on the schedule, and UCONN was a place that he also recognized had potential. Tom Jackson came to UCONN from Penn State, and learned everything he knew about recruiting from Paterno, and built a winning 1-AA program. Paterno's primary goal was to squash the Ivy League as recruiting competition for the very top athletes for football, and the label of 1A vs. 1-AA football is what did the trick. Most of the old football coaches that were intimately involved in all this, are dead now or very advanced age, but it's out there if you want to research it. Ivy League recruiting at the top level died in 1982. Yale was a top 25 program when the big east discussions that led up to the actual 5-3 vote that excluded PSU were happening.

Good post. Not surprised that sPitters like Miko and fans of other old time eastern schools like BC and Syracuse have a different recollection of how things played out. What's sad is that if everyone was able to put their petty jealousies and distrust aside then, we might have something today that all of us could enjoy.

P5 Eastern Conference

North
BC
UCONN
Cuse
RU
PSU
Pitt

South
Navy
ND
VPI
WVU
Lville
Miami

 

[Carl Spackler]

LOL - no idea that miko poster was a Pitt person. Over the holidays talking with friends and relatives, I have both that live in Pittsburgh, and college football. We talked about the perception and reality.

This past season, my friend bought tickets for his family for PItt, ACC game. He said he got 50 yard line seats for $8 each. those of us that have visited Heinz field in the past for Pitt football games, know that's a high price. He invited lots of friends and family to the game - bought a ton of seats. His elderly uncle - who dates back to the ancient era of Pitt football and hasn't been to a game in eons asked him: "what the hell are you doing getting us tickets in the last row, I can't climb those stairs!!" he couldn't believe he was field level at the 50 yard line for $8.

 

[06029]

You guys are nuts if you think Paterno even gave Uconn 1 second of thought back in the 1980's even with Tom Jackson. There is noting anywhere that even suggests he thought about Uconn in FB.

PSU and Pitt would never see eye to eye on being in the same conference. I remember watching the Pitt-PSU game annually and loving it as a kid in CT in the 1970's. Loved it as much as watching Bama and USC when they were on (although as a teen, I liked the cheerleaders in those games way more). It is a shame that series ended,

There were more attempts at a conference from the 1970's and 1980's than you like to reference. Paterno did have his pre-Big East idea but the way he wanted it to go and how the money would have been split was decidely advantageous to PSU. It is only the PSU side that is publicized. I know there were interviews with Jake from Cuse and I know there is a book with quotes from Flynn that has a different spin but I don't have time to find them. Multiple sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle. And given the cult like nature of PSU fans and the idolization of JoePa, I think they embellish how visionary he was and down play the unfavorable terms he was pushing.

Back to the OP, Uconn should be finding a way to schedule a game against PSU, anytime, anywhere. Regional games do matter.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Oh come on, reading comprehension is low today. Zip code, you're drawing conclusions that aren't written in what I've typed. UCONN was just a blip on the 1-AA radar for major college football in the early 1980s. Tom Jackson made it into a winning program, by recruiting, to the 1-AA profile of athlete, but not a program that was able to get over the hump into the national 1-AA playoff picture. Holtz repeated the job, and built upon it, to create a winning 1-AA team that could compete in the national playoff format, Edsall came in and upgraded the recruiting to 1A and created a winning team, but not one that could get into the national picture of relevance, but did go to, and win bowl games.

The difference between high level 1-AA programs, and 1A programs - mostly applies to the starting lineups and depth charts at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball.

As all of this applies to college football, and the force that drives the proverbial bus: the fan interest and fan following and culture of sport in that respect: The first real change in intercollegiate athletics in New England started with the Ivy League rejecting post season college football in the late 1950s. The creation of the 1A and 1-AA classifications of football in the late 1970s, out of the division 1, very shortly after the actual creation of division 1, 2 and 3 in the NCAA in the early 1970's, is the second major change and focal point for intercollegiate athletics culture in New England. The creation of the Big East basketball conference from there - had 30 year history of intimate involvement in prohibiting the formation of a northeastern based backbone of an all sports conference. Boston College was involved in all of that, and aside from winning the TV revenue payout part of it all, has really destroyed the development of their own legitimate markets and fanbase with their own actions and Syracuse and Pitt are set to follow in their footsteps.

As for actual football - all of those same things - have to do with one thing and one thing only - football recruiting. The label of 1-AA to a football program was the death bell for northeastern based football programs to expect to attract the best, highest profile athletes. For Boston College - and specifically AD Eugene with Father Leahy's blessings, having the vast majority of programs other than Syracuse, Pitt and PSU to compete with regarding that label, was ok - but the concept that UCONN have that label of 1A was too much competition in recruiting for their own good, and yet another shot to their own foot, in developing their own market and fanbase.

The thing about BC - is where would they be, if the ACC paycheck goes away? Not good. That's all they got - they sacrificed everything meaningful about athletic rivalry and competition in their own market, for an ACC paycheck.

It's not accident that Harvard football is better draw than BC football in Boston. It's also not an accident that Yale drew more fans to a game this past season than showed up at Rentschler for a football game the same day.

If BC and UCONN played each other regularly, that would never happen.

 

[Carl Spackler]

FWIW: Off topic, but if you ever want to really be confused about New England college athletics and the NCAA divisions and classifications and recruiting, try figuring out what division 1, 2, and 3 ncaa hockey means and how the ECAC and Hockey East, and Big 10 fit into it all. Phew - that's nuts.

 

[Carl Spackler]

if there is a single writer out there that would actually follow up on this discussion that Pudge initiated BTW - not me - a good place to start would be with Coach Andy Talley at Villanova. He's been there through it all, and Villanova - and their botching of the 1A upgrade proposal in 2010-2011 was the final breaking point of the Big East conference. Villanova is a case study, for private urban centered schools that can have successful football programs within and academic and athletic mission at the 1-AA level.

What he'll also tell you beyond how the cost containment bracket of division 1 football can be successful, is that no matter how successful you are, you don't make any money and nobody watches, and you can't recruit against the worst of the division 1A successfully.

 

[APA]

Oh come on, reading comprehension is low today. Zip code, you're drawing conclusions that aren't written in what I've typed. UCONN was just a blip on the 1-AA radar for major college football in the early 1980s. Tom Jackson made it into a winning program, by recruiting, to the 1-AA profile of athlete, but not a program that was able to get over the hump into the national 1-AA playoff picture. Holtz repeated the job, and built upon it, to create a winning 1-AA team that could compete in the national playoff format, Edsall came in and upgraded the recruiting to 1A and created a winning team, but not one that could get into the national picture of relevance, but did go to, and win bowl games.

The difference between high level 1-AA programs, and 1A programs - mostly applies to the starting lineups and depth charts at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball.

As all of this applies to college football, and the force that drives the proverbial bus: the fan interest and fan following and culture of sport in that respect: The first real change in intercollegiate athletics in New England started with the Ivy League rejecting post season college football in the late 1950s. The creation of the 1A and 1-AA classifications of football in the late 1970s, out of the division 1, very shortly after the actual creation of division 1, 2 and 3 in the NCAA in the early 1970's, is the second major change and focal point for intercollegiate athletics culture in New England. The creation of the Big East basketball conference from there - had 30 year history of intimate involvement in prohibiting the formation of a northeastern based backbone of an all sports conference. Boston College was involved in all of that, and aside from winning the TV revenue payout part of it all, has really destroyed the development of their own legitimate markets and fanbase with their own actions and Syracuse and Pitt are set to follow in their footsteps.

As for actual football - all of those same things - have to do with one thing and one thing only - football recruiting. The label of 1-AA to a football program was the death bell for northeastern based football programs to expect to attract the best, highest profile athletes. For Boston College - and specifically AD Eugene with Father Leahy's blessings, having the vast majority of programs other than Syracuse, Pitt and PSU to compete with regarding that label, was ok - but the concept that UCONN have that label of 1A was too much competition in recruiting for their own good, and yet another shot to their own foot, in developing their own market and fanbase.

The thing about BC - is where would they be, if the ACC paycheck goes away? Not good. That's all they got - they sacrificed everything meaningful about athletic rivalry and competition in their own market, for an ACC paycheck.

It's not accident that Harvard football is better draw than BC football in Boston. It's also not an accident that Yale drew more fans to a game this past season than showed up at Rentschler for a football game the same day.

If BC and UCONN played each other regularly, that would never happen.

UConn would have done the same thing, given the chance. And there's no reason to believe that check's going anywhere.

 

[Yawkey Way]

And then there are the facts : Home Game Attendance (average and total ):

2013.... Harvard 12, o67..... BC 33,006 ( total 2013 home attendance.. Harvard, 60,334... BC 198,035 )

2014 Harvard 11,858.........BC, 34,270

all of BC's football games ( home and away ) were covered on TV outlets in Boston. The only game covered on TV for Harvard in both years in Boston market was the Harvard- Yale Game. The claim that Harvard Football is a " better draw in Boston " throughout the Fall, is as silly as someone claiming that Yale Football is a bigger draw in New Haven, CT. than Uconn football is.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2013.pdf

 

[Carl Spackler]

Lol. so predictable these Boston College posters. They're like little toys. You can turn them on and play with them for a little while and then turn them off. makes you wonder about the kind of education you get there.

 

[Yawkey Way]

Lol. so predictable these Boston College posters. They're like little toys. You can turn them on and play with them for a little while and then turn them off. makes you wonder about the kind of education you get there.

I have no idea what kind of education they provide at either Uconn or BC, as I went to neither school. So I could care less about any of that. That said, its quite predictable you'd take the tack of changing the subject as your comment above that Harvard football is more of a draw in Boston than BC was verifiably shown to be such a silly and inaccurate assessment and observation. My guess, you don't live, nor work in Boston, so this might explain why your toy broke with your ridiculous observation of Harvard Football being a bigger and better draw than BC football in Boston.

 

[J187Money]

We need to have a trophy in honor of Physics Phil.

Holy . I will never forget the day I came back to my dorm freshman year and he was sitting in my room with my roommate. WTF!

 

[Adios]

Holy . I will never forget the day I came back to my dorm freshman year and he was sitting in my room with my roommate. WTF!

I hung out with him, too. Gets lonely during the summer sessions. Even got to ride around in his car.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I have no idea what kind of education they provide at either Uconn or BC, as I went to neither school. So I could care less about any of that. That said, its quite predictable you'd take the tack of changing the subject as your comment above that Harvard football is more of a draw in Boston than BC was verifiably shown to be such a silly and inaccurate assessment and observation. My guess, you don't live, nor work in Boston, so this might explain why your toy broke with your ridiculous observation of Harvard Football being a bigger and better draw than BC football in Boston.

Think what you want, I know I wrote that because it would get reaction from the BC nincompoops like you around here. The facts are that when UCONN played Temple this past season in September on a Saturday afternoon at 4pm, we drew a reported attendance of 27,775. Yale played Army at the Yale Bowl the same day at 1pm and drew 34,142. Not on topic, but sort of - later in the season - UCONN played Army at Yankee Stadium and reported attendance was 27,453. This is all for teams that are sucky right now, and had no chance of post season.

Now, in Cambridge on Nov. 22, Yale played Harvard - in front of a reported 31,062. BC was at FSU that day. But on Sat. Nov. 29, BC was home against Syracuse - which the media giant and Syracuse media talking head trenchmen in Bristol, CT would have the propaganda machine make the "rivalry" in the region - drew a reported 30,267 in Chestnut Hill.

All of those numbers you can verify sparky, if you want.

The only true regional rivalry in this area is Yale and Harvard, and anything involving Army and Navy. Boston College has been an instrumentall part of making that happen for 30+ years, and if BC leadership weren't such p***Sies when it comes to competition with UCONN in football recruiting and actual competition on the field, my opinion and conclusion is that there is no way in hell, that Harvard or Yale would ever outdraw a UCONN or BC game - against anyone, and a regular UCONN v. BC game would be a guaranteed annual sellout.

So go back to your hole.

 

[Carl Spackler]

FWIW: Dealing in fact: for UCONN football, all time, the programs we have played the most are UMASS and URI. We've played UMASS once, since 1998 and upgrading and drew 35,270 in early 2012. We'll play again not to far away at Gillette.

BC played UMASS in early 2014 at GIllette, and drew 30,479,.

We'll have a real data to compare there for Gillette in 2016.


the underlying theme to all of this, is the fact that BC consciously, and intentionally has avoided competition with UCONN in football and taken action to prevent equal level playing field in recruiting., and the premise that can be drawn from that, that it has not only damaged their own program's exposure, growth and popularity in it's own market, but it has handcuffed and stunted growth of intercollegiate rivalry at the top level of division 1 in all of New England.

Happy New Year to all UCONN fans, and let 2015 be a year that brings us a New Year's bowl.